Derailing the Railroads of Skyrim

[kryptopyr]

Also, I think at least one or two of the bugged quests you mention (Red Eagle & the Bards College, for example) have been fixed by the Unofficial Patch. I understand that that won't prevent them from starting initially, but at least they won't restart. Edited August 31, 2012 by kryptopyr

[sinnerman69]

I can assure you the smart members would have committed by now on this debauchery of the game and how quests are given, ever think the way it's distributed [quests] now in skyrim might be why we see less CTD's compared to how quests are given in other Bethesda games like Fallout New Vegas which has tons of CTD's even without mods installed!..

 

I'm not going to argue on this anymore because you've thinking to deep into it and your not looking at the fun aspect of the game, less deep thinking more play!.. :thumbsup:

Edited August 31, 2012 by sinnerman69

[kryptopyr]

@sinnerman69

Why do you feel it's necessary to offend someone just because they want to play the game in a different way then you do? If everyone wanted to play the exact same way, then there really wouldn't be much need for all these mods.

 

I also fail to see the connection between journal entries and CTD? I've never played Fallout, but given what I do know about how you trigger quests to start in Skyrim and how journal entries are created, I'm having trouble believing that there's a direct connection.

[sinnerman69]

@sinnerman69

Why do you feel it's necessary to offend someone just because they want to play the game in a different way then you do? If everyone wanted to play the exact same way, then there really wouldn't be much need for all these mods.

 

I also fail to see the connection between journal entries and CTD? I've never played Fallout, but given what I do know about how you trigger quests to start in Skyrim and how journal entries are created, I'm having trouble believing that there's a direct connection.

 

 

I did not swear once or have I ever here or tolerate it or use facepalm picard images or sarcastic smileys and are take apart his first post in paragraph line for line mockery and only thought he put to much thought into the matter and needed to think less deeply on the matter and enjoy the game and have fun!..

[Moraevik]

@kryptopyr: I haven't set a particular goal, yet. This topic is for discussion of options that we, as players who want to play the game our way, might be able to have. Avoiding comments, rumors, etc., is one of those ways. Not having those initiate quests is another. I don't know which is better because some people will go with one and other people will go with the other. This thread is for discussing the issues and possible solutions to the issues, even if those solutions are mutually exclusive.

 

I actually do use your mods for the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, and have had them enabled for my last two play-throughs. I haven't tested the Thieves Guild one, yet, because I notice that every time I approach the market area Brynjolf starts walking toward me so I just disabled him, rather than take a chance on getting jerked into a conversation I don't want to have. Note that this happened even when I first went into Riften and had a completely clean nose -- no thefts, no pickpockets, no tresspasses, and not even an assualt. The only entry in the Crime section was for picking locks, which is nearly unavoidable in this game.

 

Not everyone uses the USP, although I can't for the life of me, figure out why this is so. Yes, it did fix the infinite Red Eagle quest bug. I'm not sure about the Bard's College bug. I still don't pick up those items when I see them in a chest.

 

I use a mod that at least makes the Stones of Barenziah able to be dropped. It's not a perfect solution. Best would be the ability to talk to Vex about them even if you're not a member of the Thieves Guild. Once you have all of them then you can sell them to her and that's that. Over and done with. If you later join the Thieves Guild then you should be able to acquire the follow-up quest to restore the crown.

 

@sinnerman69: For the record I don't feel offended by your persistence in attempting to argue the merits of the Freedom of Choice approach to this game. I just find it terribly annoying that you continued to post off-topic in a thread that has a very specific and clearly-stated agenda. If you want to contribute something positive (reports of railroading, how to avoid it, or suggestions on how to mod it away), then you're welcome in this thread. If you don't, then just don't post. Getting a page of argumentation about the merits of Freedom of Choice is just going to put people off. I want to keep this discussion civil and friendly and on-topic.

 

You're welcome to your approach to the game. I'm welcome to mine, and I know a lot of people share my sense of disappointment that Choice has all but been eliminated from ES as of Skyrim. This thread is about bringing it back -- not about arguing whether or not Choice is a good thing, or whether or not it's possible to have fun playing in a game where you aren't shepherded around like a total moron, or even bashing Bethesda, which I'm sure a lot of people would like to do. I have a lot of fun playing Skyrim, even though I don't feel compelled to play it like the developers intended. I'm sure they made their design choices for what seemed to them to be good reasons, so I'm not arguing that. It's just that I have to rely upon the moddig community to fix things that I think were broken, unfinished, or not well thought-through.

 

I felt the same way about Oblivion, and will probably feel the same way about the next ES game. I'd probably enjoy Morrowind, because it doesn't have a lot of the issues regarding Choice that later ES games have. Unfortunately, I'm not willing to invest in a game that likely won't run correctly, if at all, on my Win 7 64-bit machine, so I'll probably never know. As for the current generation of ES, that's what the modding community is all about -- tailoring the game to suit our own particular needs and desires.

 

So, let's just be friends and agree to disagree on our philosophical approaches to game design. As I stated, there's room in this world for both. Everyone to each his own, as the old saying goes.

[kryptopyr]

Well, if you're looking for opinions and discussion, then this is my preference... I rarely feel that the game 'forces' me into a quest, which is why I wasn't sure if I was entirely understanding you. Generally, I feel that you are given the option of ignoring a quest or just walking away from a conversation. From my perspective, there are only a few times when you really get stuck in a situation or have a quest truly 'forced' upon you. The issue for me is journal clutter. I like lists, and it bothers me to have this list of objectives that is cluttered with all these things that I've decided not to finish. I really just want a way to remove those quests from my journal. This isn't really a critical issue to me, more of an annoyance.

 

Brynjolf's force greet package is one of the really annoying offenders for me. I typically play thief characters and his behavior still irked me. There are one or two others that I do feel are somewhat 'forced', but in general you can choose to ignore the quests if you want.

 

One quest where I did really feel stuck is Molag Bal's quest when you're trapped in the house. However, strangely enough, while I didn't like what you have to do for the quest, in this case, I actually liked that they forced your hand. It's a nasty quest (ethically speaking), and one that you can easily walk into without having a clue what you're getting your character into. But to me, it was one of the most immersive moments I've had in the game. I'm not sure even in Oblivion that I ever had such a vivid understanding of how the daedric gods can choose to use and manipulate mortals. That quest drove home for me just how much power the gods can wield over an individual's choices and actions. (I've never actually finished that quest...my character escaped the house and hasn't gone back).

 

My solution for the Stones of Barenziah is a bit different than what you describe. I don't really disagree with the game's choice to only have Vex deal with you once you are in the Guild. There should be another option to get rid of the stones, though, so I wanted to create a choice that wasn't connected to the Guild. After all, someone player a good character might not want to have any dealings with Thieves Guild...and really, if people in Skyrim care enough about these stones to have them sitting around their houses, then surely it isn't unreasonable that someone would want to buy them. My mod shouldn't conflict with the droppable mod, and it is a reversible choice as well. Should you later chose to join the Guild and want to complete the full quest you can buy back the stones and hand them over to Vex.

 

I think having other options and alternative ways to finish quests would be great, though that tends to take a lot more time and effort, so I wouldn't expect to see too many mods do that, particularly on a large-scale basis (there are a few that have done this for specific quests, though). Also, I'm looking forward to trying Better Quest Objectives in my next play-though. I don't particularly like being led around by the nose, and I think this mod looks like a decent solution to at least part of the problem.

[Moraevik]

I fully understand your perspective, kryptopyr. However, the only reason that something appears in your journal is that you have a quest for that entry. In this sense, every time an unwanted journal entry appears you have been forced to accept a quest, whether you choose to pursue it, or not.

 

Frankly, I'm with you. Let me have the option to delete the entry from my journal. I think journal clutter is one of the most irritating things in this game, even though I know some people consider it a non-issue.

 

Most of the railroading can be solved with something that seems, conceptually, very simple to me. Unfortunately, I don't have the scripting expertise to solve it. When you're involved in any situation (conversation, greeting, reading a book, touching an object, etc.) that can force a quest into your journal, you should be presented with a pop-up that asks you if you want to accept the quest or not. If you choose "no" then the script that forces the quest will simply not do so. This would solve the problem for all veteran players who are already familiar with the ramifications of their actions.

 

For novice players the problem is a bit more difficult. You might not know, for instance, about the moral ramifications of helping the Vigilant in Markarth. So, perhaps, said pop-up might warn the player that helping him will initiate a Daedric quest and that the quest will contain features that some players might find objectionable, including the cold-blooded murder of two people. This will give the player the opportunity to back out of the quest before it ever gets assigned. Yes, I know. This isn't strict role-playing, and is a bit of the "hand-holding" I complained about, earlier, but it's far better than presenting a player with a good character the dilemma of not being able to get out of the house without committing an evil act. And, yes, I know. You can just revert to a prior save, but that's as immersion-breaking as giving a player warnings about possible moral repercussions of actions that the game tricks him into doing.

 

Another solution to this would be to insure that the house can be exited without interacting with Molag Bal, or be given the opportunity to tell him just where he can stick his mace. Either option could trigger the failure (and therefore end) of his quest, and you'd be done with it forever.

 

Another instance would be encountering Meridia's Beacon and picking it up. This initiates Meridia's quest. Now, I can't imagine anyone, unless he's playing a character who wants nothing to do with the Daedra, not wanting to do this, but some people might not. Perhaps the Beacon could be made so that it is droppable, rather than getting stuck in the inventory as a quest item. If you have to actively accept the quest that Meridia attempts to force upon you, then it never gets flagged as a quest item. Once you accept Meridia's "offer you can't refuse" then it becomes a quest object and her quest gets logged into your journal. At least this preserves the role-playing.

 

These all seem like what should be fairly simple scripting changes, but I know nothing about Papyrus so I could be off-mark, here.

[StayFrosty05]

Okay...here's my wish list:

 

1/ "NO!" means NO! and fails the quest....greys it out places it in the done pile....examples:

 

a) Refusing a Daedra's request....if you tell said Daedra to take a hike, the quest should be marked as failed and moved to done pile

b) Brynjolf leaves you the hell alone after you either tell him to rack off or break conversation with him....both options lead to the same remark from him.

c) Saying you won't kill Paarthurnax should fail the 'Kill Paarturnax' quest...and having the ability to tell Delphine/Esburn your decision.

d) Option to make it clear to the Aretino Kid you are not an Assassin.....Though I personally love being able to destroy the DB after the frustration of not being able to in Oblivion.

 

2/ No more dangling the Carrot...Bethesda either puts up or shuts up....examples:

 

a) Riftens TG....If I turn Brynjolf down, I would love the option to destroy the TG to replace joining them.

b) Have the ability to be pro-active about bringing Maven Black Briar and the Silver Bloods down....effectively destroying their operations as such.

c) Be able to take pro-active action in regards to the Forsworn in the Reach...with the choice of either for or against them.

 

3/ No more rail roaded allegiances....examples:

 

a) Joining the Mages College to complete the Main Quest...It's the MAIN QUEST for gods sake, what the whole game hinges on...there should be no enforced conscription's on that one....yes, I know there is a way around if you know the game or have the Official Guide, but that is not only immersion breaking, but also just a straight up RP breaking scripting for Bethesda to pull.

b) A way around having to deal with the Blades full stop would be very cool.... :happy: ....That's just because I really can not stand Delphine and how my Dovahkin is forced to kow-tow to her with that shocking 12 year old standard dialog and options.

 

4/ No more forced side quests journal entries....examples:

 

a) Gauldur Amulet....be very careful what you read....And surprise, surprise.... :dry: ....you cannot even complete that quest unless you join the MAGES COLLEGE!.... :dry: ...There is definitely a love affair somewhere in Bethesda's departments for the Mages College....who wouldn't want to join?....ME!

 

Sorry, I am starting to get snakey thinking about those irritations in an otherwise great game....so will leave it at this....Peace out.... :happy:

Edited September 1, 2012 by StayFrosty05

[kryptopyr]

I think that some of the things you want to do would be simple quest changes, and in many cases, I think you could accomplish a lot of what you want through changes to the quest objectives and the setting of quest stages. I would probably recommend reading a few tutorials on creating quests and look at how they create objectives and set stages. Then try playing around with a few of the quests in the CK. If you can pinpoint what exactly triggers the quest (picking up an object, a certain line of dialogue, entering a specific place, etc), then you can delete or change the objective, so it doesn't appear in the journal, or change it so the initial stage doesn't get set and the quest doesn't start at all. However, because there are so many things in the game that are interconnected if you stop one quest from starting, it could also have an effect on other quests. So while the change itself might be simple, you do need to make sure you understand the ramifications that the change might have and correct for them if needed.

 

Personally, I would find the sort of changes you're talking about (pop-up message boxes and content warnings) to be extremely immersion breaking, much more so then just having to occasionally revert to a previous save or tolerate the journal clutter. I don't think it's very realistic, regardless of what type of character you're playing, to be able to completely avoid any sort of objectionable situation or moral quandary. Life just doesn't work that way, so I guess there's no reason that I would expect the game to. We don't know what the future will hold and can't always accurately predict the implications of our actions. Nevertheless, that's just my preference, and I do know that there are others who feel as you do (my mods have received plenty of comments to that effect), and I'm sure there are those who would appreciate a mod like that, so I wish you the best of luck and hope you succeed in your efforts.

 

EDIT: I just finished and uploaded the Stones of Barenziah mod. Here's the link if you're interested: http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/23431

Edited September 1, 2012 by kryptopyr

[AnkhAscendant]

I completely agree with StayFrosty's "wish list". I want to tell Brynjolf where to shove his scheme, and I want to tell Lelia Law-giver everything I know about Maven, and I want to tell Delphine to dive off a cliff. But just a "no" would work okay, I guess. ;) (I also want to second the Forsworn point they made.)

 

I never felt particularly railroaded into the College, but that was probably because that was the first thing I did after I felt like I could escape Whiterun. I spent the whole game feeling like it was trying to funnel me into the Thieve's Guild, though, and it offended me so much that I never made a thief character to play the TG. With the shadowmarks, the invisible walls, and the quests sending you there I felt like the developers spent more time on the Thieves than on all of the other factions combined, which made me want a quest to wipe them out.

 

All of that's a lot of modding, though, and having to have voice actors for new dialogue and would be very time consuming. Since being able to actively 'fail' a quest in your journal or delete entries altogether is apparently impossible, kryptopyr's suggestion seems to be the best way (as I too am against popups).

 

Specific suggestions or issues:

• 
   
  
• Red Eagle and Gauldur Amulet quests would be very difficult to start since the book quests lead you to the items. However, I think I'm okay with that. Having the Gauldur Amulet start when you actually find the first piece of it, and Red eagle when you actually pick up the rusty old sword in the front of the tomb, seems actually more realistic.
   
  
• The Imperial Legion and Stormcloaks: let them say their greetings, don't have it start the quest, and instead have a "Where do I sign up" sort of dialogue option for them all that would start it.
   
  
• Main Quest: I don't know for sure, but it might be possible to change the script for Dragon Rising so it doesn't start until you agree to take the news of the dragon to the Jarl. In that case you should also have an alternate beginning stage for people who skip Riverwood, maybe when you get to Whiterun and the guards block you, although I'm not sure that's a great place for it. Then again, story-wise, you do have to talk your way into the city, so I suppose it would make sense to show up in your journal once you told the guards that was what you were there to do. (You would have to make sure that the guard dialogue doesn't already check for that quest stage to be active.)
   
  
• Change the DB quest so that it doesn't start on the rumor but when you go talk to him or ask about him at the orphanage. (I believe that is you ask about things, it's your own fault you get a quest.)
   
  
• I would leave Molag Bal alone myself, because he is evil and likes forcing good people to do evil, but if you really want to be able to sanitize your game I would suggest making the door Master-level locked and hide the key somewhere in the house. It will be hell to find it with Molag Bal's visual effects going on and him being terrifying at you, but if you want out enough you can.
   
  
• I don't agree with making the main quest dependent shouts completely independent, such as hiding Dragonrend out in the world (although it would be nice). Otherwise what's the point of the actual quest? However, changing it to skip over the Blades I would be fine with, although making it so that it would actually work along the original main quest may not be possible. I would only want it to be that you could do the MQ as designed, or skip over some or all quest stages. I don't have specific suggestions for that, just the fact that, outside of hiding the words out in the world somewhere, it would be very complicated.
   
  
• The invisible walls around the bee farm and Snowveil dungeon (I know you didn't mention them, but they railroad you into the Thieves Guild) can, I assume, be removed, and the lock on Snowveil turned from a Key to a Master, and then that opens up that word, at least. (I don't have suggests for the College and Companions words, if that won't work for them. I would just make the dungeons so that you can get into them without being in the factions.)
   
  
• Make it so that you can get into the college and speak to the Orc without being a member, if you can't already by telling Faralda you just want to see inside. I imagine that you can't because the first class quest is probably started the first time you go there, so everyone's initial reactions to you would have to be edited. Complicated.
  

 

I do have an addition; Dawnguard added another quest book, "The Aetherium Wars", which tells you to go explore a Dwarven ruin. The same solution as Red Eagle should work.

 

Also, I (think I) have an addition/correction to your original list. Vaermina's quest is like Namira or Mehrunes Dagon, where you can tell the Daedra where to stuff it, and not kill the priest (and thus not get her artifact). Most of that questline is for him instead of for her, so that one is also not quite as railroaded.

 

Edited to add that Azura's quest starts with a rumor as well; I heard about her shrine from the innkeeper in Riverwood and it stuck in my journal just like DB.

Edited September 3, 2012 by AnkhAscendant