Frequent freezes

[CaptainPatch]

Well, at this point I can't proceed until I can open NMM again. Some people have mentioned some kind of hotfix to correct the problem that the most recent update introduced, but I haven't seen it yet. (Not knowing where to look might have something to do with that.) Trying to open NMM still pops an error message instead of any new update that would hopefully remedy the problem. In the meantime, I'm busying myself playing an assortment of Windows games and dabbling with Port Royale 3. (yawn) [Amazing how listless I become when I don't have some challenging game to keep my mind sharp.]

[acidzebra]

Have you tried removing it with windows add/remove programs and grabbing a fresh copy from here?

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/modmanager

 

If that doesn't work, you could always pass the time with some retro-gaming, google c64 emulator, there are even online emulators running in java these days :)

[CaptainPatch]

So, I've done the Remove Software and then used the link to reinstall NMM. But when it opened, whereas the Plugins list remained the same, the Mods tab is now completely empty.

 

Reinstating the Crimson Tide plugin. Now to see if I can reopen the Saved game.

[CaptainPatch]

Update: VERY surprisingly, after having reinstated the Crimson Tide mod in NMM, I was actually able to play for several hours without experiencing any freeze or CTD. I was just starting to thinking, "Wow. It may be cured!" when the game froze. Then after Alt-Ctrl-Del-ing to Task Manager out of the frozen game and restarting Skyrim, I was promptly back to freezes every five minutes or so.

 

That long stretch with no freezes, followed by regular freezes every five minutes makes me suspect that there is something going on with the RAM cache (8 Gb). Once that fills up with Skyrim data, _then_ the freezes begin. Thereafter, if I immediately jump back into the game, all of that previous Skyrim RAM data is still there. So instead of having a lot of "elbow room" for data storage, it seems like the game is trying to get by with only a few Mb RAM storage. Given just how much data is constantly streaming into and through RAM, it doesn't take long for a grifdlock to occur.

 

It's a theory, anyway. I'll have to see what happens if after a freeze, I reboot the PC (thereby deliberately flushing the RAM cache).

[acidzebra]

I'm not sure in what context you're using the term "RAM cache" - does your system have 8GB ram total? Skyrim is a 32-bit app, and with the latest patches it can address (I think) up to about 4 GB of RAM, and no more.

 

My main question would be after getting everything running again did you remove Crimson tide in the way I described? Because it could also be something like bad scripts stacking and stacking until POW! Or, who knows, your GPU temperature slowly building to a critical level. Or background programs hogging the RAM you need. Or gremlins. Can't discount gremlins.

[IsharaMeradin]

That long stretch with no freezes, followed by regular freezes every five minutes makes me suspect that there is something going on with the RAM cache (8 Gb). Once that fills up with Skyrim data, _then_ the freezes begin. Thereafter, if I immediately jump back into the game, all of that previous Skyrim RAM data is still there. So instead of having a lot of "elbow room" for data storage, it seems like the game is trying to get by with only a few Mb RAM storage. Given just how much data is constantly streaming into and through RAM, it doesn't take long for a grifdlock to occur.

You hit the nail on the head. Skyrim has a memory cap and when that is reached it crashes, freezes, etc. It's different for each person and each computer tho the more mods installed the shorter the time frame becomes for that computer.

 

Best thing you can do is make regular saves and learn how long you can go before a crash then exit and reboot your computer before going back in to play. You can try third party tools that 'clean the ram' but that's like a band-aid on a gunshot wound. In the long run a reboot is best as it is assured to clear out your memory caches. I'm also told that what's better than a reboot is a complete shutdown and waiting for some minutes before turning it back on.

 

Another helpful thing is to defragment your hard drive, with all the mod installing and uninstalling done it can get fragmented quick and that only helps to slow things down....

[Kynesgrove]

IsharaMeradin, your theory is pleasing, insofar as it helps me accept that my game is not this invincible thing that I can rely on unconditionally... I'm trying to be careful with my mod use but have undoubtedly screwed up once or twice or thrice. Any number of crashes or freezes are unacceptable to me. But this week something just broke. Still, I got through two giant, epic games, I mean like combat-intensive ten-hour sessions, and it was THEN, at the end that I got my CTD (two of the three instances anyway). Maybe letting the game cool down (i.e. rebooting computer to clear memory) once in a while might help.

[acidzebra]

As an engineer this all is starting to sound like superstition - I'll be the first to admit that restarting a computer does have its place in the troubleshooting hierarchy but the memory cap hypothesis at least is easily tested - open resource monitor in win 7 (you'll find it in the start menu or start > run > perfmon /res), go to the memory tab, and keep it running in the background. I have trouble pushing Skyrim about 1.7 GB even with a ton of demanding mods and going to ridiculously large and detailed cells, and I'm running on a 64 bit system with lots of RAM. I don't see "ghost RAM" being used by a previously CTD'd skyrim. You can too - details below (skip to the memory resource usage if you're running 64-bit windows with at least 8 GB of RAM.

 

WINDOWS VERSIONS (32bit vs 64bit)

I don't know what windows version everyone is running, there might still be people running 32 bit windows for all I know. Hell, they may still be running Windows XP despite it being over a decade old. If you ARE still running XP 32 bit (x86) instead of 64 bit (x64), Skyrim (even the latest version) will only be able to address 2 GB of RAM UNLESS you have set the /3GB boot switch in windows. If you are running Vista/7 starter edition, you won't be able to use more than 2 GB. All other 32-bit versions of vista/7 (home, pro, whatever else marketing came up with) in the 32-bit incarnations support up to 4GB RAM - and skyrim will be able to use it BUT you'll be sharing it with other programs. If you are running x64 on XP/Vista/7, Skyrim will be able to allocate up to 4 GB and your OS can go beyond that.

 

TL;DR - you should really upgrade to a 64-bit system and have at a bare minimum 4 GB of RAM, 8 GB preferred. Leave XP behind - like I said, it's over a decade old. And if you're unable or unwilling to upgrade at this time, yes, you may run out of RAM, because that <4GB of RAM is going to be shared with other applications too. That means swapping, that means everything grinding to a slow annoying crawl and possibly crashes.

 

MEMORY AND OTHER RESOURCE USAGE

Now, assuming you're running 64bit windows and have plenty of RAM, have a look at resource monitor and the windows task manager (you can find both in the start menu or CTRL+SHIFT+ESC to start task manager, you can launch resource monitor from the performance tab). Run them in the background while playing. They will tell you exactly how much skyrim is using at any given time. Task manager will keep track of max usage - see the "peak working set" column in the processes tab. Both will also tell you what other programs are running. Chances are this is a large list. PCs are a general purpose computing platform unlike xboxes etc which are dedicated gaming platforms. This means skyrim has to compete with other programs for resources. Demanding games, in general, don't play nice with others and don't take well to being interrupted. If you have a ton of processes in the background demanding CPU power, internet access, and other things, chances are skyrim will be much less stable.

 

I'll not go into a long discussion of which programs are safe to disable, but if you want the best gaming experience possible you owe it to yourself to invest some time to see and understand what kind of applications are started at startup and as services, and which ones you really want and which ones you can safely disable. The average PC will be starting all kinds of garbage in the background without you knowing it, a "gift" from all those programs you've installed over time. Do you really need java updater, google updater, adobe updater, apple push, quicktime and other tasks to be running in the background and eating resources? Probably not, but only you can answer that. If you've never in your life run a program like msconfig or autoruns, your PC is not tuned for the best skyrim (or other gaming) experience. Even a clean windows install with zero programs added runs a ton of unnecessary stuff. You may even want to consider disabling the pretty aero interface - especially on older graphic cards. As a bonus, learning about this and disabling unneeded startup programs and services will also improve your PC use experience for years to come - it's a good investment of your time IMHO. If you are feeling lost using these tools (msconfig or autoruns, the first comes with your OS > start menu > run > msconfig and the second is available from Microsoft for free), PM me and I'll be glad to help out any way I can.

 

TEMPERATURE MEASUREMENT

Speaking of gaming experience, are you sure your GPU isn't slowly overheating while playing skyrim? Grab a tool like gpu-z and keep it running in the background together with resource monitor and task manager while you play to keep track of your GPU temperature and VRAM usage. It's free, get it here - http://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/ - and open the sensors tab. And if you're overclocking your GPU or CPU, great, but then you already know that performance often comes at a cost to stability, especially at peak loads. Finally (and this should go without saying) make sure your video card drivers are up to date.

 

In Dutch, there is a saying "meten is weten" which is an amusing/groan-inducing rhyme meaning "to measure is to know". And unless you measure, you will never really know. Your PC provides the tools to let you know exactly what is going on with your RAM and video card - use them. As for defragging, I think that had its glory days in the time of IDE drives and XP, with win7 and fast sata drives I don't really see the dramatic performance improvements we once saw. And to SSD drives (which I personally recommend especially if you're running huge texture packs) it is anathema - don't defrag, period.

 

Of course, even a PC optimized to the hilt won't be able to make a skyrim install with a bunch of randomly installed/pulled/conflicting or just badly written mods and a bloated savegame run well - but it will give you a stable starting point from where you can try and get skyrim running stable even with tons of mods - it is an attainable goal.

Edited October 20, 2012 by acidzebra

[IsharaMeradin]

That's all fine and good but doesn't change the fact that when you have a known problem that seems to be affected by a certain mod and so you are testing out after a fresh reboot by adding in one mod at a time to see when this problem arises that the problem appears with the addition of a totally different mod and then no matter how many mods you remove it continues to happen. That says SOMETHING is preventing the game from operating correctly, especially when after another fresh reboot the problem totally disappears.

 

Case in point, I had installed a mod called Zamfir's Archery Emporium. When I approached the area with the tent which happened to be across the creek from the Pelagia farm where the companions and the giant were supposed to be fighting, they were not. They all just stood there. I tried many things and the closest to working correctly I got was to run down the hill instead of following the road. I would find at least one of the three fighting the giant.

So I did further testing, rebooted the computer, uninstalled all mods, reverted the game to a pure stock state and played a stock character thru to Riverwood and made a save on the bridge. Then I slowly added in mods and tested after every 2-5 mods to see what happened. The entire scenario worked fine even after adding in Zamfir's Archery Emporium, but I still had a few more mods to go. Added one of those and BOOM got the same non-fighting scenario. At first I thought it was a SKSE issue since the mod added was the first of a couple SKSE required mods. But no, when I rebooted my computer and tried it out again the scenario was fine.

 

You can see that Skyrim does have a limit. That limit may really be defined by the player's system, but it is a limit for Skyrim too. After a fresh reboot, start an unmodded game and note how smooth the transition to the char gen window is. Add in a race mod, a body mod, eye mod, face mod, hair mod, extended color mod, and another six race mods for those followers you want, reboot the computer and start the game then note the transition to the char gen window. In all likelihood the game will crash or freeze. Why? It's limit was reached. Sure the technical detail might be system ram allocation or something else, but the fact remains that Skyrim's assigned limit was reached.

 

Is it a lie to say that Skyrim has a limit? No. Its just not the nitty gritty details. I'm not qualified to properly explain the details, but I do know that Skyrim is limited by what your computer can do. Rather than trying to explain all that, it is simpler and for majority of individuals easier to comprehend when you just say "Skyrim has a limit and when reached it will crash, freeze or have other problems"

 

In all reality, the user just needs to learn their machine and what it is capable of doing in regards to Skyrim. My motto has become Reboot & Reduce meaning reboot the computer and use less mods.

[Kynesgrove]

AcidZebra, thank you for the useful tips. I'm going to try to monitor some of the processes running in the background pursuant to your instructions.

 

Ishara, my gut still tells me you are on to something in terms of this abstract "limit".