Guild Wars

[Inquart]

That was one of their goals. HOWEVER the Cyrodiil thieves guild still had fences to sell stolen items, and the guild still payed you in gold for your efforts. They were STILL thieves. They still STOLE items which didn't belong to them. You don't have an argument.

 

Plus the fact that the Guild was looking after the poor wasn't just an act of selfess altruism; the poor acted as Guild's eyes and ears, so when the City Watch under Captain Hieronymus Lex swooped down to the Waterfront to collect taxes from them - and they were usually free from paying taxes, if I remember everything correctly - and thus rather considerably weaken the Grey Fox, also provoking or challenging him, the Guild acted in only way possible - by simply thwarting City Watch Captain's plan.

 

Again, they attacked because the Blackwood company was doing a better job then them.

 

It was, but only because those Blackwood mercenaries were bloodthirsty, ruthless and completely unprincipled butchers, additionaly drugged to the point where they didn't know friend from foe or some innocent villagers from a group of goblins. That's hardly sporting.

 

The battle with Ancanno, was just him standing there throwing spells while draining energy from a glowing ball. Nothing fantastic. Meeting Nocturnal, no more impressive than meeting any other NPC. In fact I was much more impressed meeting Meridia that any other daedra in Skyrim. The battle through Ysgramor's tomb was no different from clearing out any other ghost infested tomb complete with generic ghost dialogue "You cannot defeat the dead blarg!". The murder of the emperor was laughably anti-climactic

 

Meanwhile, in Oblivion the player had to face an ancient evil not just some Thalmor ambassador. In Oblivion's Fighters Guild the player had to face an enemy that knew no scruples, a sharp contrast from the Fighters Guild. In Oblivion's Thieves Guild we had to carry out the greatest heist possible. In Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood, you're unwittingly used to weaken the guild in an attempt for a certain traitor to kill the Night Mother herself. Again, there are far more characters in Oblivion's quest lines as opposed to Skyrim's, plus better written dialogue.

 

Agreed about Ancano (I expected a lot more from him), though clearing out Ysgramor's Tomb - while indeed no different than clearing out any other tomb - was rather climatic, to me at least, even if I again expected more from the ghosts of Ysgramor's legendary 500 Companions. The Emperor's murder also wasn't that bad (I loved his reaction to his own death standing before him - if only everyone were so calm and stoic in their final moments).

 

Born as an illegitimate heir, forced by circumstance to claim his father's throne for the sake of saving his homeland from the wrath of a terrible evil. Yes it isn't the most original story. Yes it's a story we've likely all read in a book or seen in a movie dozens of times. That doesn't mean the story is poor, nor the character lacks depth. Martin had a classical character arc.

 

One thing that is unarguably wrong about Martin is that after his death, the Empire quickly went to sh*t. ;)

 

-Who is baurus again?

The last surviving member of the Blades escorting the Emperor from the City through the catacombs. He blamed himself for the Emperor's death.

 

Sympathetic fellow indeed.

[StayFrosty05]

Well my question was about Guilds/College in Skyrim only.... :tongue: ....but the debate here has become quite interesting.

 

My contribution:

 

1/ Guilds/College in Skyrim:

 

Mages College:....I don't play Mages, so it never made sense to join....it irritates the hell out of me the the Main Quest tries to push the enlistment and Dawnguard reinforcing that push....I play a Nord (doesn't trust magic) and use a mod that removes his beginner spells altogether and am hoping to eventually remove his magika bar....would be more immersive for me personally....My only issue with the Mages Guild is Bethesda's push to join, but at least they left a back door open....bypass College, straight to Daedric quest.

 

Dark Brotherhood....I just can't play evil.... :ohdear: ...when I try I end up hating my character and deleting them....so have never joined the DB....I do LOVE being able to destroy them though...a wonderful Skyrim addition.... :dance:

 

Companions....I used to join them religiously liking the opportunity to become a Werewolf until I found a mod that lets me start the game out as a Werewolf...and so now bypass the Companions also, I do miss Kodlak though, he had a lot of potential, is a real shame it was left untouched.

 

Thieves Guild....Played it through one time....didn't like it....their just thieving thugs, no more to them....I didn't enjoy intimidating and extorting shop keepers, setting people up, etc....Which is a shame because I became quite fond of Brynjolf, I liked him.

 

Bards College....A non event I know, I just join them anyway as I play a silver tongued Dovah....It's a shame they don't come with a story line.

 

And so aside from the non event Bards College, I no longer join any Guilds....I know in regards to the Companions, aside from the fact that they really are no more than revered thugs (still can't work out what's honorable about them)....the story line is too short and feels like it's just something you do to fill in game play time....I would LOVE something more from Kodlak, more story with him....he is a very lost opportunity....could have been interesting.

2/Comparisons between Skyrim and Oblivions Guilds:

 

I have not played Morrowind so can't include that....I do feel the back ground stories for the Fighters Guild (Companions) and Mages Guild (College) are much better in Skyrim....but the execution of the story and length were far superior in Oblivion.....The Thieves Guild I feel Oblivion took the award for best execution, length and back ground story, also has what I consider the BEST end quest out of both games....I LOVE Oblivions TG final quest....As for the Dark Brotherhood, I only played it through once in Oblivion and never in Skyrim, the whole time in Oblivion I was trying to find the hoped for moment of being able to wipe them out or turn them in and was very disappointed that it didn't exist.....was with great joy I discovered I could finally wipe them out in Skyrim.... :dance:

[WatchMeGoing]

These are my opinions on the guilds. Includes spoilers, proceed with caution.

 

The College is a failure. Others have stated the reason already:

The only spells you need are the basic ward and frostbite to focus the crystal. You don't even need a spell to cross the bridge. If you go to the college for the main quest, they'll let you in if you demonstrate a shout. The wall in Saarthal can be broken by a shout, and so can the frost and fire walls in Labyrinthian.

You don't have to be a master wizard to become Archmage. You don't even have to be a wizard at all. In fact, it's easier when you're not a wizard, since your magicka is completely drained several times in the Labyrinthian, but that is no problem for a savage orc with two axes.

 

The Companions kinda have the same issue. You can easily play through it as a wizard. You only need to use a weapon when Vilkas wants to test your skill in the yard.

One tiny thing that really annoys me, is a particular line from Vilkas when you sign up. "I''ve never even heard of this outsider". He'll say that no matter how famous you have already become in Skyrim. Always makes me cringe.

 

The Thieves Guild have the same issue, but to it's less obvious. You don't have to be stealthy at all. Most places you break into are guarded by NPCs that aren't protected by the law. The only exception I can think of right now is Calcemo's Museum, but that place is filled with Dwemer traps that you can use to get rid of the guards.

The only part of the Thieves Guild that feels right, is the part of actually becoming the Guild leader and renovating the hide out through the process of doing a lot of odd jobs for Delvin and Vex.

 

The Dark Brotherhood is pretty much the only guild where you actually have to do what you're supposed to be doing in that guild. Too bad I didn't like any of the NPCs from the DB. Astrid's betrayal was very satisfying, as it confirmed my belief that she was a c...-ahem- that she was not a nice person and because of it most of those other NPCs were killed too.

Destroying the DB was a nice idea, but executed very poorly. They should've made it a questline the same length as the actual DB questline.

 

And I would've liked to see questlines to destroy the other guilds aswell.

Destroy the College - Led by the Jarl of Winterhold

Destroy the Companions - Led by the Silver Hand

Destroy the Thieves Guild - Led by Mjoll the Lioness

 

All in all, I thought the guilds were a dissapointment compared to what could have been.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Plus the fact that the Guild was looking after the poor wasn't just an act of selfess altruism; the poor acted as Guild's eyes and ears, so when the City Watch under Captain Hieronymus Lex swooped down to the Waterfront to collect taxes from them - and they were usually free from paying taxes, if I remember everything correctly - and thus rather considerably weaken the Grey Fox, also provoking or challenging him, the Guild acted in only way possible - by simply thwarting City Watch Captain's plan.

Which is in itself a entirely flawed idea.

 

A good Thieves Guild would have people, like Maven, Endon, Erikur, Olfrid Battle-Born, and Torsten Cruel-Sea, with wealth and connections to people in high places, and thus would get information far in advance and could bail out guild members in trouble, to be their eyes and ears. Poor people don't know jack, and wouldn't have access to any real information. The entire "poor people are my eyes and ears" it just another part of the cliche, overused, and highly nonsensical Robin Hood trope, and only points out further the lack of logic in Oblivion's plots.

It was, but only because those Blackwood mercenaries were bloodthirsty, ruthless and completely unprincipled butchers, additionaly drugged to the point where they didn't know friend from foe or some innocent villagers from a group of goblins. That's hardly sporting.

They are a guild of MERCENARIES, mercs don't care about being "sporting" that's something some dumb knightly order would do, not a guild for mercs. Now, if this plotline was used in a Knightly Order guild, it would be fine, but this is the fighters guild, a mercenary group.

The battle with Ancanno, was just him standing there throwing spells while draining energy from a glowing ball. Nothing fantastic. Meeting Nocturnal, no more impressive than meeting any other NPC. In fact I was much more impressed meeting Meridia that any other daedra in Skyrim. The battle through Ysgramor's tomb was no different from clearing out any other ghost infested tomb complete with generic ghost dialogue "You cannot defeat the dead blarg!". The murder of the emperor was laughably anti-climactic

 

Meanwhile, in Oblivion the player had to face an ancient evil not just some Thalmor ambassador. In Oblivion's Fighters Guild the player had to face an enemy that knew no scruples, a sharp contrast from the Fighters Guild. In Oblivion's Thieves Guild we had to carry out the greatest heist possible. In Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood, you're unwittingly used to weaken the guild in an attempt for a certain traitor to kill the Night Mother herself. Again, there are far more characters in Oblivion's quest lines as opposed to Skyrim's, plus better written dialogue.

The Battle with Manimarco was just his standing there giving a speech, that you can interrupt by killing him in one hit, and even if you do wait for it to be over, he just stand there and throws weak spells at you. Ancanno at least did some damage, and had temporary plot immunity via the Eye of Magnus, so you cant kill him before your supposed to. Ancanno was a genuinely more powerful, and more dangerous foe then Manimarco ever was, in terms of real damage, and on top of that, Ancanno had a plan, the Eye of Magnus could be used to unmake the world. Ancanno is probably the closest a Elder Scrolls badgy ever got to actually winning. Manimarco on the other hand could have been beaten by anyone, not to mention Manimarco shouldn't actually be on Nirn at all,m and if he was he shouldn't be killable because he is a god.

 

The murder of The Emperor was a great scene, out of all the people you killed in both Oblivion and Skyrim, The Emperor was the only one who had balls, he knew his fate, and accepted it, and you know what? he made me feel bad for killing him, unlike everyone else you kill, the emperor is and was the only time in any elder scrolls game I felt genuinely bad for killing, because he was the only one who had any personality in both Oblivion and Skyrim.

 

The Blackwood company in Oblivion was a a group of mercs, who had he exact same lack of morals as any other merc you kill in the game, The Blackwood company was literally every other bandit you had ever killed ever, they lacked real distinction. The ghosts in Ysgramor's tomb however, while looking like other ghosts, at least had some interesting background, and fighting them felt like "wow I am such a badass because I am wiping the floor with the ghosts of the 500 companions, the same guys who drove an entire species to near extinction, unlike Oblivion which was "I am killing mercs who have the same morals/backstory as any other bandit I kill in the game".

 

The Thieves Guild heist in Oblivion sucked, because it had no payoff, it as "steal the greatest artifact ever" "give it up" "go home", the Oblivion thieves guild had zero payoff for all of your actions, Skyrim's on the other hand at least gives you the Nightengale armor, and three special powers that are actually fun to use.

 

Also, having more characters isn't always a good thing, and if you REALLY think Oblivion had better dialog, you are wearing some MASSIVE rose tinted glasses.

Born as an illegitimate heir, forced by circumstance to claim his father's throne for the sake of saving his homeland from the wrath of a terrible evil. Yes it isn't the most original story. Yes it's a story we've likely all read in a book or seen in a movie dozens of times. That doesn't mean the story is poor, nor the character lacks depth. Martin had a classical character arc.

Actually it does, being the same as every other character to such an extreme level does mean he has no depth. Martin had no identity, nothing to make him stand out from the rest of the classical character who had similar stories, he was, and is, generic cardboard cut out. Esbern has more legitimate personality then Martin did, because he has real flaws, which makes him actually relatable. Martin was unrelatable because he had no flaws.

The last surviving member of the Blades escorting the Emperor from the City through the catacombs. He blamed himself for the Emperor's death.

Yeah, still not remembering him that well, but then again, I tried to blank out most of the blades after their terrible showing in Oblivion.

 

The only blade I remember is Jauffre, and only because of how much I wanted to kill him.

Edited October 28, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[Inquart]

Which is in itself a entirely flawed idea.

 

A good Thieves Guild would have people, like Maven, Endon, Erikur, Olfrid Battle-Born, and Torsten Cruel-Sea, with wealth and connections to people in high places, and thus would get information far in advance and could bail out guild members in trouble, to be their eyes and ears. Poor people don't know jack, and wouldn't have access to any real information. The entire "poor people are my eyes and ears" it just another part of the cliche, overused, and highly nonsensical Robin Hood trope, and only points out further the lack of logic in Oblivion's plots.

 

Fair point. Then again, all those beggars can do something others would be suspicious doing - sit all day on the street and observe. Such thing must be somehow useful to the Guild.

 

They are a guild of MERCENARIES, mercs don't care about being "sporting" that's something some dumb knightly order would do, not a guild for mercs. Now, if this plotline was used in a Knightly Order guild, it would be fine, but this is the fighters guild, a mercenary group.

 

I would agree with you on that if not for one thing - the fact that Blackwood mercs were carrying their contracts while under the corrupting influence of that Argonian drug. Being merciless and ruthless willingly, because you want to, is one thing; being drugged to the point of slaughtering entire village full of innocent people while seeing them as some goblins is something entirely different and something wrong. Blackwood Company was not an ordinary mercenary guild like any other in Tamriel, it was rather an army of mindless drones.

 

The murder of The Emperor was a great scene, out of all the people you killed in both Oblivion and Skyrim, The Emperor was the only one who had balls, he knew his fate, and accepted it, and you know what? he made me feel bad for killing him, unlike everyone else you kill, the emperor is and was the only time in any elder scrolls game I felt genuinely bad for killing, because he was the only one who had any personality in both Oblivion and Skyrim.

 

Not sure about him being the only one with any personality in both games, but I have to agree about the rest. The Emperor faced his death with rare class and peace and I also felt bad after killing him, even though he seemed like he wanted to die; because of that guilt, I always honor the Emperor's last wish without any hesitation.

 

Yeah, still not remembering him that well, but then again, I tried to blank out most of the blades after their terrible showing in Oblivion.

 

And the Blades in Skyrim were better than those in Oblivion, in your opinion? I hope not.

[WatchMeGoing]

Everybody is praising the emperor, but I cannot help but think he's a fool.

 

He knew you were coming, but made no attempt to change anything about his faith. (For example by having a squad of imperial archers ready to fire at the door you come through.)

 

It might be "cool" to accept your inevitable death, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to postpone it as long as possible. Isn't that what we're all doing anyway? Isn't that what life is all about? Delaying death.

 

The emperor just gave up on life. Not the kind of man that should be a leader.

[Stemin]

Everybody is praising the emperor, but I cannot help but think he's a fool.

 

He knew you were coming, but made no attempt to change anything about his faith. (For example by having a squad of imperial archers ready to fire at the door you come through.)

 

It might be "cool" to accept your inevitable death, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to postpone it as long as possible. Isn't that what we're all doing anyway? Isn't that what life is all about? Delaying death.

 

The emperor just gave up on life. Not the kind of man that should be a leader.

 

I didn't get the impression he knew you were coming, I got the impression he just knew that at some point, someone was going to take a shot at him. He wasn't surprised and he accepted that you already beat his defenses. I mean you were able to enter a ship in the middle of the harbor undetected and then presumably either sneak or battle passed all of his elite guard, so there would have been nothing in it for him except humiliation if he were to try anything against you so he accepted his fate.

 

This place is getting pretty predictable. Another Brandy post another pot shot at consoles. Another s9000 post another argument. Glad the ignore list exists.

 

I don't see issues with the Mage's guild the way everyone else does. Everyone complains on here about being locked into a certain path, and here they give you an option and you guys are complaining that you don't have to use enough magic. The Archmage position is a position of leadership and being representative of the guild. The day to day is clearly handled by the Master Wizard, which is pointed out a bunch of times by Mirabelle and later Tolfdir who specifically has the dialogue option to ask "if there's anything I should be aware of?".

 

You can choose to study magic, or not, but the bottom line is, you saved the world, saved the guild, and dealt a huge blow to the Thalmor as well as being somewhat prophesied to do these things according to the Psijic Order. By the end of the quest line, you may not be the best at magic, but you definitely earned your position. I also found the mage's questline to have some of the better areas in the game... the midden, the labyrinth, even sarthal, as well as being the kicker to the Gauldur Amulet quest, and a pointer to Black Reach.

 

I have a bigger issue with the town of Winterhold itself.

 

I thought the guild quests were by far and away the best in Skyrim, even if they weren't incredibly long, with the exception of the Bard's guild, which is by far and away the dumbest concept for an adventurer class I can think of off the top of my head and barely deserved the few quests it got.

[Inquart]

Everybody is praising the emperor, but I cannot help but think he's a fool.

 

He knew you were coming, but made no attempt to change anything about his faith. (For example by having a squad of imperial archers ready to fire at the door you come through.)

 

It might be "cool" to accept your inevitable death, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to postpone it as long as possible. Isn't that what we're all doing anyway? Isn't that what life is all about? Delaying death.

 

The emperor just gave up on life. Not the kind of man that should be a leader.

 

Well, he sent out a decoy to be poisoned, suspecting correctly that after his cousin Vittoria died at her own wedding, he might be next, so one may say that he tried (once at least) to postpone his death. But honestly, I think the Emperor somehow wanted to die - after all, he'd signed probably the most humiliating peace treaty ever (albeit after a great victory over the Dominion) and was indirectly responsible not only for the White-Gold Concordat itself, but also for all its consequences - and that's why he faced his death with such class and grace.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Not sure about him being the only one with any personality in both games, but I have to agree about the rest. The Emperor faced his death with rare class and peace and I also felt bad after killing him, even though he seemed like he wanted to die; because of that guilt, I always honor the Emperor's last wish without any hesitation.

I realize I wasn't detailed enough in my comment, I meant he was the only mark, i.e. a person you were sent to kill, that had a deep personality, not that he was the only character that had personality at all.

 

And the Blades in Skyrim were better than those in Oblivion, in your opinion? I hope not.

And yes, I do find The Blades in Skyrim to be vastly superior to the Oblivion ones, for mostly the same reasons I find Skyrim's guilds to be better.

 

The Oblivion Blades were literally the most white knight of all the white knights in the game, the Oblivion Blades were the epitome of everything wrong with the game that was Oblivion. They lacked depth, personality, character flaws of a major nature, and had a black/white view of justice.

 

The Skyrim Blades had REAL personality traits, with REAL character flaws, and a non-black/white view on morality and justice. They didn't do w/e the Dovahkiin said like some lapdog, and actually stuck to the Blades ideals and purpose, which is hunting dragons, rather then just give up hunting Dragons if the Dovahkiin chose not to kill parthy as the Oblivion blades would have done.

 

The Oblivion blades were everything that Talos himself said was wrong about The Empire in Morrowind, they were OLD.

 

Esbern's speech:

That is a character having character, something Jauffre, and the rest of the blades, lacked.

Well, he sent out a decoy to be poisoned, suspecting correctly that after his cousin Vittoria died at her own wedding, he might be next, so one may say that he tried (once at least) to postpone his death. But honestly, I think the Emperor somehow wanted to die - after all, he'd signed probably the most humiliating peace treaty ever (albeit after a great victory over the Dominion) and was indirectly responsible not only for the White-Gold Concordat itself, but also for all its consequences - and that's why he faced his death with such class and grace.

I believe the decoy was sent because of Maro, not The Emperors will itself.

Edited October 28, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[Inquart]

I realize I wasn't detailed enough in my comment, I meant he was the only mark, i.e. a person you were sent to kill, that had a deep personality, not that he was the only character that had personality at all.

 

Okay, now we understand eachother on that matter. And I have to agree with you.

 

And yes, I do find The Blades in Skyrim to be vastly superior to the Oblivion ones, for mostly the same reasons I find Skyrim's guilds to be better.

 

The Oblivion Blades were literally the most white knight of all the white knights in the game, the Oblivion Blades were the epitome of everything wrong with the game that was Oblivion. They lacked depth, personality, character flaws of a major nature, and had a black/white view of justice.

 

The Skyrim Blades had REAL personality traits, with REAL character flaws, and a non-black/white view on morality and justice. They didn't do w/e the Dovahkiin said like some lapdog, and actually stuck to the Blades ideals and purpose, which is hunting dragons, rather then just give up hunting Dragons if the Dovahkiin chose not to kill parthy as the Oblivion blades would have done.

 

Agreed about Skyrim Blades being more...well, human. However, I don't mean to start another discussion about the Blades' role and relations with Dragonborn, but hunting Dragons was rather something their predecessors - Akaviri Dragonguard - did; the Blades were supposed to protect and serve the Dragonborn, be it current Septim Emperor or our hero from Skyrim. If our Dovahkiin gives them an order, they are supposed to obey it, thus fulfilling their role - serving the Dragonborn. At least that's the way I see it ;)

 

I believe the decoy was sent because of Maro, not The Emperors will itself.

 

That's possible, too.