Modding the Random Number Generation

[Ichthyic]

I just read a thread about the RNG of the Random Number Generator and it's a pretty strange beast to say the least. However it looks to be working pretty well and very randomly. Only problem I see is that a global seed is used, whereas if it used seeds for the individual entities ingame it would give just as random yet more consistent results.

 

Ah well the power of hindsight ;)

 

yes, this is a psuedo-random generator, in that it uses sequential seeds to generate hit/miss numbers.

 

How you can tell:

 

say your solider has a 70% chance of a hit, fires and misses. If you reload, that same shot will ALWAYS miss. this is the seed part. the sequential part comes from the fact you can generate a NEW seed for that shot if you do something different with another solider BEFORE your 70% solider takes his shot. So, for example, you shoot at the alien with another soldier that only has a 10% chance to hit. That solider will miss (because it's using the same seed as the 70% soldier would have been). Now you have CHANGED the random seed for the next action. Now try firing with the 70% soldier, and you're likely to get a hit. Still no hit? do something else with a 3rd soldier and change the seed again. even tossing a smoke bomb will do.

 

seriously, I've tested this thoroughly, and it works all the time. it's also not an uncommon way to generate "randomness", as a lot of other games I have played utilize a similar system. if you play ironman, obviously you cannot exploit the RNG this way.

 

To prove how easy it is to exploit the RNG in this game, I'm playing classic, first time through, am fighting berserkers at this point, and have had exactly ZERO casualties for the whole game, and nobody has even been in the hospital since the 1st month.

 

Oddly, this makes the game EXACTLY what the OP said they wanted: a chess match.

 

the chess part comes in figuring out the order of moves to get everyone doing pretty much exactly what you want. :P

Edited October 18, 2012 by Sir_Toejam

[BlackAlpha]

That's how I scum saved my way through my first encounter with a shot down very large UFO. It was the first very large UFO I encountered and I was still under the impression that all UFO missions were a cake walk, so I sent in my best 4 rookies. What followed was a painstakingly long 1 and a half hour scum saving session. This is also how I figured out that when you have more than 100 savegame files, the save/load menus will freak out and will have problems showing you the savegame data. So I manually deleted old savegames, so that I could continue scum saving. It was so frustrating, but at the end I won without as much as a scratch. I'm a pro scum saver now.

 

Needless to say, never going to do that ever again.

Edited October 18, 2012 by BlackAlpha

[Kaerar]

I play Ironman mostly to get rid of the scum saving. But the RNG does cause an issue due to there being only a single seed. For another game I mod we use multiple seeds to prevent that exact problem.

[Ichthyic]

This is also how I figured out that when you have more than 100 savegame files, the save/load menus will freak out

 

Needless to say, never going to do that ever again.

 

lol. yeah, i was warned early on that there is a bug in the savegame system once you make it around 100 saves (happened to me at 96).

 

I just rar the old savegames so I can go back to them if I need to, then delete them from the directory. I just keep the last dozen or so saves. makes me think I should just set up auto-archiving on the savegame directory and save me the trouble.

[syke247]

I don't think the OP random number generator fix actually applies any interesting math to the random numbers. 11d10 would create a distribution range of 11-110, minus 10 would pull it back to 1-100 - I'm pretty sure that just rolling dice more times doesn't create a more averaged distribution. But I could be wrong here, basic level math only really. I am a programmer however :)

 

What about instead: (RAND() + RAND()) / 2. Or 3 times and divide by 3, or however much you want to pull it towards the center of the 1-100 range. I think 2 times would have a rather large impact for selected scripts, if the UDK scripts can be modified like that (I'm not knowledgeable about it).

 

Good suggestion otherwise. Reminds me of Sid Meier's story when he was focus-testing a Civ game, he found out that people would get pissed whenever their 10 attack vs. 1 def would lose, so to fix he implemented automatic win for large attack/def differences. It's only fair really.

[BlackAlpha]

Good suggestion otherwise. Reminds me of Sid Meier's story when he was focus-testing a Civ game, he found out that people would get pissed whenever their 10 attack vs. 1 def would lose, so to fix he implemented automatic win for large attack/def differences. It's only fair really.

 

I thought about something similar for this game. A hit probability above 90% should always hit. Usually, you get such a probability when it seems almost impossible for you to miss, like when shooting at point blank range. By making such attacks more reliable, tactics can be devised around them. Right now, this isn't possible because it's very risky and will usually get your guys killed because they will often miss point blank attacks. This is because you don't often get 100% hit probabilities, even when standing close to the enemy. An alternative, is to make attacks within one or two squares of an enemy always hit (assuming you've flanked the enemy or he's out of cover).

Edited October 18, 2012 by BlackAlpha

[Kaerar]

Gotta remember that the Aliens have unfair cheat buffs in Classic and Impossible modes.

 

They severely negate the RNG's ability to work correctly as the player would see it, primarily due to the aliens almost always having over 100% CTH.

[KMA]

Actually you get 100% quite frequently if you are playing properly. Snipers, or Assault troops with enough levels and laser weapons (or better) will get them.

 

As for gaming the non-random 'so people cannot save scum' was one of the first things I think we all figured out. What a stupid system. It now reliably allows you to farm the necessary percentage. I use it whenever an enemy-glitch* is going to cause a critical or allow them to shoot through a wall (or other solid structure). Just save, shoot at them with a high probability 80% plus and if you miss, then reload and end the turn. They are stuck with that miss, and then you can take them out easily.

 

*had a floater disappear unless I had a unit in the perfect square to see them. It could still shoot my other units, and the dumbest thing about the error was that the floater was not clipping through part of the ship. It was in 'empty' space.

[Daemonjax]

I'm pretty sure that just rolling dice more times doesn't create a more averaged distribution. But I could be wrong here, basic level math only really. I am a programmer however

 

Hehe... yeah, you'd be wrong. But don't worry... if you haven't taken any math courses in the last decade, you're forgiven. ;)

 

The sum of rolling multiple dice creates something closer to a normal distribution around the average as you add more and more dice.

 

If you can visualize one die as a straight horizontal line, 2 die is a pyramid, and 3 begins to look more like a hill, then the picture should become more clear.

 

Also, If you ever played AD&D tabletop, you should remember that rolling an 18 on 3d6 happened way less than rolling a 20 on a d20 for the same reason.

 

But, you really wouldn't want a normal distribution around the average of a d100 die roll in this game... unless your chance to hit or be hit was always 50%. The floating target number is complicates matters, which is the to-hit roll in AD&D is just 1d20 and not 2d10.

 

So, while I think what the OP wants is doable in theory, it's not a simple matter of rolling more dice.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Daemonjax

[Koshea69]

Right,

 

it's far more common to roll a 7 on 2d6 than a 2 or a 12. There are lots of combinations of numbers on each dice that come up with 7 (6 combinations) while only 2 1's or 2 6's come up with 2 or 12.

 

Basically, I want to see a system where having a 70 means a really good chance, and a 30 is a really bad chance. The current random numbers make it about bringing as many shots to bear as quickly as possible even if they aren't high percentage and be reasonably well protected if I make the right choices for cover. In this kind of game, getting that assault soldier around to flank is quite possibly the only way to succeed. Alternatively the FLUSH ability might become more useful than RAPID SHOT, or at least make it a tough choice.

 

Basically, I'm former Military Intelligence and want to play this as a much more tactical by the numbers kind of game instead of a fly by the seat of your pants and hope those shots connect kind of game.