Anyone else disappointed with the Stormcloak questline?

[Lachdonin]

Did the Imperials have any victories in the Great War other than the Battle of Red Ring? For anyone to suggest the Imperials "got their act together and began to beat the AD back into retreat" is ludicrous. In fact, they essentially surrendered to the very terms that were getting shoved down their throat which started the war - immediately after said victory.

 

A; There was no surrender. Our information on the Concordant is incomplete. No treaty is that one sided. It simply doesn't happen. Even unconditional surrenders come with terms for both sides.

 

B; The Empire won several successful battles both in Cyrodiil and, particularly, in Hammerfell. They just couldn't win the important ones from the back foot, and to Titus Mede's credit, he knew he had to regroup and change tact.

 

C; Most of Hammerfell's ability to hold was, in fact, caused by the Empire. The releasing of hundreds of 'injured' Legionaries from service in order to defend Hammerfell is the only reason they were able to hold on long enough for the Second Treaty of Stro M'kai.

 

D; The didn't agree to the terms that the Thalmor were trying to force on them during the war, because there were no terms. The Domminion wants to EXTERMINATE the race of man. All of them. Imperial, Nord, Redguard. Everything. There was no planned terms of ruler ship, it was a genocidal purge.

[fifteenspades]

To be fair Japans Unconditional Surrender to the Allies in WWII was one sided, they asked that the terms not include anything related to taking power from it's ruler but that was a request not a demand. therefore still Unconditional Surrender.

[Lachdonin]

To be fair Japans Unconditional Surrender to the Allies in WWII was one sided, they asked that the terms not include anything related to taking power from it's ruler but that was a request not a demand. therefore still Unconditional Surrender.

 

The negotiation of the treaty was far more complicated than just that. There were economic concerns for Japan, for instance, which were negotiated around, giving them a source of economic support (The US) and at the same time giving the US something of a guaranteed market.

 

Even then, while not included in the terms of the initial surrender, peace-treaty negotiations did ensure that the US was involved in the treatment of victims and rebuilding of the bombed cities (you know which bombs). Secretly, of course, the Americans wanted to get in there and run their tests, but anyway...

 

The Japanese surrender is definitely one of the most one sided treaties in history, but even it still required contributions and obligations from both parties.

[WolfPalatine]

A lot of people seem to talk about the Imperial vs. Stormcloak argument, but few want to talk about the Aldmeri Dominion, except as those "fanatic, anti-Talos justiciars".

 

Here's some talking points from the Dominion's viewpoint -

 

1) General Talos (Tiber Septim) was not exactly a saint when he conquered Summerset Isles during the formation of his Empire. He wrecked the Aldmeri fleet first, allowed pirates to ravage the Isles continuously for years, so that when he came through with his forces, he only had an exhausted and weakened Dominion Army to deal with. Following this, all traces of the old Aldmeris culture was stomped out (viciously, I might add) for the Human cultural influence to grow.

 

2) The Altmer were never particularly well-liked or put into positions of power (except High-Chancellor Ocato during the Oblivion Crisis) and were continuously treated as second-rate. Unequal treatment throughout Imperial Rule on Summerset Isle bred considerable resentment among the more nationalist Altmer.

 

3) They were ruled in theory by a King who was in reality little more than an Empire-appointed puppet ruler, and the Summerset Isles, from all accounts (especially Imperial accounts) was functioning more as a client state than a full-fledged Imperial province. For a race that prided itself on independence and superiority over man, this must have been a humiliating situation. Which also explains the sudden Nationalist upsurge of the Thalmor during the Oblivion Crisis (see the book series "Rising Threat" in-game for this very subtle hint).

 

4) The Eight Divinies of Cyrodiil was the dominant pantheon of Worship for thousands of years since the slave-revolt of Alessia and the merging of the Elvish and Nord deities. Now, the worship of a "Ninth Divine" (AKA Talos) formed purely out of Human Racial Chauvinism and in reverence to a figure who had subjugated (very ruthlessly) the Aldmeri peoples was imposed upon them by a Human-ruled Empire. For over 400 years. Not an exactly congenial situation. And most Elves live for over a thousand years or more (just look at that Dark Elf wizard Neloth of Telvanni). So they would remember a great deal - I can bet that the highest echelons of the Thalmor leadership were alive (as youngsters in their twenties and thirties) when General Talos had his little excursion on Summerset Isle.

 

All things considered, while the Dominion may be called brutal, ruthless, etc. etc., the fact remains - and will remain - that the High Elves have VERY strong reasons to hate Talos and his Empire, not to mention anybody who associates themselves with a Man whom the Altmer regard as a butcher and a ruthless, unprincipled conqueror, and whom the Humans worship as a God, no less.

 

Is there really any surprise, considering all this, that the Thalmor want revenge? The first order of things they would do, as revenge, would be to undo EVERYTHING Talos stood for, and the Empire and especially the Nords would be squarely on top of their hit-list, so to speak.

 

To put it more simply, whether one likes it or not, the Humans had it coming. The Nords, in particular, have a very nasty reputation, even among Humans, as bloodthirsty and savage barbarians who were responsible for the near-total genocide of an ancient Elven Empire (the Falmer - though admittedly, that was retaliatory, but to slaughter unceremoniously a whole Race is inexcusable), who attempted to subjugate Resdayn (modern day Morrowind) and from amongst whom one of the most hated Human figures among the Elves, namely Tiber Septim, was born. Not to mention their brutal repression and subjugation (again under Tiber Septim, no surprise) of the native Bretons in the Reach and their local culture and customs - ironically, not unlike (and far more brutal than) the Thalmor crackdown on Talos Worshipers.

 

All things considered, I don't feel any sympathy either for the Nords, who deserve every ounce of suffering inflicted upon them, or the Empire, which is just getting it's comeuppance for centuries of misery inflicted on the Altmer.

[Lachdonin]

While all true... The problem with the Thalmor revolves around Talos. Talos IS a god. That is irrefutable. He's the new-Lorkhan, fused with Aka-tusk, and a third divine pillar of Mundus (the First being Ada-mantia, the second Red Mountain). He was also not a Nord... Or rather, not JUST a Nord. There is a rather confusing, though enlightening thread over on the Beth fourms which indicates that Tiber Septim may have been the first PC.

 

While they may be ethically justified in many of their actions (particularly when one considers that Numidium is still smashing Alinor and destroying timelines) their beef with Talos runs far deeper than just retribution for the actions of the races of man. It comes from a desire to undo creation, to break the Impossipoint and reset the cosmos to the roiling, limitless potential of the Dawn.

 

The fact is, that just isn't safe. The fate of the Dwemer is proof that there is not enough divinity left in the Meri races to return to their Dawn-Godhood. The Thalmor plan, will, frankly, kill EVERYONE. Justified grievance or not, they are off their rocker.

[fraquar]

 

Did the Imperials have any victories in the Great War other than the Battle of Red Ring? For anyone to suggest the Imperials "got their act together and began to beat the AD back into retreat" is ludicrous. In fact, they essentially surrendered to the very terms that were getting shoved down their throat which started the war - immediately after said victory.

 

A; There was no surrender. Our information on the Concordant is incomplete. No treaty is that one sided. It simply doesn't happen. Even unconditional surrenders come with terms for both sides.

 

B; The Empire won several successful battles both in Cyrodiil and, particularly, in Hammerfell. They just couldn't win the important ones from the back foot, and to Titus Mede's credit, he knew he had to regroup and change tact.

 

C; Most of Hammerfell's ability to hold was, in fact, caused by the Empire. The releasing of hundreds of 'injured' Legionaries from service in order to defend Hammerfell is the only reason they were able to hold on long enough for the Second Treaty of Stro M'kai.

 

D; The didn't agree to the terms that the Thalmor were trying to force on them during the war, because there were no terms. The Domminion wants to EXTERMINATE the race of man. All of them. Imperial, Nord, Redguard. Everything. There was no planned terms of ruler ship, it was a genocidal purge.

 

It's pretty simple. If I tell you to give me $100 and you choose to tell me to go pound sand - that's all find an dandy (lets start the Great War over that $100). When you later sue for peace terms and agree to pay me $100 - that is surrendering. Can't be put any plainer than that.

[Lachdonin]

But... That's not even remotely what the Great War was about.

 

The Thalmor demanded Hammerfell (not just southern Hammerfell) knowing full well they would be refused. They would then have the political leverage to invade the Empire, which is step 1 in destroying the world.

 

It would be more like you telling me to give you $100, knowing i didn't have it to give to you, just because you wanted to justify to yourself that you murdering me was ethical.

[Biohazard186]

Even though it's already been announced that there will be no more DLC I still hope one gets released where you can take the fight to the Thalmor because, rather than starting a new character in a new game, I'd really like to reprise my role as the Dragonborn and raise hell on that battlefield.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Biohazard186

[Lachdonin]

Even though it's already been announced that there will be no more DLC I still hope one gets released where you can take the fight to the Thalmor because, rather than starting a new character in a new game, I'd really like to reprise my role as the Dragonborn and raise hell on that battlefield.

 

Far more likely the Dominion will serve as an antagonist which we will deal with over several games. Or, the problem will suddenly be replaced by more pressing concerns... such as the Landfall. Or maybe even the rise of the Ayleidoon Hegemony (we're not sure how long they lasted, really... only that in the 9th Era the Hist were beating them senseless).

 

Really though, a DLC about beating the Thalmor would be stupid. It's far, far too big a story to be told as a DLC.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Lachdonin

[WolfPalatine]

@ Lachdonin

 

One Battlespire plus the Illiac Bay Incident (Warp in the West) shows that NO mortal species can attempt to act divine. Not the Mer, not Men, not the Beastfolk.

 

No one is denying the Thalmor are twisted - I have stated that they're brutal and cold to an appalling degree. I merely meant to indicate that there are no "Good Guys" in Tamriel, nor are there any "Bad Guys". There are only grey sides.

 

In-game, the finest example is that quest "In my Time of Need". Both claim to be against the Aldmeri Dominion, both claim that they represent Hammerfell's mindset (very subtly, in the case of Saadia). More likely, it is just another Crowns vs. Forebears argument disguised, with both sides accusing the other of treachery.

 

All said and done, all sides deserve the misery they face. Which side you're on depends entirely on your personal preferences. I like the beast races more (Khajiit especially), some may prefer the Mer as PCs, quite a few go as Humans (on a side note, I've noticed an unusual preference for Bretons and Nords - hardly any Redguards or Imperials among the players).

 

Most people however, want a choice so that in some future Elder Scrolls game, they'll be on the "Right" side. To be frank, this is about as pointless as it gets. To quote Vingalmo from the Bards college, "Jarls may come, Jarls may go, but the return of the Dragons will live forever - not the squabbles of politics".

 

Bethesda has, very subtly, given us the canonical resolution of the War - namely, a stalemate. "Season Unending" is part of the Main Quest. It indicates that the Last Dragonborn brokered a peace in Skyrim so that the real threat could be dealt with. In all probability, there will be some kind of compromise solution, with or without Thalmor consent, so that peace returns to the Children of the Sky.

 

Also, what many people forget is that the Civil War is also a fulfilled prophecy (see Alduin's Wall - the Skyrim panel shows the Civil War in progress below the Throat of the World, which is being rent apart, indicating Skyrim's political and social turmoil). The line from the Dragonborn Prophecy - "When the Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless and bleeding" is a direct reference to this (see "The Book of the Dragonborn"). The ending is also therefore, something along the lines of what I've suggested.

 

Bottom Line - Which side you're on doesn't matter a damn in the long run. That there WAS a Last Dragonborn will be remembered. What he/she was wont be remembered - only their actions as regards the Main Quest will be. As simple as that.

 

Besides, we have enough political turmoil in the Real World to worry about. Let's not bring in the politics of Tamriel into this plane - this plane's situation is bad enough. :laugh:

Edited October 20, 2013 by WolfPalatine