Should Paarthurnax Live or Die?

[modder3434]

in Parth's defense, we didn't see him commit these atrocities (not saying they didn't happen) and that we only have the word of the blades really pushing for his death.

 

now he should be held accountable for his crimes, but he seems to have done a pretty good job of correcting his mistakes himself, by balancing his bad actions with good ones.

 

besides all the stuff said previously on my post, we only know for fact, but we have seen Parth doing, and what I've seen him do is assist me and help defeat his brother, and provide thought provoking questions and give good advice. to me he is the Yoda for the Dragonborn

 

as for sajuukar9000, i highly doubt you want justice for these past atrocities, because you truly love justice, i think you just don't like the dragons in general and seek every reason to exterminate them. sometimes an eye for an eye is not the way to go.

[Inquart]

I think he should live and I have voted so. Yes, he is Alduin's brother and was his top lieutenant all those years ago during the Dragon War, when he is also said to have commited some terrible atrocities against mankind. He is, in a modern sense of these words, a war criminal. Rather pathetic remnants of the Blades, reverted back to their original role as genocidal dragon hunters, would gladly see him simply killed in an act of blind revenge, completely ignoring his more bright role in the war; he has, after all, at some point - when the dragons were still on the winning side, if my memory serves me well - turned against his own brother and his own kin, being the first dragon to do so and of course the one to teach and train mankind in the use of Thu'um, which effectively turned the tide of war in humanity's favor. From that point onwards, dragons finally started to lose and die, all thanks to Paarthurnax's apparent betrayal of his own kin.

 

His motives for such act of treachery against his own brethren are somewhat a mystery to me, as I don't remember his own statement of the matter, while wiki claims it was Alduin's arrogance and false declaration of godhood what pushed Paarthurnax towards humanity. Legend holds it was Kyne's divine intervention that made the Old One to switch sides. I personally think he also took pity on slaughtered humans and became somehow disillusioned. Whatever is the truth, I think Paarth have more than made amends for his past crimes; self-imposed exile and strict adherence to the Way of the Voice are his atonement. If he could really convince other dragons to fight off their inner desire for domination and destruction, if he could in some way replace war-like Alduin as a peaceful leader of the Dov - even better.

 

Long story short: let him live and do his best to broker a peace between Men and Dov with Dovahkiin doing the same.

Edited September 8, 2012 by Inquart

[Cobwebmaster]

Gets to live - I see no reason to kill him - The Blades? Pfah they're off their collective trolley and obsessed! Paarthurnax has helped me and been an ally and trainer. Is this the way I repay those that help? Not if I want to become KING OF SKYRIM! Ulfric is a Nazi and The Empire is finished. I save the place, get to ride Paarthurnax around Skyrim kick out the Altmeri Dominion AND Tullius and barbecue Ulfric.

 

Where's my DLC?? I want to found a new Dynasty!!

[Lachdonin]

This, to me, is an arguement between vengance and justice. A key component in the philosophy of Justice is the notion of pennance. In order for justice, the guilty part must be given the chance to atone for their crimes. It's one of the reasons why we don't let the family and friends of the wronged party decide guilt and punishment.

 

In the case of Paarthunax, his guilt is in question ( * ) but his pennance is not. He turned against his own friends and family to help Men liberate themselves from Dragon rule, then spent the next 3000 years teaching a philosophy of tollerance, peace and harmony with the world. Whats more, when Dragons returned, he once again took a stand against their violence. Rehabilitation is an important component to the idea of justice, and Paarthunax, even if he did commit the crimes the Blades so vaguely accuse him of, he has rehabilitated himself without the assistance of someone hovering over his shoulder, telling him right from wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

* The actual crimes Paarthunax commited are never defined, and it remains vague if he really did anything. He only admits to being Alduin's lieutenant, and doesn't mention any particular atrocities himself. In fact, in the book The Dragon War we are told that it was the Dragon Priests who had primary contact with the Dragons, offering tribute collected from the people and in turn issueing the orders from the relavent Dragon. it's completely possible that the crimes ascribed to Paarthunax were in fact commited by his particular Dragon Priest, and were in fact only commit in his name, rather than by Paarthunax himself.

 

Even if this is the case though it could be the Blades blame Paarthunax, and all Dragons, for the subjugation of Men in the Mereithic era. If this is the case, things can get suitably fun. We know that sometime in the late Dawn or early Mereithic, Men were created by Lorkhan in Skyrim (pet hypothesis; At the Skyforge). Lorkhan was then defeated by the 8 Divines and their aedric cousins (the ancestors of the Mer) and cut up, his heart falling in Red Mountain, his body being cut in two and hung in the sky (the Moons) and his spirit decending to the underworld to become Shor. Anyway, the remaining Men were then removed from Tamriel and deposited on Atmora. While on Atmora, they developed a totemic religion, with the Dragons at the top. It was these Dragonpriests who first started terrorising the Atmoran settlers in Skyrim, which led to the revolt, then the Dragons had to get involved and put it down. Then, Paarthunax taught humans to Shout, and a second rebellion went much better.

 

Now, we know Dragons are of Aedric origin, being related to Akatosh both in form, and their unique interactions with time. We also know that Akatosh = Aur'iel, and that the latter was the leader of the Aedra who vanquished Lorkhan. This means that Akatosh was in charge at the time of Mankind's exodus from Tamriel. Because of their place at the top of the Atmoran totemic religion, and their relationship to Akatosh, it could be that Dragons were put in charge of the surviving humans when Lorkhan fell. This means that the lordship of Dragons over Men has divine mandate. It would also explain why, with the exception of one out-of-game tool-tip, we have no evidence of Dragons trying to enslave Mer. They are both Aedric in origin, and thus cousins, and the Dragons have no such divine mandate over the Mer. It's pretty damned clear Alduin got out of line, but theres nothing to say the other Dragons did until their charges got uppity.

 

Of course, if this is the case, it sticks with the underlying philosophical theme of Skyrim, that being the nature of freedom and the extent of legitimate authority. I think it's also much deeper than the developers thought to get into it, but it is, none the less it is an interesting consideration.

 

If Paarthunax's only crime is the subjugation, but he had a divine mandate to do so, is he in truth guilty of anything? If he had that divine mandate, was his going against it and helping liberate Men his only true crime?

 

Food for thought.

[Inquart]

 

* The actual crimes Paarthunax commited are never defined, and it remains vague if he really did anything.

 

You're right, partially at least. I was referring to "terrible atrocities" mentioned at TES wiki (I think it's quite reliable source, though the Blades - genocidal dragon hunters as they are - also accuse Paarth of some crimes allegedly commited during Dragon War, without of course going into the details and leaving us with a thought that the only real reason they want him dead so badly is because he is a dragon, which is not reason good enough for me to even consider killing him), but his involvement in any war crimes mentioned by me earlier is vague indeed if any at all.

 

However, even with all my sincere sympathy towards Paarth, it's hard for me to believe he was just an innocent observer during the war; as Alduin's brother and right-hand dragon, he must have done and probably did something at least condemnable before switching sides and becoming practically a pacifist over the years. Now, let me get just one thing completely straight - even if he had willingly slaughtered hundreds or thousands of humans before turning against his own kin only to help mankind, I am far from condemning him for it myself; after all, it was an all-out war, started by a rebellion of beings indefinitely weaker than dragons, a rebellion they saw probably almost as an insult, an insolent challenge to their dominion, so it's pretty understandable (for me at least) that they used every advantage they had to drown that uprising in an ocean of blood.

 

As for that divine mandate of dragons to rule over Men...well, there is something in this theory, but I would rather say that dragons - powerful and fearsome, but because of this also arrogant and strongly convinced of their own superiority over any other life form on Nirn (not without reason, of course) - simply accepted the fact that they are the highest beings in Atmoran pantheon, thus allowing first humans to worship them as gods.

[Lachdonin]

 

However, even with all my sincere sympathy towards Paarth, it's hard for me to believe he was just an innocent observer during the war; as Alduin's brother and right-hand dragon, he must have done and probably did something at least condemnable before switching sides and becoming practically a pacifist over the years. Now, let me get just one thing completely straight - even if he had willingly slaughtered hundreds or thousands of humans before turning against his own kin only to help mankind, I am far from condemning him for it myself; after all, it was an all-out war, started by a rebellion of beings indefinitely weaker than dragons, a rebellion they saw probably almost as an insult, an insolent challenge to their dominion, so it's pretty understandable (for me at least) that they used every advantage they had to drown that uprising in an ocean of blood.

 

Something to consider, along this train of thought, is that the Dragons put DOWN one rebellion of the Atmorans in Skyrim. This is clearly recorded on the stones leading up to High Hrothgar. It was then some Dragons (at least one, Paarthunax) taught them to Shout, and they started a second rebellion, leading to the creation of Dragonrend and the banishment of Alduin.

 

Now, if we continue with the assumption that the Dragon Priests started the events causing the first rebellion by lording over their fellow men in the name of the Dragons, making themselves rich on the back of the common folk, it may be possible to get an idea of what drove Paarthunax to betray his kin, and maybe even what made Alduin so bat-s*** crazy evil. Consider, for a moment... The Dragon Priests, realising they can milk the offering system for all its worth, start demanding more and more tribute, keeping most of it for themselves. The common folk rebel, cutting off the flow of tribute to the Dragons, who in turn investigate and then intervene. Things quickly become like cows rebelling against us... IE a laugh riot. Alduin, seeing how simple it is to destroy humans, becomes increasingly egotistical and sure of his own superiority. Paarthunax, on the other hand, sees that humans are not just livestock, but thinking, feeling things worthy of respect.

 

You start to have a divergence between Alduin and Paarthunax (who, it seems, are the 2 oldest Dragons). One becomes evil, the other good. One becomes more sure of his own superiority and right to rule, the other less so and starts to see others, Men in particular, as equals. Thus, Alduin, through the Dragon Priests, continues the reign of tyranny which caused the first rebellion, and Paarthunax (along with any supporters he may have had) takes the side of mortals and helps them acheive equality.

 

Again, purely hypothetical, but if, say, Cows were to rise up against us, and we suddenly realised they were sapient, would we charge all the beef farmers as war criminals?

[Inquart]

Hmm...you see, maybe I missed something or messed something up, but all this time I thought that there was only one human rebellion against the dragons - the one that initially was just a slaughter and later erupted into Dragon War, when the tide was eventually pushed in humanity's favor thanks to Paarth's well-known assistance (i. e. teaching humans how to use the Thu'um). I thought the record on the way to High Hrothgar was referring to that "one and only" rebellion, as "But the Dragons only shouted them down and broke their hearts" from the third stone talking about the slaughter before Paarth switched sides and "Kyne called on Paarthurnax, who pitied Man; Together they taught Men to use the Voice; Then Dragon War raged, Dragon against Tongue" from the fourth stone, referring to now-even chances and the point when the one-sided slaughter turned into a war. I thought the slaughter and Paarth's betrayal of his brethren for Men's sake happened during one conflict.

 

As for Dragon Priests and their practical oligarchy under overall, yet to some point indirect dragon lordship - my thoughts were the same. The Dragon Priests in time grow more and more powerful (and power-hungry) at the expense of those beneath them they were supossed to oversee in dragons' name. I don't know about you, but I think we both say the same to some extend, just with differend words, don't you think? :)

 

When it comes to war crimes - I wrote that with a pinch of salt as such term simply does not exist in Skyrim, much less during Dragon War. As I said before, I can understand dragons' violent response to a rebellion; being one of them and seeing humans (cattle in dragons' eyes) challenging my rule because of some fat Dragon Priests' inability to properly control the masses, I would have done the very same thing Alduin and his kin did.

[BrettM]

The rebellion against the dragon priests clearly had two phases -- before and after Paarthurnax's conversion to the side of humanity -- with an unknown amount of time between them. However, that time must have amounted to years because it would have taken that long for Paarth to train non-dragonborn humans into effective Tongues. Ten or twenty years at the inside, I would think. Would the other humans have just offered themselves up for slaughter during these years by keeping up the fight? I doubt it. So I think there is some justification for considering each phase a separate rebellion, separated by years of peace.

 

Either way, Lachdonin came up with a good explanation of the situation. It's just quibbling to debate whether the rebellion should be considered one or two, because the end result is the same no matter what label you apply to it. Nice job, Lachdonin!

[Inquart]

Okay, now things are clear and not so far from my first thoughts on the matter - human rebellion was a dragon-perpetrated slaughter all the way up to Paarth intervention and an all-out war after his turning. As for some kind of peace between those two phases - humanity might have back down to avoid more casualties on their side, but I really don't think Alduin and the rest would respect that ceasefire and do nothing for a few years, thus allowing mankind to learn how to use the Thu'um; you're not sitting doing nothing when your enemy is arming against you. Maybe during Paarth's tutoring humans hid somewhere in the mountains or have been protected by other dragons, as I doubt Paarth was the only one to side with Men. To do nothing and give mankind time to learn the Thu'um from Paarth would be just stupid and as far as I know, dragons are far from stupid, are they not?

 

Anyway, the past is the past and the end result is all the same, you're right, so I think we can all simply agree on keeping our dear, old Paarthurnax alive.