What do the stormcloaks expect the thalmor to do?

[Blu02]

Multiple NPC's in solitude who were close to Torygg siad that if Ulfric had just asked for Torygg to declare skyrim independent, he'd would have down so. Instead of doing that though, Ulfric walks into the palace and kills Torygg to prove....what exactly? What point did he prove by killing the High King? The only thing that was accomplished by killing the High King was suspiciously leaving the the spot open for anybody to grab...

 

Ulfric had already stated his opinion about making Skyrim independent before going to Solitude. Even if no one knew he would challenge Torygg on his visit, all I hear is that it still was a proper challenge, which Torygg obviously couldn't deny as a High King, and couldn't win because of Ulfric's superior experience.

 

The point of it all was, again, that Torygg was too weak as High King. He let the Empire and Thalmor meddle too much with Skyrim affairs and Ulfric didnt exactly hide his opinions about other Jarl's being corrupted by this. The killing of Torygg was necessary in order to call for a vote amongst the Jarls about a new High King (Not leaving it open for anyone to grab). This was however not possible before driving out the Empire and Thalmor from their courts and replacing any corrupted Jarls, hence the civil war.

 

 

Also multiple NPC's in the empire has stated that they hate the Thalmor just as much as the Stormcloaks, but they believe that the only way to beat the Thalmor in the long run is to stay together until they are strong enough to fight back. The empire doesn't want to do follow the White-Gold Concordat but if they don't the Thalmor would just destroy them.

 

It had already been many years since the White-Gold Concordat was established, and how much longer should they wait? The Thalmor grow stronger over time as well, and they constantly operate around Tamriel while the Empire is acting paralyzed. Their leadership in Cyrodiil is obviously more or less corrupted by Thalmor as well, so hopefully the successful rebellion in Skyrim inspires the Imperials to rise up again to drive out the Thalmor. Seeing how occupied Skyrim was with Imperial soldiers, they have definitely recovered a lot already, but lack proper leadership to act. It's kinda sad though that so many imperial lives have to be wasted in the process.

 

 

Also if you listen to Alvor the Blacksmith in Riverwood he said that before Ulfric started making a big fuss about it, people still had secret shrines in their houses. If Ulfric had just kept his mouth shut people would still be able to worship who they please, just not out in the open.

 

Why would you accept to hide your beliefs in your own homeland? Talos is Nord religion and they are way too proud to deny it. Sure there are still secret shrines all over Skyrim, but fighting for it is more about principles, freedom and pride.

 

 

Another thing that bothers me about Ulfric is that he says he wants to liberate Skyrim, yet has the Dunmer living in slums and ignores their pleas for better living conditions or assist them if they have any problems with bandits. Ulfric wants skyrim for the Nords and only cares about Nord problems, while the Thalmor want the Mer race to be dominant and only care about Thalmor problems. How are they different from each other?

 

The main difference is that Ulfric want Skyrim for the Nords, while the Thalmor want the world for the elves. Ulfric isnt conquering other provinces for his own interest, but only want to give Skyrim back to its people, along with their traditions and freedom.

 

I dont believe that Ulfric is as "racist" as many thinks. If he didnt care about the dunmer, for example, he wouldn't have let them live inside his city walls in the first place. They are safe, have roof over their heads and are allowed to do business in the city. I think Ulfric has a lot of more important concerns to deal with than ungrateful elves (Which I'm surprised his nerves can handle at this point :P ). A reason to why he still bother to help Nords in particular is probably related to the cause of Stormcloaks. A leader has to care and look good for his people.

 

Speak to the altmer Niranye in the market and hear her perspective;

 

"It was difficult at first. The Nords of this city are, at best, suspicious of outsiders. But in time I made the right friends and proved myself useful enough that they don't give me trouble anymore. The Dunmer are too proud and naive to see the way things truly are, and so they continue to dwell in that slum."

 

 

Also I read the Thalmor Dossier, Ulfric is being played for a fool. The Thalmor wanted him to weaken the Empire, so even assuming his intentions are good, He's still just another pawn in the Aldmeri Dominion's plan for controlling all of Tamriel.

 

Depends on how you read it.

 

Ulfric was captured during the war, interrogated and tortured. He later got released, probably after accepting some agreements. Since the Thalmor wanted civil war in Skyrim, I'm sure the whole idea was to let Ulfric start a rebellion against the Empire and corrupted Jarls within the province. Said and done, Ulfric took actions and formed the Stormcloaks to fight the Empire. What wasn't a part of Thalmors plans however was that one side would win (Thanks to a certain dragonborn) before Thalmor got the chance to do whatever they planned on doing while Skyrim was in chaos.

 

So now Ulfric has freed himself from Thalmors intentions, and are acting on his own will. The dossier on Ulfric was written before the Stormcloak victory, when he was indeed just a "pawn in the Aldmeri Dominion's plans". But note that Ulfric never let any Thalmor inside Windhelm and cant even talk to them without making a scene. He's carrying a lot of hatred against the Thalmor, and I'm sure this was his plan ever since he got released from their custody.

 

 

Also, the Thalmor are still very powerful. Ulfric will have a very difficult time trying to defend Skyrim against a full scale assault. Even if he does manage to ward them off it will cost thousands of lives making any efforts to rebuild Skyrim much harder, if even possible.

 

True, but Skyrim is at least fairly surrounded by mountains, and harsh climate in the north which is much more suited for Nords. They have the high ground, which should definitely be a huge advantage if they get enough time to mobilize. The cities in Skyrims corners are also heavily fortified and will not fall easily. But in the long run I think it's all up to how the Empire decides to continue.

[calfurius]

Multiple NPC's in solitude who were close to Torygg siad that if Ulfric had just asked for Torygg to declare skyrim independent, he'd would have down so. Instead of doing that though, Ulfric walks into the palace and kills Torygg to prove....what exactly? What point did he prove by killing the High King? The only thing that was accomplished by killing the High King was suspiciously leaving the the spot open for anybody to grab...

 

Ulfric had already stated his opinion about making Skyrim independent before going to Solitude. Even if no one knew he would challenge Torygg on his visit, all I hear is that it still was a proper challenge, which Torygg obviously couldn't deny as a High King, and couldn't win because of Ulfric's superior experience.

 

The point of it all was, again, that Torygg was too weak as High King. He let the Empire and Thalmor meddle too much with Skyrim affairs and Ulfric didnt exactly hide his opinions about other Jarl's being corrupted by this. The killing of Torygg was necessary in order to call for a vote amongst the Jarls about a new High King (Not leaving it open for anyone to grab). This was however not possible before driving out the Empire and Thalmor from their courts and replacing any corrupted Jarls, hence the civil war.

 

 

Also multiple NPC's in the empire has stated that they hate the Thalmor just as much as the Stormcloaks, but they believe that the only way to beat the Thalmor in the long run is to stay together until they are strong enough to fight back. The empire doesn't want to do follow the White-Gold Concordat but if they don't the Thalmor would just destroy them.

 

It had already been many years since the White-Gold Concordat was established, and how much longer should they wait? The Thalmor grow stronger over time as well, and they constantly operate around Tamriel while the Empire is acting paralyzed. Their leadership in Cyrodiil is obviously more or less corrupted by Thalmor as well, so hopefully the successful rebellion in Skyrim inspires the Imperials to rise up again to drive out the Thalmor. Seeing how occupied Skyrim was with Imperial soldiers, they have definitely recovered a lot already, but lack proper leadership to act. It's kinda sad though that so many imperial lives have to be wasted in the process.

 

 

Also if you listen to Alvor the Blacksmith in Riverwood he said that before Ulfric started making a big fuss about it, people still had secret shrines in their houses. If Ulfric had just kept his mouth shut people would still be able to worship who they please, just not out in the open.

 

Why would you accept to hide your beliefs in your own homeland? Talos is Nord religion and they are way too proud to deny it. Sure there are still secret shrines all over Skyrim, but fighting for it is more about principles, freedom and pride.

 

 

Another thing that bothers me about Ulfric is that he says he wants to liberate Skyrim, yet has the Dunmer living in slums and ignores their pleas for better living conditions or assist them if they have any problems with bandits. Ulfric wants skyrim for the Nords and only cares about Nord problems, while the Thalmor want the Mer race to be dominant and only care about Thalmor problems. How are they different from each other?

 

The main difference is that Ulfric want Skyrim for the Nords, while the Thalmor want the world for the elves. Ulfric isnt conquering other provinces for his own interest, but only want to give Skyrim back to its people, along with their traditions and freedom.

 

I dont believe that Ulfric is as "racist" as many thinks. If he didnt care about the dunmer, for example, he wouldn't have let them live inside his city walls in the first place. They are safe, have roof over their heads and are allowed to do business in the city. I think Ulfric has a lot of more important concerns to deal with than ungrateful elves (Which I'm surprised his nerves can handle at this point :P ). A reason to why he still bother to help Nords in particular is probably related to the cause of Stormcloaks. A leader has to care and look good for his people.

 

Speak to the altmer Niranye in the market and hear her perspective;

 

"It was difficult at first. The Nords of this city are, at best, suspicious of outsiders. But in time I made the right friends and proved myself useful enough that they don't give me trouble anymore. The Dunmer are too proud and naive to see the way things truly are, and so they continue to dwell in that slum."

 

 

Also I read the Thalmor Dossier, Ulfric is being played for a fool. The Thalmor wanted him to weaken the Empire, so even assuming his intentions are good, He's still just another pawn in the Aldmeri Dominion's plan for controlling all of Tamriel.

 

Depends on how you read it.

 

Ulfric was captured during the war, interrogated and tortured. He later got released, probably after accepting some agreements. Since the Thalmor wanted civil war in Skyrim, I'm sure the whole idea was to let Ulfric start a rebellion against the Empire and corrupted Jarls within the province. Said and done, Ulfric took actions and formed the Stormcloaks to fight the Empire. What wasn't a part of Thalmors plans however was that one side would win (Thanks to a certain dragonborn) before Thalmor got the chance to do whatever they planned on doing while Skyrim was in chaos.

 

So now Ulfric has freed himself from Thalmors intentions, and are acting on his own will. The dossier on Ulfric was written before the Stormcloak victory, when he was indeed just a "pawn in the Aldmeri Dominion's plans". But note that Ulfric never let any Thalmor inside Windhelm and cant even talk to them without making a scene. He's carrying a lot of hatred against the Thalmor, and I'm sure this was his plan ever since he got released from their custody.

 

 

Also, the Thalmor are still very powerful. Ulfric will have a very difficult time trying to defend Skyrim against a full scale assault. Even if he does manage to ward them off it will cost thousands of lives making any efforts to rebuild Skyrim much harder, if even possible.

 

True, but Skyrim is at least fairly surrounded by mountains, and harsh climate in the north which is much more suited for Nords. They have the high ground, which should definitely be a huge advantage if they get enough time to mobilize. The cities in Skyrims corners are also heavily fortified and will not fall easily. But in the long run I think it's all up to how the Empire decides to continue.

 

 

We are never going to reach an agreement :pinch: I guess this is what makes the decision so controversial. I personally believe Ulfric is an irrational radical, and you believe Ulfric is a fighter for Skyrim's freedom. But I think wen can both agree on one thing.

 

The Thalmor are ***holes :tongue:

[DieNowIdiots]

Only read if you've finished the War.

 

 

In sovngarde if you sided with the empire and you talk to him. He regrets his actions due to the fact he weakened skyrim and only made the Thalmor stronger. So maybe his thoughts were just clouded by greed and racist thoughts

 

 

Not so related spoiler

 

 

The summerset Isles were only conquered by Talos (Tiber Septim) with the help of Numidium according to the wiki. So even with the dragonborn's help. It would be impossible to take over the Isles if you continue to fight the empire..

 

Edited August 25, 2012 by DieNowIdiots

[tetradite]

If I had a pound for every time I've seen this same "discussion" on these forums, I'd have better graphics cards than 7750's.

[Mzuark]

You guys are deluded if you really think the Stormcloaks could fight the Dominion and win.

[LOL50015]

I don't know what is the problem here, I bet we, the dragonborn, could take down all of them solo.

 

We could use the alchemy/enchnating loop to get badass gear, then we could download some apocalypse spell mods for serious clearing power, in the event we die, the dovahkin could always quick load a previous save.

 

I heard the high level npcs mod increase magic resistance cap to 90%, so that will come in handy,

[chanchan05]

I don't know what is the problem here, I bet we, the dragonborn, could take down all of them solo.

 

We could use the alchemy/enchnating loop to get badass gear, then we could download some apocalypse spell mods for serious clearing power, in the event we die, the dovahkin could always quick load a previous save.

 

I heard the high level npcs mod increase magic resistance cap to 90%, so that will come in handy,

 

We're talking lore, so game bugs and mods don't count you know, because they don't exist in lore.

[LOL50015]

 

I don't know what is the problem here, I bet we, the dragonborn, could take down all of them solo.

 

We could use the alchemy/enchnating loop to get badass gear, then we could download some apocalypse spell mods for serious clearing power, in the event we die, the dovahkin could always quick load a previous save.

 

I heard the high level npcs mod increase magic resistance cap to 90%, so that will come in handy,

 

We're talking lore, so game bugs and mods don't count you know, because they don't exist in lore.

 

 

I was being sarcastic. :p

[chanchan05]

 

 

I don't know what is the problem here, I bet we, the dragonborn, could take down all of them solo.

 

We could use the alchemy/enchnating loop to get badass gear, then we could download some apocalypse spell mods for serious clearing power, in the event we die, the dovahkin could always quick load a previous save.

 

I heard the high level npcs mod increase magic resistance cap to 90%, so that will come in handy,

 

We're talking lore, so game bugs and mods don't count you know, because they don't exist in lore.

 

 

I was being sarcastic. :tongue:

 

 

Doesn't translate well in text LOL.

[imperistan]

Only read if you've finished the War.

 

 

In sovngarde if you sided with the empire and you talk to him. He regrets his actions due to the fact he weakened skyrim and only made the Thalmor stronger. So maybe his thoughts were just clouded by greed and racist thoughts

 

 

Not so related spoiler

 

 

The summerset Isles were only conquered by Talos (Tiber Septim) with the help of Numidium according to the wiki. So even with the dragonborn's help. It would be impossible to take over the Isles if you continue to fight the empire..

 

 

 

I would imagine anyone would have similar things to say if they just died after having their cause fail miserably. Post Civil War, an independent Skyrim would be stronger compared to a Skyrim still a part of the Empire. Would they be strong enough to fight the Dominion? Yes, presuming its a matter of defense. Offense is anyone's guess (a lot of it depends on Hammerfel and whether or not the remnants of the Empire decide to stand behind Skyrim), but at least they aren't sitting around waiting for a chance that will never come. The Dominion is no position to invade Skyrim without massive complications and a Skyrim that'll see them coming from miles away.

 

 

 

 

The original Aldmeri Dominion had several thousand years to grow into what it was when Tiber Septim came conquering. And regardless, whose to say that without the Numidium that Septim couldn't have conquered the Dominion? While the Dominion navies were considered superior, it wasn't like Septim ever actually tried fighting them (So far as we know anyway). And it certainly wasn't like the Numidium was a last ditch effort either.

 

But even disregarding all that, the new Dominion is simply no where near the strength of its predecessor. It hasn't had the time to develop the kind of strength the original Dominion was supposed to have. And lets remember that they didn't do as well in the beginning of the Great War because of sheer military might. They did well then because they cut the Legions six ways and we're already invading Empire territory by the time the leaders of the Empire were even aware that war was imminent.