Anyone else disappointed with the Stormcloak questline?

[K9andSmith]

I never said Ysgramor was a dragonborn, I said that THE Dragonborn is or rather can be Ysgramor's heir. (If you tell the fellow who guards the bridge in Sovnguard that you are the harbinger of the companions he calls you Ysgramor's heir.) As such he would have right to contend for the high kingship, as the heir of a previous high king, if not have a right to it through the old Nordic empire. And you could argue that it was just a title or that it might have been a courtesy. As far as that goes maybe, but if you take it more literally, then the companions have kept a line unbroken since Ysgramor that could have taken the thrown of the old empire.

 

While the Dragonborn might not be a proven member of the Septim family no one could prove he wasn't either. Furthermore it would make more sense that the Dragonborn was an offshoot of the Septim. Because of Martin we know that bastard children from the royal line were swept under the rug so they would not challenge any true born heirs. That he might be of a bastard branch of the Septim tree or just a lesser line of second and third sons could no be disputed by anyone on tamreil save maybe the ancestor moth priests.

 

I am not shore what you are talking about with Talos and I have never heard of it before. But I doubt that Talos is high than Akatosh.

 

-Joel Barron

[Lachdonin]

I am not shore what you are talking about with Talos and I have never heard of it before. But I doubt that Talos is high than Akatosh.

 

-Joel Barron

 

*deep breath*. Ok, you're head is going to hurt. I'm sorry for that.

 

In the beginning there was Anu and Padomay. Their souls were Anui'el and Sithis. Their first born children were Auri'el and Lorkhan. Auri'el and Lorkhan, are thus, cosmic twins, manifestations of I AM and I AM NOT. Auri'el travels to the heart of the Aubris and witnesses the Wheel. Lorkhan travels to the void beyond the Aubris and witness the Tower. The twins then come together and hatch an idea.

 

Auri'el and Lorkhan mastermind the creation of Mundus. Auri'el to create an embodiment of the Wheel, Lorkhan to help his kin (the Et'Ada) understand the Tower. At some point, Lorkhan creates the power-draining nature of Mundus, sapping his fellows of their divinity and leaving them Mortal (and thus free of the conceptual being the Et'Ada, better able to understand the Love that is CHIM). There is a war, the Ehlnofex Wars, Auri'el and his followers defeat Lorkhan. The General captures the Rebel. Auri'el's Champion, Trinimac, cuts out Lorkhan's heart, tainting himself in the process and beginning his fall which ends when Boethia turns Trinimac into Malakath. The General kills the Rebel, but cripples the Observer. This is the Convention, the solid point in time to which all Kalpa's reset. Still with me?

 

3000 odd years later, you have Tiber Septim. He teams up with Wulfharth and Zurin Arctus. All three of them are Shezzarines, avatars of the dead Lorkhan. Tiber Septim is also Dragonborn, an avatar of Akatosh. He represents both halves of the cosmic twins. Tiber Septim forges his empire, becoming the General. He negotiated with the Dunmer, offending Wulfharth (who hates all Elves) and Wulfharth becomes the Rebel. Together with Zurin, Tiber Septim traps Wulfharth to power the Numidium, but Zurin is trapped as well. The General kills the Rebel, but cripples the Observer.

 

Sometime alter, Tiber Septim mantles Lorkhan (we're not entirely sure how) and in the process gains understanding of the Tower. His love for his Empire keeps him from Zero Summing, and he also achieves CHIM through the process. At this point, Tiber Septim becomes Talos, assuming the 9th Throne left vacant since Lorkhan's first-death (at the point of the first-Kalpa). Talos is now the twin of Akatosh-is-Auri'el-is-Aka'tusk.

 

Enter Daggerfall. The numidium is destroyed, releasing the souls of Zurin Arctus and Wulfharth. Talos now matches Auri'el, and Wulfharth serves as Lorkhan, part of his essence going to fuel the fabric of Mundus. Talos-Wulfharth-Zurin together mantle the Convention, mantle the entinamorph. Talos becomes Lorkhan AND Akatosh both.

 

That is something of a gross oversimplification... but anyway... Theres also the whole Kirkbride list of the 10 most powerful entities... Talos is #1, Auri'el/Akatosh is #5. And, you know... CHIM beats normal Godhood.

[blacksupernova]

Lachdonin: your post is very interesting but could you provide the source? Not that I am questioning you but it would be easier for reference. Because, some of your information is different from what I read and some I could not find.

 

 

In the beginning there was Anu and Padomay. Their souls were Anui'el and Sithis. Their first born children were Auri'el and Lorkhan. Auri'el and Lorkhan, are thus, cosmic twins, manifestations of I AM and I AM NOT. Auri'el travels to the heart of the Aubris and witnesses the Wheel. Lorkhan travels to the void beyond the Aubris and witness the Tower. The twins then come together and hatch an idea.

 

According to UESP, Akatosh is the first god to form in the beginning place.

 

"When Akatosh forms, Time begins, and it becomes easier for some spirits to realize themselves as beings with a past and a future. The strongest of the recognizable spirits crystallize: Mephala, Arkay, Y'ffre, Magnus, Rupgta [sic], etc., etc. Others remain as concepts, ideas, or emotions. One of the strongest of these, a barely formed urge that the others call Lorkhan, details a plan to create Mundus, the Mortal Plane" (The Monomyth http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Monomyth)

 

By the way it says, Lorkhan and Akatosh can not be cosmic twins. Akatosh first, then other god (Lorkhan included)

 

"According to Vivec, the first to understand the concept was Lorkhan, whose curiosity and desire for change drove him to the rim of the Wheel and beyond, where he looked back at the Aurbis sideways and thereby learned the name of God: I (as a wheel, observed from the side, is an "I"). Lorkhan then convinced the Aedra to join him in building Mundus, also called the Tower at the hub of the Wheel, in a venture to help others know CHIM and thereby escape all laws which constrained them" (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:CHIM)

 

Lorkhan witnessed the Wheel, not Akatosh. The Tower is Mundus which is the creation of Lorkhan, he can not possibly witness the Tower at the time.

 

 

Auri'el and Lorkhan mastermind the creation of Mundus. Auri'el to create an embodiment of the Wheel, Lorkhan to help his kin (the Et'Ada) understand the Tower. At some point, Lorkhan creates the power-draining nature of Mundus, sapping his fellows of their divinity and leaving them Mortal (and thus free of the conceptual being the Et'Ada, better able to understand the Love that is CHIM). There is a war, the Ehlnofex Wars, Auri'el and his followers defeat Lorkhan. The General captures the Rebel. Auri'el's Champion, Trinimac, cuts out Lorkhan's heart, tainting himself in the process and beginning his fall which ends when Boethia turns Trinimac into Malakath. The General kills the Rebel, but cripples the Observer. This is the Convention, the solid point in time to which all Kalpa's reset

 

I don't think love is CHIM, though it maybe because I don't get you right. Also I don't find any source saying Trinimac was tainted by tearing out the Heart :ermm: .

 

 

3000 odd years later, you have Tiber Septim. He teams up with Wulfharth and Zurin Arctus. All three of them are Shezzarines, avatars of the dead Lorkhan. Tiber Septim is also Dragonborn, an avatar of Akatosh. He represents both halves of the cosmic twins. Tiber Septim forges his empire, becoming the General. He negotiated with the Dunmer, offending Wulfharth (who hates all Elves) and Wulfharth becomes the Rebel. Together with Zurin, Tiber Septim traps Wulfharth to power the Numidium, but Zurin is trapped as well. The General kills the Rebel, but cripples the Observer.

 

Since I believe Akatosh and Lorkhan are not cosmic twins, Tiber Septim doesn't represent both halves of the cosmic twins. He simply represents an avatar of Akatosh and Lorkhan.

 

 

Sometime alter, Tiber Septim mantles Lorkhan (we're not entirely sure how) and in the process gains understanding of the Tower. His love for his Empire keeps him from Zero Summing, and he also achieves CHIM through the process. At this point, Tiber Septim becomes Talos, assuming the 9th Throne left vacant since Lorkhan's first-death (at the point of the first-Kalpa). Talos is now the twin of Akatosh-is-Auri'el-is-Aka'tusk.

 

Again, I couldn't find any source saying Talos mantling Lorkhan. And Lorkhan is Shor, that means if Talos becomes Lorkhan, Sovgarde would becomes the realm of Talos, I find it hard to believe :ohmy: considering you visit Sovgarde in Skyrim and no one there ever suggests it. About Talos archiving CHIM, that is a matter to be dispute because, no one knows how he archived godhood.

 

 

Enter Daggerfall. The numidium is destroyed, releasing the souls of Zurin Arctus and Wulfharth. Talos now matches Auri'el, and Wulfharth serves as Lorkhan, part of his essence going to fuel the fabric of Mundus. Talos-Wulfharth-Zurin together mantle the Convention, mantle the entinamorph. Talos becomes Lorkhan AND Akatosh both.

 

You are right, my head's hurt. I don't understand any of this. Is that speculation or direct source saying Talos matches Auriel? And Talos can not be Akatosh, can he? :pinch:

 

 

Theres also the whole Kirkbride list of the 10 most powerful entities... Talos is #1, Auri'el/Akatosh is #5. And, you know... CHIM beats normal Godhood

 

I can not find the list, link please? And do note that Michael Kirkbride is a game designer, his list may simply represents his own opinion. And I don't know that CHIM beats normal godhood because there are few enough reliable examples of any one actually achieves CHIM, even fewer of any clashes between them two.

 

Understand that I am not questioning you or your view of the lore, I just expect to see some reliable source, ok? :geek:

[K9andSmith]

There seem to be a number of problems with that, maybe because you simplified it, maybe not. Namely that an aspect of a entity could be considered to then merge with other aspect of that entity, then become that entity itself and it's sort of brother-type-thing and the world. In any event I have had my fun on the subject and advocate the floor.

 

- Joel Barron

[Lachdonin]

*snip*

 

 

Admittedly, sources would be hard to provide, because the information is drawn from dozens of sources, not to mention very lengthy discussions on both the Bethesda Forums and the TES Lore Reddit.

 

In large part, no one knows anything for sure. We're not even entirely sure the story of how the universe formed is accurate. The UESP and TES Wiki both tend to portray things as concrete explanations, but if you spend any time on either the Lore Forum or the Lore Reddit, things become very grey, very quickly.

 

In terms of the Shor thing...Shor is just as complicated as pretty much anything else. He is an echo of Lorkhan, no Lorkhan himself. In many ways, he's just like the Shezzarines, though cast into Aetherius rather than being bound to Mundus.

 

There has been some discussion on the Forums lately about whether or not the PC's in TES games are Shezzarines, and a theory has arisin that there are no more Shezzarines, and that Talos' apotheosis consumed all the fragments of Lorkhan's soul, not just Tiber/Zurin/Wulfharth. If so, that would also explain why Shor is nowhere to be found, as he was one such fragment (probably the largest).

 

As for the Kirkbride list... I know for a fact it's on the Imperial Library, but I can't find it right this instant... Here it is, quoted from another forum though.

 

 

Talos.

 

The HoonDing.

 

Trinimac.

 

Vivec.

 

Leki.

 

Reman.

 

Auri-El.

 

Wulfharth.

 

Morihaus.

 

Pelinal.

 

That's my list, and pretty much in that order. Though Vivec did kill Tiber Septim once...but I mentioned Talos, not the Emperor.

 

Now, bear in mind that this list is in terms of raw power, not influence.

 

There is another Kirkbride quote around which states in no simple terms that Lorkhan IS Akatosh and Akatosh IS Lorkhan.

Sometimes I wish Sajukkar was still around, he seemed to have all this stuff bookmarked.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Lachdonin

[blacksupernova]

 

*snip*

 

 

Admittedly, sources would be hard to provide, because the information is drawn from dozens of sources, not to mention very lengthy discussions on both the Bethesda Forums and the TES Lore Reddit.

 

In large part, no one knows anything for sure. We're not even entirely sure the story of how the universe formed is accurate. The UESP and TES Wiki both tend to portray things as concrete explanations, but if you spend any time on either the Lore Forum or the Lore Reddit, things become very grey, very quickly.

 

In terms of the Shor thing...Shor is just as complicated as pretty much anything else. He is an echo of Lorkhan, no Lorkhan himself. In many ways, he's just like the Shezzarines, though cast into Aetherius rather than being bound to Mundus.

 

There has been some discussion on the Forums lately about whether or not the PC's in TES games are Shezzarines, and a theory has arisin that there are no more Shezzarines, and that Talos' apotheosis consumed all the fragments of Lorkhan's soul, not just Tiber/Zurin/Wulfharth. If so, that would also explain why Shor is nowhere to be found, as he was one such fragment (probably the largest).

 

As for the Kirkbride list... I know for a fact it's on the Imperial Library, but I can't find it right this instant... Here it is, quoted from another forum though.

 

 

Talos.

 

The HoonDing.

 

Trinimac.

 

Vivec.

 

Leki.

 

Reman.

 

Auri-El.

 

Wulfharth.

 

Morihaus.

 

Pelinal.

 

That's my list, and pretty much in that order. Though Vivec did kill Tiber Septim once...but I mentioned Talos, not the Emperor.

 

Now, bear in mind that this list is in terms of raw power, not influence.

 

There is another Kirkbride quote around which states in no simple terms that Lorkhan IS Akatosh and Akatosh IS Lorkhan.

Sometimes I wish Sajukkar was still around, he seemed to have all this stuff bookmarked.

 

Now this, this is why I choose to stick with in-game book and not forum because forum, in the context of a unreal universe, is really where people share their opinion and point of view about that universe. Frankly, you cant make sense of something not real, you only choose the path you favor. On the contrary, information from in-game books, though sometimes contradict themselves, is what Bethesda chose to give player. In forum, one personal perception may quickly become a stated lore, then everything becomes grey and no one knows what Bethesda really intended for player to believe. Take the formation of TES universe for example, you stated we don't entirely sure how it is formed and you must have good reasons for saying that. But since you showed me - someone confused by your statement - no reliable source for the contradiction, I would assume the contradiction occurs in forums. In that case, I figure it is best to believe in-game book because TES is Bethesda's creation, whatever they chose to put in it is more concrete than anything a player could make out of (and I do mean THEY, I don't entirely trust individual's input either even if he is a former game designer of Bethesda because I don't know if he took any part in building TES lore when he was in the company).

 

Again, I am not questioning your perception of or how you perceive TES lore, I am just saying you may confuse others (me for example) if you state your belief so confidently that causes others to believe it is solid (and as I stated, it would become an unofficial "official" lore in no time)

 

Regarding Shor and Lorkhan, no one knows if Shor is Lorkhan or fragment of Lorkhan (Bethesda's intention for sure). If Shor is fragment of Lorkhan, your explanation of Talos may make sense. If Shor is Lorkhan, your explanation doesn't make sense (and we cant jump to the conclusion of Talos and Akatosh's power anymore). It is entirely up to the player's discretion to choose. I personally believe the second path because during your visit in Sovgarde, Tsun says "But Shor restrained our wrathful onslaught - perhaps, deep-counselled, your doom he foresaw." and Erlendr says "Shor's high seat stands empty; his mien is too bright for mortal eyes." which leads me to think Shor is there, you just cant see him.

 

Regarding your list, I still find it not trustworthy. In the book Lore:2920, The Last Year of the First Era (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:2920,_The_Last_Year_of_the_First_Era), Almalexia and Sotha Sil combined their force and were able to banish Mehrunes Dagon but Almalexia was badly injured indicating neither of them can beat the Daedric Prince on their own. Vivec may be more or less powerful than the other two but he can not possibly stronger than their combined force, meaning Vivec alone wouldn't be able to defeat Mehrunes Dagon either. But we do know that Martin as an avatar of Akatosh banished Mehrunes Dagon on his own. By transitivity, Vivec doesn't have more raw power than Akatosh and yet he is listed above Auriel in the list. I also don't see any reason for Reman to be more powerful than Akatosh.

[Lachdonin]

 

Regarding your list, I still find it not trustworthy. In the book Lore:2920, The Last Year of the First Era (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:2920,_The_Last_Year_of_the_First_Era), Almalexia and Sotha Sil combined their force and were able to banish Mehrunes Dagon but Almalexia was badly injured indicating neither of them can beat the Daedric Prince on their own. Vivec may be more or less powerful than the other two but he can not possibly stronger than their combined force, meaning Vivec alone wouldn't be able to defeat Mehrunes Dagon either. But we do know that Martin as an avatar of Akatosh banished Mehrunes Dagon on his own. By transitivity, Vivec doesn't have more raw power than Akatosh and yet he is listed above Auriel in the list. I also don't see any reason for Reman to be more powerful than Akatosh.

 

 

The problem with that argument is, Vivec achieved CHIM. He is one of only two known beings to have done so (Talos being the other). He is inherently different than the other Tribunes because of that.

 

As for the in-game book thing... Well, such is your prerogative. Some of the most informative pieces of information, however, have never appeared in game. The Nu-Mantia Intercept, Shor; son of Shor, The Trial of Vivec, Loveletter from the 5th Era and Cyrus' meeting with Vivec to name but a few. You are free to refuse to accept them as canon, but I personally feel your understanding and enjoyment of the TES universe is diminished because of that.

[blacksupernova]

 

 

Regarding your list, I still find it not trustworthy. In the book Lore:2920, The Last Year of the First Era (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:2920,_The_Last_Year_of_the_First_Era), Almalexia and Sotha Sil combined their force and were able to banish Mehrunes Dagon but Almalexia was badly injured indicating neither of them can beat the Daedric Prince on their own. Vivec may be more or less powerful than the other two but he can not possibly stronger than their combined force, meaning Vivec alone wouldn't be able to defeat Mehrunes Dagon either. But we do know that Martin as an avatar of Akatosh banished Mehrunes Dagon on his own. By transitivity, Vivec doesn't have more raw power than Akatosh and yet he is listed above Auriel in the list. I also don't see any reason for Reman to be more powerful than Akatosh.

 

 

The problem with that argument is, Vivec achieved CHIM. He is one of only two known beings to have done so (Talos being the other). He is inherently different than the other Tribunes because of that.

 

As for the in-game book thing... Well, such is your prerogative. Some of the most informative pieces of information, however, have never appeared in game. The Nu-Mantia Intercept, Shor; son of Shor, The Trial of Vivec, Loveletter from the 5th Era and Cyrus' meeting with Vivec to name but a few. You are free to refuse to accept them as canon, but I personally feel your understanding and enjoyment of the TES universe is diminished because of that.

 

Again, you speak of Vivec achieving CHIM as if it is canon which contradicts to your previous statement "no one knows anything for sure". If the origin of universe, which is written in book, is not entirely sure to be correct as you stated; then Vivec achieving CHIM, which is not appear in-game, can not be any more certain than it.

 

Regarding your list, yes they may be informative but obscure and unconfirmed. Even the comment of librarian at the start of page

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/trial-vivec give me the impression this should not be taken seriously. There is reason for those to not be added in UESP and I don't think not taking unofficial source would have any impact on my understanding of the TES world.

 

But anyway that's not the point. The point I have been trying to say all along is, you are free to know the TES world as you wish, you are free to share your TES world as you wish but please don't make it sound like your world is the absolute world, that your understanding of TES world is what Beth devs aimed for us to believe; and finally, please don't deny other's world by stating the 'proof' from your own world. That could be very annoying for those who doesn't share the view as yours.

Edited October 30, 2013 by blacksupernova

[Lachdonin]

But anyway that's not the point. The point I have been trying to say all along is, you are free to know the TES world as you wish, you are free to share your TES world as you wish but please don't make it sound like your world is the absolute world, that your understanding of TES world is what Beth devs aimed for us to believe; and finally, please don't deny other's world by stating the 'proof' from your own world. That could be very annoying for those who doesn't share the view as yours.

 

 

You seem to have missed my second paragraph entirely. I said you are fully free to dismiss anything you so wish, Everyone is. It's one of the wonders of being human. But I will continue to argue points based on the extended universe.

 

Consider it this way... If we were having a discussion about Star Wars, would you be so adverse to making reference to the extended universe? To the continued war against the Empire, Sidius' revival, Lukes re-founding of the Jedi etc? Highly unlikely. But even Lucas has said that all these are not canon, and the only canon is what is present in the games. On the opposite side, the Bethesda developers have stated that Kirkbride's work is just as canon as anything else. Which means it's sorta-maybe-kinda true.

 

Ignore it if you wish, but I will continue to bring it up whenever relevant.

[RurouniTim]

I've played through both faction questlines more than once, and they both dissatisfy me.

 

With the stormcloak questline, you help a man become high king who is completely indifferent to the strife and suffering of anyone who is not a nord. Who knows how this blatant racism would've escalated if he became High King with the full suport of the jarls. Yes Ulfric has a just cause to be angry about the outlaw of Talos, but why so long after the white gold concordant? It's all because he wanted to use Talos as a martyr for his rise to high kingdom. If he truly wanted to take a right action, he should've called the citizens of Skyrim to rise arms against the Thalmor. They're the true enemies in all of this. But then, Ulfric wouldn't have become high king, which is what he's truly after. Ulfrics ambiton is furthermore seen at the Greybeard's peace council, where he demands an advancement of his position for a temporary truce. That just seems like a stupidly arrogant thing to do at a peace council.