[WIP] Cerwiden -SMART Healer- AI Configurable Companion

[Mujuro]

Hi everyone,

 

Cerwiden's new development opinion and feedback poll is up, and will be open at least until I release v1.7. The current version, v1.6 incorporates the feedback received on the poll I released during v1.5, and includes voice consistency (now that Ceri's moved off FemaleYoungEager to her own custom voice), a bunch of new dialogue, random party banter and the first installment of her backstory/quest. I've got the basic concept of her questline determined, but would like some feedback/opinions on a couple of areas, and those are the questions for this latest poll. If there are other things you'd like me to consider, please feel free to post a separate comment.

 

Please understand that with my RL family obligations, work schedule, etc., I won't be able to do "everything" that you all would like me to do (or even what I, personally, would like to achieve). While I can't make any promises, I hope you've all seen that I do try to take your comments and feedback into account with each new Ceri version. :)

 

Thanks again to everyone who provided suggestions, comments and feedback for Ceri; Ceri wouldn't be where she is today without each and every one of you. :)

 

Mujuro

 

UPDATE 5 Sept 2012 - Now that Ceri v1.6 is live, I'm closing this poll. I'll have another dev opinion poll up later. I'll be replacing the v1.5->1.6 poll, so you can see the results here.

 

UPDATE 7 Sept 2012 - The forum isn't letting me replace the poll with a new one, so I'll be starting a new thread.

[JanusForbeare]

I haven't used Ceridwen yet, but as a companion modder myself, I'm always eagerly awaiting other voiced companions for Atvir to interact with. Ceri already seems to fill a void in terms of party structure; now, all she needs is her own voice and personality!

[Mujuro]

Hello JanusForbeare,

 

I actually have your mod on my "to download" list as well, and am hopeful to be able to try it soon (family, work and Ceri have been keeping me from actually being able to "play" Skyrim :P). Currently, Ceri has custom configuration dialogue that is fully voiced, but for default "follower" dialogue, she reverts back to vanilla "FemaleYoungEager". Shelly is willing to revoice everything as custom, but I do question whether that is the best use of her/my time in terms of making Ceri "unique".

 

And interaction with other NPCs is something that I'd very much like to see, and in a similar way as Oblivion's Vilja interacted with Stoker Wolff, Viconia, etc., if those mods were all installed.

[Oubliette]

I think giving Cerwiden a backstory/quest is far more important to the purpose of fleshing her out as a companion than her voice dialogue. Personal dialogue that helps flesh out her personality would be nice but I find I'm rather ambivalent about the desirability of it being voiced or not. I'd just rather more companions with more personality than anything else.

[JanusForbeare]

I didn't realize that Ceri has her own dialogue! I'll definitely have to check that out.

 

As a player, I would very much be in favor of the follower dialogue being custom-voiced, since the difference in voices can otherwise be jarring, reinforcing the idea that "this is not a person". Gabriel Vahrae-Bentos is an example of a great follower partially voiced, and while I enjoy having her as a companion, I usually end up leaving her at home, as I find it hard to anthropomorphize her and see her as a real "person".

 

That being said, as a modder, I understand the necessities of time and resource management, so if you choose to go another route based on the feedback you get here, I'll still be eagerly awaiting the result!

Edited August 18, 2012 by JanusForbeare

[DanTR]

Giving a backstory and a quest for Cerwiden would help people like me who roleplay in Skyrim.

 

Even if I love that mod, she still looks like a "stranger" to the world 'cause, you know... You just go to the Sleeping Giant Inn, and "Follow me, I need your help", and Cerwiden doesn't even say something like "Are you... the Dragonborn? Lord Denblas/Donblas (I forgot his name) has sent me to assist you on yadda yadda yadda...".

 

The other aspects of Cerwiden can be improved later. But, after a backstory, making the custom voice of the other dialogue options would be a nice idea...

Edited August 18, 2012 by DanTR

[Moraevik]

Would you believe that I scrapped my last game just to start a new one to test out Cerwiden? I get bored around level 35, anyway, so it wasn't a big loss, even though I was starting to have fun with Kharjo as a follower. I really don't use followers that much, since most of them just seem to get in the way, block doors, blow my cover, and say annoying things over and over. I tried Vilja (by Emma) when I was playing Oblivion, though, and she shows what a custom-programmed NPC can do, even in a game that was abysmally suited for followers.

 

I've only been at it on and off for a few days. I pudged around Riverwood doing various things so get my level up to her starting level before recruiting her, since I've found that most followers tend to make the game too easy, and having one that was five levels over me just didn't appeal. I'll give you my thoughts up to this point, since we've been on a few quests, including the one to kill the dragon attacking the Western Watchtower.

 

First though, my vote. You left out one that really endeared me to Vilja. Vilja would have unique things to say about what you're doing. It was one of the things that made her feel like a real person, rather than a re-dressed generic NPC.

 

Resurrection of other followers: I'm not sure in what context you mean. Unless you have a mod installed that allows multiple NPC followers, the only other followers you can have with Ceri active are a horse and a dog.

 

Pop-up configuration menu system for all configuration: I'd rate this quite low. Its still desirable, I think, but I'd much rather see more sophistication in her actions, first.

 

SMARTCast consideration of third-party spell mods (MIDAS, Apocalypse, etc.): Don't use them, so for me this isn't even an issue.

 

"Male" version of Ceri (healer/mage archetype): Yes. I'd think this wouldn't be too difficult. A little tinkering in the CK and, voila, sex change. The voice acting would have to be re-done, of course.

 

Creation of a warrior/tank archetype: I'll admit that I'm not too fond of tanks because most of them just seem to ruin by best laid plans for an assault on a stronghold. Even Ceri as is frequently acts like a front-line fighter.

 

Creation of a rogue/assassin archetype: High on my list, since this would better fit in with my own playing style.

 

Replacing the default "voice" with completely custom dialogue: Absolutely. This is what really brought Vilja to life in Oblivion. As it is, her changes of voice are as immersion-shattering as when Esbern starts speaking in a different voice.

 

Backstory/quests for Ceri: Here's where I think you need to put your valuable time. I was expecting to have to do something to win her over, but I just saunter in to the inn, ask her to go with me, and she packs up and leaves with a total stranger. So, yes. Give her a life of her own, that might not even always coincide with what the player wants to do.

 

Now for my comments on game-play. I don't have a lot, since, like I said, I've only been playing with your mod for a few days.

 

1. Make her aware of traps. I should, in real life, be able to point to something and say "Don't step there", and the people following me will not step there. I really hate it when I sneak through an area, avoiding all the traps, and my follower trips one at an inopportune moment (usually when I'm standing in just the wrong place).

 

2. She has a really irritating tendency to rush headlong into battle the moment the sneak eye begins to open up. I know this is default NPC behavior, but to be a useful follower to a player who prefers stealth over brute hack and slash tactics she must wait until the cover is actually blown to act. That means no action against the enemy until the enemy actually spots one of us and goes actively aggro.

 

3. She basically told me to suck a rock when I told her to not use weapons? Really? Don't include this option if all she's going to do is make a snide remark. Had she been in my employ in real life I would have fired her for insubordination right there on the spot.

 

4. Even when I took away her dagger she'd rush into battle to go one-on-one, or even one-on-many, toe-to-toe. She's a healer-mage, and not blasted warrior for Pete's sake! She has spells she can use from a distance. She needs to use them from a distance and not get surrounded by a pack of guys armed with swords, axes, maces, and hammers.

 

5. She pulled my butt out of fire several times by healing me while I was actively engaged. This is something I can't do, short of using potions, and is one of the reasons I think she may be the best follower available at this point. Unfortunately, her reckless combat style gets her in trouble so often that she is frequently taken out of a battle with multiple opponents early on. This is really my primary complaint. Other than that I think Ceri will go a long way to restoring my faith in the ability of this game to support followers properly.

 

That's about it. I don't want this post to grow into a dissertation, so I'll let you digest this and then get back to you with more observations after I've a few more quests under my belt with her.

[Mujuro]

Thanks for the detailed response! I'll try to answer some of your comments as best I can.

 

Would you believe that I scrapped my last game just to start a new one to test out Cerwiden? I get bored around level 35, anyway, so it wasn't a big loss, even though I was starting to have fun with Kharjo as a follower. I really don't use followers that much, since most of them just seem to get in the way, block doors, blow my cover, and say annoying things over and over. I tried Vilja (by Emma) when I was playing Oblivion, though, and she shows what a custom-programmed NPC can do, even in a game that was abysmally suited for followers.

I also had Vilja as a companion, and loved her. I was hopeful that Emma would create a similar companion to Vilja for Skyrim, but she's not do so yet. :( I'm not sure Ceri will ever be able to compete with Vilja in the "pure immersion" element, but it's a possibility. After all, Ceri is only one month old. :P

 

Resurrection of other followers: I'm not sure in what context you mean. Unless you have a mod installed that allows multiple NPC followers, the only other followers you can have with Ceri active are a horse and a dog.

Most of the Ceri users are using companion framework mods that allow multiple followers. Some of these users play "non-essential" mode, meaning that these followers can die. Obviously, for the folks running around with every companion being essential (or only with a single companion) ... resurrection is moot. :P

 

"Male" version of Ceri (healer/mage archetype): Yes. I'd think this wouldn't be too difficult. A little tinkering in the CK and, voila, sex change. The voice acting would have to be re-done, of course.

Would also need to come up with some new dialogue ... many of Ceri's custom lines are more suited towards a "female" speaker. :P

 

Creation of a warrior/tank archetype: I'll admit that I'm not too fond of tanks because most of them just seem to ruin by best laid plans for an assault on a stronghold. Even Ceri as is frequently acts like a front-line fighter.

See my comment below on her acting like a front-line fighter ... I believe you may have her misconfigured.

 

Backstory/quests for Ceri: Here's where I think you need to put your valuable time. I was expecting to have to do something to win her over, but I just saunter in to the inn, ask her to go with me, and she packs up and leaves with a total stranger. So, yes. Give her a life of her own, that might not even always coincide with what the player wants to do.

This was one of those things I initially considered "nice to have". My original purpose in Ceri was so that I wouldn't have to play "jack-of-all-trades-including-healer" in my adventuring party. I typically play as a tank/warrior, Ceri has mage/healer support and a DPS rogue/assassin type follower. As noted earlier, I'm now getting close to finishing what I'd originally set out to do for Ceri's "combat AI", so may have time to turn to the "nice to haves".

 

1. Make her aware of traps. I should, in real life, be able to point to something and say "Don't step there", and the people following me will not step there. I really hate it when I sneak through an area, avoiding all the traps, and my follower trips one at an inopportune moment (usually when I'm standing in just the wrong place).

Unless you have something that is interfering with this, Ceri should not be setting off traps. I specifically gave her the "light feet" perk. If Ceri is setting off traps that you and other followers avoid, please tell me which specific trap it is so I can look into it. Note that there are some traps in Skyrim that are unavoidable, and Bethesda made them this way intentionally.

 

2. She has a really irritating tendency to rush headlong into battle the moment the sneak eye begins to open up. I know this is default NPC behavior, but to be a useful follower to a player who prefers stealth over brute hack and slash tactics she must wait until the cover is actually blown to act. That means no action against the enemy until the enemy actually spots one of us and goes actively aggro.

There are companion framework mods that change this behavior (take your pick from the big 3-4). Given that these framework mods exist, and 99% of Ceri users use one of them, I didn't feel the need to reinvent the wheel.

 

3. She basically told me to suck a rock when I told her to not use weapons? Really? Don't include this option if all she's going to do is make a snide remark. Had she been in my employ in real life I would have fired her for insubordination right there on the spot.

You wanted personality, she's going to tell you if she disagrees. Like Vilja in Oblivion. :P That said, she has a few different remarks she'll make. And yes, you can fire her if you don't like her attitude, or simply remove them in the CK if you really don't like them. I've received feedback from others about her "disagreement" lines, and it has been overwhelmingly positive.

 

4. Even when I took away her dagger she'd rush into battle to go one-on-one, or even one-on-many, toe-to-toe. She's a healer-mage, and not blasted warrior for Pete's sake! She has spells she can use from a distance. She needs to use them from a distance and not get surrounded by a pack of guys armed with swords, axes, maces, and hammers.

 

5. She pulled my butt out of fire several times by healing me while I was actively engaged. This is something I can't do, short of using potions, and is one of the reasons I think she may be the best follower available at this point. Unfortunately, her reckless combat style gets her in trouble so often that she is frequently taken out of a battle with multiple opponents early on. This is really my primary complaint. Other than that I think Ceri will go a long way to restoring my faith in the ability of this game to support followers properly.

How did you configure her engagement AI, and her spellcasting? I have zero problems with her staying back and casting spells and trying to avoid melee. Others who've configured her to be "pure healer" (don't engage enemies in melee, only defensive spells) also haven't had a problem (see jburrowes videos from v1.3BETA and Kirk Hamilton's Kotaku Dawnguard article. I'm also assuming, of course, that you didn't do anything to change her underlying combat parameters. In fact, she's specifically set to flank and not duel, so she shouldn't be engaging head-on in any case unless if she's surrounded and can't pathfind her way out (that said, Skyrim's pathfinding is not exactly "great" by any stretch).

[Moraevik]

Quick response. I like that with mod developers. It shows they're on top of things. Let's see if I can address your comments, but, first, I need some help. I went into High Hrothgar and Ceri didn't follow me in. Upon exiting the place she was nowhere to be found. Fast-traveling didn't help. Neither did quitting and restarting the game. Neither did going to Riverwood and looking for her in the inn. Neither did waiting there for 24 hours. She simply seems to have disappeared from the game.

 

What I need is her refID so I can use "moveto player" to get her back, wherever she has managed to get herself stuck. I've noticed that she'll frequently go aggro on something that hasn't even spotted me, yet, and will disappear for some time. Must be that hot Nord blood. She seems to love fighting as much as I love sneaking.

 

I don't remember the details of how I had her configured, but I do remember that I told her not to use weapons and to use her staff. She's set to heal me only in combat, and I think there was an option that would allow her to melee if she came under direct attack. I did give her some weapons for Shroud Hearth Barrow -- a Steel Waraxe, some Ancient Nord Arrows, and an Ancient Nord Bow, which was basically the best gear available at that point in the game, unless I wanted her to use a two-handed weapon. Her orders not to use weapons were still in effect at that time and she didn't.

 

In the barrow she set off at least two traps that I can remember. Both of them were pressure plates. I didn't pay much attention to what happened, since my eyes were set on my prey and not on the horizon -- or my "6". I heard the pressure plates trip, but that's all. I can't remember exactly where the other traps were, but I think one or two were in Ilinalta's Deep (sp.?).

 

I honestly don't think you should rely upon other mods to configure her combat style. The best companion mods for Oblivion were those that were entirely stand-alone. If I ever decide to use multiple companions I won't want all of them using the exact same tactics in a confrontation, anyway. If a companion is better with a bow than with a sword, then I'll expect that person to use the bow and resort to the melee weapon only as a last resort. Mage followers shouldn't automatically draw their daggers and try to engage an enemy in close combat. I know from experience that burning their faces off is frequently more effective than trying to melee with someone who is standing nose-to-nose with me.

 

For what it's worth, though, in the "boss fight" in Shroud Hearth Barrow Ceri showed a bit more smarts when engaging multiple Draugr, trying to keep away from them rather than letting a bunch beat on her at the same time. This is very different than her tactics when dealing with a bandit camp in the Whiterun area. I don't remember the name (I'm awful with names), but it's the one with the pit trap, mine, and dead mammoth. In that encounter she just rushed headlong toward the camp the instant the sneak eye started opening and engaged the bandits as they poured out the gate. After I finished cleaning up inside the camp I had to go looking for her, and she had wandered off in pursuit of one of them.

 

I'm using BDO and Better Followers, both of which I installed when I playing with the idea of having Kharjo as a follower in my last play-through. I didn't bother getting into any of the inner workings of either of those mods and I think I left both of them at whatever their default settings are. I haven't fiddled with either of them in this play-through, either.

[Mujuro]

Quick response. I like that with mod developers. It shows they're on top of things. Let's see if I can address your comments, but, first, I need some help. I went into High Hrothgar and Ceri didn't follow me in. Upon exiting the place she was nowhere to be found. Fast-traveling didn't help. Neither did quitting and restarting the game. Neither did going to Riverwood and looking for her in the inn. Neither did waiting there for 24 hours. She simply seems to have disappeared from the game.

 

What I need is her refID so I can use "moveto player" to get her back, wherever she has managed to get herself stuck. I've noticed that she'll frequently go aggro on something that hasn't even spotted me, yet, and will disappear for some time. Must be that hot Nord blood. She seems to love fighting as much as I love sneaking.

Disappearing followers/NPCs is, unfortunately, a known issue with Skyrim generally and isn't specific to Ceri. That said, if she's stuck because of pathfinding issues, etc., you SHOULD have a "Call Cerwiden" spell under your lesser powers panel; using that should put her in front of you. Using this spell should render needing her RefID moot. That said, RefIDs are different across different people's games, so I can't tell you what her RefID is in YOUR game. You can get it by loading up a save where she's present, going into the console, and clicking on her. Just write down her RefID in a handy place just in case you need it.

 

Now if you don't have that spell in your panel, you may have a corrupted/bad install (which would also explain some of the other glitches you've encountered) or you're using an outdated version of Ceri.

 

I don't remember the details of how I had her configured, but I do remember that I told her not to use weapons and to use her staff. She's set to heal me only in combat, and I think there was an option that would allow her to melee if she came under direct attack. I did give her some weapons for Shroud Hearth Barrow -- a Steel Waraxe, some Ancient Nord Arrows, and an Ancient Nord Bow, which was basically the best gear available at that point in the game, unless I wanted her to use a two-handed weapon. Her orders not to use weapons were still in effect at that time and she didn't.

Remember what I said on Ceri's main page about NOT giving her weapons if you configure her not to use them ... she junks them otherwise (I've got limited options available until such time, if ever, Bethesda releases the underlying combat AI core to modders).

In the barrow she set off at least two traps that I can remember. Both of them were pressure plates. I didn't pay much attention to what happened, since my eyes were set on my prey and not on the horizon -- or my "6". I heard the pressure plates trip, but that's all. I can't remember exactly where the other traps were, but I think one or two were in Ilinalta's Deep (sp.?).

I'll double check against her code to make sure she has "light feet". She shouldn't be setting off most vanilla pressure plates (there are a few, can't remember which ones offhand, that are specifically designed to be unavoidable, but I don't believe the ones you listed are among those).

 

I honestly don't think you should rely upon other mods to configure her combat style. The best companion mods for Oblivion were those that were entirely stand-alone. If I ever decide to use multiple companions I won't want all of them using the exact same tactics in a confrontation, anyway. If a companion is better with a bow than with a sword, then I'll expect that person to use the bow and resort to the melee weapon only as a last resort. Mage followers shouldn't automatically draw their daggers and try to engage an enemy in close combat. I know from experience that burning their faces off is frequently more effective than trying to melee with someone who is standing nose-to-nose with me.

I actually don't rely on other mods to configure her combat style. In fact, if you use other mods to do so, you'll likely conflict with Ceri's AI. If she's not following your direction, my guess is that you have her configuration set differently than what you want. Relating specifically to sneak, she DOES have some sneak skill, but I intentionally did NOT make her an expert at it by any stretch. This is because she's not intended to be a rogue/assassin "sneak thief" type of character. So if you're a sneaking type, the chances that Ceri gets noticed before you get spotted is pretty much par for the course. Can I make her more stealthy? Absolutely. I just chose not to more from a party balance/immersion factor, as "sneaking" isn't traditionally in the healer/mage archetype but in the assassin/thief one. :) That said, I'm open to feedback on this (so far, it's been rather light on this topic).

 

For what it's worth, though, in the "boss fight" in Shroud Hearth Barrow Ceri showed a bit more smarts when engaging multiple Draugr, trying to keep away from them rather than letting a bunch beat on her at the same time. This is very different than her tactics when dealing with a bandit camp in the Whiterun area. I don't remember the name (I'm awful with names), but it's the one with the pit trap, mine, and dead mammoth. In that encounter she just rushed headlong toward the camp the instant the sneak eye started opening and engaged the bandits as they poured out the gate. After I finished cleaning up inside the camp I had to go looking for her, and she had wandered off in pursuit of one of them.

Ceri's tactically positioning in combat depends, in part, on her environment. If you've got close-quarters combat going on, even though I have her set to flank at a distance, there's really not much she can do (and combine that with the inherent pathfinding problems in Skyrim for NPCs/followers generally ... :P). Another factor involved, and this goes back to the "unreleased" combat AI code that I've essentially had to hack my way around ... even in "defend" mode, if an NPC/follower is attacked, the NPC will return attack. That being said, HOW she engages will depend on how you've got her configured.

 

I'm using BDO and Better Followers, both of which I installed when I playing with the idea of having Kharjo as a follower in my last play-through. I didn't bother getting into any of the inner workings of either of those mods and I think I left both of them at whatever their default settings are. I haven't fiddled with either of them in this play-through, either.

I have Better Followers going in my current game, but haven't used BDO now in about 5-6 months. I wouldn't see any reason why BDO wouldn't work with Ceri, in any case. So long as nothing in BDO conflicts with the directions you've given to her via her configuration dialogue, she should generally fight (or not fight) per your instructions.

 

Anyways, I hope this gives you a better idea of what I have to work with, and the limitations of the same, until such time as Bethesda decides to release the core combat code. :P I'm off to spend some time with the family now, will check in tomorrow. :)