Soldier aiming progression

[Koshea69]

Bonuses gained when your chance to hit are low have a greater impact on your damage output than bonuses gained when your chance to hit is high. To use an extreme example, getting +10 Offense when your chance to hit was only 10% to start with doubles your chance to hit. Getting +10 Offense when your chance to hit was 80% increases your odds of hitting by 1/8th. If you want to make a smoother progression from newbie to expert, start with smaller bonuses and increase them slowly.

 

I was going to use this argument for why you would want constant growth across all levels actually.

 

As mentioned before the difference between a completely unskilled person and a novice at shooting is quite remarkable (bordering on infinite if they can't figure out how to load, take the safety off and fire in the right direction). The difference between a novice and someone who puts some time into it is pretty big yet again, as you go up in skill level, it starts taking someone who knows more and more about the subject to point out the differences in technique that make someone better (I recently watch the Olympic judo competition with someone who's been doing judo for 10+ years, it's amazing the things you don't see), though you can easily see the results. I think I'll be setting it up for a constant gain, I didn't know there was this high-low-high progression. Between more XP required for higher levels, perks coming with every promotion and having it build on already higher and higher aim numbers, I think constant is the way to go.

[Koshea69]

I'm going to add it into my mod changes and see how it goes in-game.

 

 

yarp, as originally suspected this re-arrangment of stats doesnt work well in-game.

 

It makes early game far to easy with "super-snipers" the main culprits.

 

If there is any point in the game where you need the help, it's early game :) still don't want 1 class dominating any aspect.

[Anbar]

I'm going to add it into my mod changes and see how it goes in-game.

 

 

yarp, as originally suspected this re-arrangment of stats doesnt work well in-game.

 

It makes early game far to easy with "super-snipers" the main culprits.

 

If there is any point in the game where you need the help, it's early game :) still don't want 1 class dominating any aspect.

 

yes. i agree, but with eraly scope develpment the increase is MASSIVE.

 

Squaddie 8

Corporal 7

Sergeant 6

 

SCOPE 10

 

= 31gain to the too-hit and youa re probably just into April... sniper too-hit now being 96.

 

Its too much.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Anbar

[Daemonjax]

I'm going to add it into my mod changes and see how it goes in-game.

 

 

yarp, as originally suspected this re-arrangment of stats doesnt work well in-game.

 

It makes early game far to easy with "super-snipers" the main culprits.

 

Snipers in particular need to be a class that requires slow-cooking.

 

It would probably work better for the others, but I still think something like the inverted bell curve is best for gameplay for balance reasons.

 

One change I did make was that I distributed 5 more aim points to the heavy class over the course of his career. ;)

 

SoldierStatProgression=(eClass=eSC_HeavyWeapons, eRank=eRank_Squaddie,	iHP=1, iAim=3, iWill=2, iDefense=5, iMobility=0 )
SoldierStatProgression=(eClass=eSC_HeavyWeapons, eRank=eRank_Corporal,	iHP=0, iAim=2, iWill=2, iDefense=0, iMobility=0 )
SoldierStatProgression=(eClass=eSC_HeavyWeapons, eRank=eRank_Sergeant,	iHP=1, iAim=2, iWill=2, iDefense=0, iMobility=0 )
SoldierStatProgression=(eClass=eSC_HeavyWeapons, eRank=eRank_Lieutenant,iHP=0, iAim=2, iWill=2, iDefense=0, iMobility=0 )
SoldierStatProgression=(eClass=eSC_HeavyWeapons, eRank=eRank_Captain,	iHP=1, iAim=1, iWill=2, iDefense=0, iMobility=0 )
SoldierStatProgression=(eClass=eSC_HeavyWeapons, eRank=eRank_Major,	iHP=0, iAim=2, iWill=2, iDefense=0, iMobility=0 )
SoldierStatProgression=(eClass=eSC_HeavyWeapons, eRank=eRank_Colonel,	iHP=0, iAim=3, iWill=2, iDefense=0, iMobility=0 )

 

Ignore the reduced hitpoints, since it has nothing to do with what we're talking about here. :D

Edited October 16, 2012 by Daemonjax

[Gazzzz]

I think constant is the way to go.

I've been thinking about that, too.

When the XP-progression is already scaled then the two systems would be fighting each other. Generally that's not good idea unless you have a very specific reason why you would want to do that.

[Anbar]

yeah I think i'm gonna go with daemonjax's...

[Perraine]

Personally i think the devs got the balance pretty much right ...

 

(slightly OT) ... I have a sniper who has 117 aim (with the scope) but it took her until Col. rank to get there, and I had to be VERY careful and protective of her to start with, but with the +25% XP/kill bonus, the "Squad Sight" ability and getting her to use the pistol to run around and "overwatch" with it until i found her a good "Snipers Nest" so she could pull out her sniper rifle, she still managed to level up in about 8/9 missions ... She now has 168/22 kills/missions to her name, and she basically never misses, but you'd expect that from a highest ranked specialist.

 

(BTT)

 

The "heavy" on the other hand is basically useless, except for suppression, as they don't seem able to even hit the side of a quickie-mart or big green bus with the SMG let alone take a shot at an alien ... Surely if they are in the "heavy" class they should at least be big and strong enough to hold the gun steady and get close to the target when firing? But 99% of the time they miss with the SMG and about 50% of the time you get the 'watch out, shots wide" when firing the rocket!

[Anbar]

Yeah I tend toa gree: a lot of decisions make sense and, upon play-testing, pan out sensibly

 

A lot of "this class is good" is down to play style.. when you see the 2k forums with side-by-side threads one with "SNipers are USELESS!" and the other "SNipers are OVERPOWERED!" then its usually a pretty good sign that the balance is somewhere close to bieng right. ¬_¬

 

 

edit: My current bugbear is how easy the game gets strategically after the start which is... usually, the most fun as it is the most challenging.

 

I dont want to make the start easier as the entire game can then suffer from fatal annui.

 

------------------

 

f.ex some guys have modded classic with unlimited ammo weapons "Because they are lasers why do they need ammuntion?"

 

OK. Good example of where "reality" has no place in game-balancing.... you just removed the ENTIRE dynamic of "when do i reload?!!!".

 

There then follows "I know, lets double amunition isntead!"

 

Well, guess what - there is a Foundry condition that already does that... so if you double ammunition at the start, you just quadrupled it by late game and, once again, you have fubar'd the balance/challenge.

 

OK, i've some advantage, worked in the industry, dev and press, and own a gaming company (table-top) and help other companies design games....

So i have experienced a LOT of isntances where "it should work like that" or "Its cool" completely undermines the challenge in a game, for no other reason than self-edification or a desire to "it works like that in reality".

 

In reality Craig Harrison shoots you from 2 miles away and you never even get to hear the shot... how is that a challenge?

 

The "Colonel Craig Harrison", reasonable (especially with raised XP), the Squaddie Craig Harrison - not.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Anbar

[Kaerar]

I'm going to add it into my mod changes and see how it goes in-game.

 

 

yarp, as originally suspected this re-arrangment of stats doesnt work well in-game.

 

It makes early game far to easy with "super-snipers" the main culprits.

 

If there is any point in the game where you need the help, it's early game :) still don't want 1 class dominating any aspect.

You're dead right with the overpowered snipers at the start. I actually went for a reduction of early stats (less uber snipers) and kept the inverse bell curve towards the end. So instead of having the Stock games 26 by Sgt level I actually have 23 for a Sniper. The massive 10 bonus at the start was removed (made things too simple for the sniper) and ended up like this:

Sniper: 5 4 4 3 3 5 6

 

You could switch it to 4 7 at the end for a more meaningful Col jump. The overall reduction is 10 skill points removed from the sniper tree (they get scopes anyway) as well as buffing sniper rifles Offense amount to counter the loss a bit. 5 points of offense on the starting Sniper Rifle, 10 on the Laser and 0 on Plasma, certainly make things more interesting ;)

 

Also did minor redistributions for Support and Assault but kept the same number of Aim bonuses overall, with a buff of 5 to the Heavy's similar to Daemonjax. Certainly made things more interesting combined with changes to pistols etc...

[Daemonjax]

The massive 10 bonus at the start was removed (made things too simple for the sniper) and ended up like this:

Sniper: 5 4 4 3 3 5 6

 

But then you end up with a Sniper that is not any better of a shot than Assault or Support at the squaddie rank. I dunno, I think a 10 point reduction is kinda extreme.... maybe a 5 point reduction is warranted, but I'm not convinced of that yet. :D

 

Snipers do receive one less hitpoint than the others, and get a relatively useless perk at squaddie.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Daemonjax