The Evolving Society Mod

[RandomArt]

Extension on the advisor idea, you should be able to choose between several different types of advisors, a warrior, a mage, a farmer, an upper class man, a commoner, or any other number of NPC or player classes. This choice in advisors could affect future events in the city and obviously the advice from each one would be different.

[grmblf]

Hi there! I really like the idea of this mod, it opens a lot of possibilities. I'm quite new here but I want to contribute to this project with the best I can do by now related to oblivion modding: giving ideas for storyline, quests and dialogs. So here it goes:

 

 

General Gameplay:

First off, by creating a new world you're given the chance to choose how do you want your world's gonna look like, what's going to happen in there, and what kind of actions and decisions should the player take or perform to inffluence that world. Quests from vanilla game are quite simple IMO, most of them are linear, out of context and they appear to you regardless who you are or what you've done. I'm def in favor of a RPG style of quests with multiple dialogs and choices, where the decisions and actions you've made directly or indirectly inffluence on the course of events. If you want to make it a bit more complex and immersive I can help you making algorithms and tree maps for complex dialogs and quests structures and also help with ideas for some quests to roleplay.

 

I know that's a huge challenge, but an empty and closed world is the place to do so as you have the freedom to place everyone and everything where you need them without risk of interfering with other mods or quests. The price to pay is high (high amount of time) but the reward is a new world with reallistic NPC and immersive stories, all fully re-playable several times on several different ways. Maybe you should think about that kind of matters before ending the technical stuff, as it will probably have a bigger effect on the way your mod is played rather than how the scripts place the buildings. Anyway it's just an opinion and I'm aware you're checking out technical matters and haven't started yet writing the story and that, it's just a suggestion for when you start the 'writing' work.

 

 

Storyline:

I like the idea of a classic middle-age new land conquer by steps. The first one could be to recon the land, resources, inhabitants, etc. Second, send a few men to build a settlement: a chappel, a quarter and a house for few farmers and workers. Third sending more men to finally build up a proper city, and fourth, from there starting the conquest of the whole island to turn it into another province of the Empire. That's the way it was done from centuries before the christian era until the modern era and it seems to fit well wnough the lore by giving the imperials a new land to expand their empire. Also making it an imperial mission makes easier to justify the huge amount of people and resources flowing from cities to the colony if things are properly done.

 

My suggestion is to start once step 2 is finished, so it allows for some characters to be already established in the island to give a little background story but all stills quite disordered and undone so the player may take part in the development of the city, county and finally the province.

 

 

Beginning: joining the mission

Emperor Uriel Septim would have orderer some years ago an expeditionary force to recon the island, settle a camp and return with news and goods, but they never came back, so on the last days of the Emperor he ordered to send more men to check out what happened and help them, and then is when the player may join the expedition. It would be very nice to have some different options to join the mission, for example, being recruited on Anvil docks as a militia soldier, as an imperial soldier (comanding the militia) only if the player is a mid/high rank in the fighters guild or imperial legion, as a healer or battlemage sent by the mages guild, as advisor of a nobleman if you have completed a quest for a count, etc. A simple check may change the disposition of NPCs and unlock topics that lead to unique quests or the same quests with different approaches.

 

 

Beginning: once there

Once there the player could find that these people had to fight fiercy against some kind of beast or thing to establish themselves there, and that in fact they did send back their own ship to tell the news and ask for help but they had no answer in all this years (who knows what happened to that ship), so now they are reluctant to cooperate with you as they feel they've been abandoned and they no longer support the imperial cause. This may lead to conflict with some fanatic worshipper of the Nine travelling with the player or some Legion soldier very proud to serve the Empire. At this point, either if you opt for a RPG style or the standard quest system, it would be nice to have the chance -and even the obligation- to choose wich side are you on, if you're there for the glory of the Empire regardless the necessary sacrifices or maybe you would try first and foremost to survive in that strange land, and then, if possible, honor the Empire, or even if you take a neutral role and mix up with the workers and soldiers and let the leaders fight each others, or if you plan to slowly grow in reputation so one day you could claim that land for yourself.

 

By forcing the player to stay in a divided and wary community it creates the necessary tension to make him fear for his live without having to put in there tons of beasts and monsters, it's just a matter of who you trust and who you betray, and who trusts you and who betrays you. That's why IMO 'neutral' paths should be carefully selected and avoided when possible, otherwise it may give the feeling of impunity one has when playing vanilla oblivion.

 

Another great point of this strategy of confrontation is that is not as easy as killing monsters, because if you kill'em all you may find that you lack of workers or soldiers and so the building process is being delayed to a point that you'd probably be dismissed by the Council and employed as militia or given some other 'punishment', so you have to use diplomacy and try to keep things quiet. That's also a perfect excuse to gain reputation both in the island and in the metropolis, so even if you started as a militia soldier you may end being the highest authority.

 

 

Leading the Community:

After a few days, once the people of the island has reconciled with the newcomers, or whatever kind of peace they achieve, it may start the work to build a city. Depending on how well ended the matter for the player he may be given some role or some other. To make it simple I'd make player being the advisor of the chief in command (only if the player has taken part in favor of the winner side), or making the dirty jobs (if he positioned himself against thoose who won), or making the job he was called for (if the neutral solution succeed).

 

 

Evolving Society: resources

I'd be logical the first thing they'd do is to settle the necessary things to start gathering resources. It means at least wood, stone and iron. Making it 3 diferent places means 3 differents quests where you have to go and clear up the area as soldier or go to work there. To collect metal and stone you could add a rock or metal vein with a script attached to it, executed onActivation, wich waits 2 seconds while performing an animation and then adds a brick to the player's inventory. When the player cannot carry more bricks he has to make his way to the next place they're gonna build up something and leave the bricks into a crater and back to the mine, and when he has carried 1.000 bricks in a day or more he's free to go for the rest of the day. The same for metal and wood.

 

 

Evolving Society: buildings

At this stage the workers may start building the city. Depending on who's leading the process their priority may change, so maybe the newcomers will try to build up first the chappel on top of a hill while the others, knowing the dangers of the island would prefear to build first a defensive position, while the rich 'neutral' nobleman will try to make they build a big manor for him first. To avoid having multiple AI tasks packages for each NPC depending on who's leading, an easy solution would be to make they build the buildings in a pre-set positions in strict order, so let's say the first building would be on top of a nearby hill, the second down near the forest, etc, and make it so the first one is the better placement and the last the less good one, so it could reflect the priority of the one in charge. This way, regardless of who's the boss, the workers will go to the same place in order, the only thing that would change would be the resulting building. If OBSE fully supports lists, tracking wich ones has already been build shouldn't be a problem so no building is made twice if the leader changes during the process.

 

 

Well, that's all for today. I hope I've given you a glimpse of what I have in mind for this mod. Let me know if you share a bit this point of view and want to start the writting work, I'll be happy to contribute.

[andy12750]

Mabye Ocato calls you to the council chambers and tells you a new island was found just off the coast of Hammerfell, and he thought you would be the best choice to take a small party of colonist in a ship there. When you arrive, you can either A. Build a settlement right there or B. Move farther inland to build your settlement. Building it right there would allow you to get more seeds and equipment faster, but moving inland allows you to build bigger buildings. Plus, each one will affect your village later on. Next, you must get food while your people set up a small camp. there could be wild corn and strawberrys all over plus a few wild animals, each with 'Meat' in there inventorys for those of you carnivores. After you get say, 30 berries or meat, you return to the settlement where a camp is set up. for the next few days the colonists will build cottages and small buildings. in this time, you cant leave the island. after the first couple of buildings are finished, and everyones got a roof over their heads, a nord who speaks very bad english comes to your town. He demands food for his village and you can either A. give him all your food and collect more B. Kill the messenger meaning the other village will send raiding partys, which will reduce your buildings to burned remains or C. hold him captive and go ask Ocato for some Imperial Legion aid. If your buildings are burned, your colonists will rebuild and youll still have to go to the IC and ask for aid. When the legionarres arrive, you can either order them to raid an enemy village or stay home and defend. You are officialy named Colony Leader and live in a Rosethorn- Style manor. Now you have a few side quest to develop the village. a new merchant has moved here and asks for help starting his buisness. he needs help building his buisness and then gathering the needed resources. you can either A. deny him a building, and he'll leave, holding back your buisness development by quite a while or B. agree to help him and ask your towns head builder to begin work on the inn styled market building. while their building he will make a small stand and give you a list of things to bring to him. by the time you bring him his things he has moved into his building and opened his doors. Next side quest, start a mining operation in a newly found gold mine filled with leveled beasts. you can, ofcourse, deny this requests, meaning your buildings will stay in the stone age. The mine will stay abandoned never another chance. but if you DO decide to clear the mine, go inside, either with or without armed miners. after you finish taking the beasties out the miners will begin developing the mine. Now go get some picaxes and shovels and bring them back and thus the mining begins. combined with this next side quest, your buildings will be developed to either log cabins or stone buildings. the next side quest is finding suitable ground for farming. there will be several flat areas all over the island, pick one to start with. lead a farmer and some builders there and theyll start on the construction. now you need to get some hoes and a type of seed. this seed will be very important as this will become all of your farms main crop. you get them and the farmer begins his farming. later on youll help expand or destroy both of these industries. Now, while your towns developing, you get to focus on some more urgent matters. The raids are becoming more frequent, and you need a better more reliable defense then the Imperial Legion. Or you could keep the legionarres, but that would not work well because Ocato has ordered them back for several reasons. So you must either A. order your builders to build a Barrcks, which will cost your towns treasury quite a bit or B. Hire some mercenarys from a nearby trade town on another island. Each one will have its Cons and Pros. For building a Barracks: Pros: More loyal soldiers, better looking armor. Cons: More expensive to train, get half of the profits from every raid. For hiring Mercanaries you get Pros: A little cheaper, only take a quarter of the profits from a raid. Cons: Leather-Iron armor, very gruff and ugly, sometimes lazy. Either way, they all serve the same purpose. You can tell them defend, take a break (meaning theyll bring back more from later raids, youll just have to wait a while before they can go for another raid) or go raid, which means youl have more resources (to make it a little bit more realistic, you could have a chest labeled 'food' and a box labled 'Gold' for your city. every time there is a raid, both boxes will have more resources). After you build your barracks/ hire some mercanarys the Legion Soldiers will all leave. Now, its time for some more city development quests. As gold becomes harder to get, the colony needs a new way to get revenue. Its called Taxes. But before you can adjust taxes, you need a secretry/steward. Not an advisor, as suggested earlier, but more of a steward who you can talk to to adjust taxes, he may give some quests, and even make war arrangements/organize peace talks later on. Now, this is something i didnt mention earlier because i forgot, but perhaps we could have all regular citizens/peasants in the middle of the town waiting to be assigned to a job. For example, you could speak with one and say either 'Miner' 'Militia' (Militia would just be weaer versions of the soldiers, as you get soldiers from asking the commander in the Barracks) or 'Farmer'. Or in special oppitunities like these, you could tell one of them 'Steward'. After you have your steward, speak to him and pick 'Adjust Taxes' and you can change them to 100 gold a day (the higher the taxes, the less you get from your workers at the end of the day) 50 gold a day, 25 gold a day, 10 gold a day, or finaly, no tax, meaning theyll bring in a normal amount of resources every day. Now you get the next 'War' quest. Your Commander reports that the constant Offense/Defense of these raids are taking their toll on the men. Your steward reports their also taking a toll on the treasury. Both suggest a meeting with the leader of the rival tribe/village to make a temporary Cease fire, or mabye even peace. You can deny this, but this will result in the loss of soldiers and less gold per day. You then go with two of your soldier/mercanaies and your steward to the rival village. When you arrive, youll find a SUPER small town with some burnt remnants and a few cottages. The town leader comes to you and begin talking to you. He'll say something thats basically like "We rock, you suck" Youll have the choice to threaten him, meaning he'll stop the conversation and him and all of his men will attack you. (Even if you escape the attacks continue) Youll also be able to praise him, bringing peace. Or atleast a cease fire. Or you could agree to become his 'Vassal' Meaning you give him a few of every resource every day. If you become a Vassal, the Imperial Legion will come in and free you. He'll give you aminute to decide and ask your stward, whos goes for the cease fire. Once the fighting ceases/continues youll either begin a sidequest or youll begin a sidequest+more raids. But dont worry. Ultimately youll wipe them out.The newest sidequest is titled 'Religion'. A preist/bishop/reverand has moved into town and decided this place needs some religion. How about you help him build his place of worship. Or you could tell him 'I worship Sithis' and he'll buzz off. But, most Medieval places had chapels so we need one. Your citizens will begin building the chapel if you tell them too. Thats another thing. every time you build a building you can assign your people to build that specific building. ANYWAYS help him build the chapel, he'll move in, and soon a couple healers will move in. Youll need to get some specific spells to enchant the altar with a deity of your choice (IE pray at the altar of julianos in skingrad, get the Julianos Altar Enchanter spell, cast it on the colonys altar and vioola your islands protected by the powers of julianos.) Now, onto one of the final 'War' campaingns. Speak to your Steward or Commander and theyll tell you this peace is getting shakey. If youve already been at war with no peace, theyll say its time to 'Finish This'. They say its time for a major campaign to conquer their village. If you deny, the raids will start again/continue, but youll always have the choice to reverse this and send your men in. Anyways, build up your military strength (You now have the choice to build a barracks again AND hire mercanarys, so you could have a mixed force. Either way tell your commander an he'll send the men out. After they've camped out near your enemy, talk to your commander and he'll ask you a few questions. Question 1: Do you want to lead the charge? Or do you want him to? (Leading the charge is geared towards stronger characters who want to see the battle.) Question 2: How should they attack? Surround the village on all sides and move in (You would only have this choice if you have a force of 20+) Flank them (Move in from two sides, only available for a force of 10+) or lastly, charge them right on (For forces of 5+, hopefully your not forced to do that) Depending on the size of your army and your own level, youll probably win. If you dont youll have to rebuild your army while suffering from HUGE raids. Then you can try again. Anyways, once you conquer the town you can either choose to raze it or take it over. Later there could be a course of quests where you rebuild this town and help it thrive. thats all for now! bye!

[QQuix]

RandomArt, I guess that when I mentioned 'medieval', I meant the final 'feel' of the town and people, not necessarily the architecture style. I am no modeler, so I am planning on using mostly vanilla meshes. I have not looked into the esp you mentioned, but from the pictures, it seems it will fit nicely on the first stages of the colony. Thanks.

 

Kamoba & RandomArt, the main (pratical) problem with advisors is that, for them to give good advice, the script behind them must be rather complex. Pretty much the same difficulty I foresee with a plan I have for one or more of the initial settlers becoming the player's best friend(s) and right arm(s), so he/she/them could run things when the player is elsewhere. Anyway, the suggestion (and variations) is registered.

 

grmblf, programming in general and, for the time being, scripting Oblivion is my hobby. My motivation is the challenge of doing things (with scripts) that are at or beyond the edges of the game capabilities. This is why I started this project of growing a city from zero. I am working only on the technical (script) side until I am certain that this mod is possible at all. There are still many potential issues open.

A second reason is that I have absolutely no talent for creating and writing stories, plots and the like. Also, I still cannot ask anybody to do any continuous work on the story side (or any other aspect of the mod) until I am sure the mod is technically feasible. This is why I started this thread in the first place, so you guys could add/build up ideas in a volunteer basis while I work on the technical stuff.

 

Another aspect of it is that, being a hobby of mine, I take my time doing the pieces, building blocks and occasional sideway scripts, so I can enjoy every moment of it. Therefore, as opposed to most things in real life, there is no deadline for any part or for the whole.

 

Anyway, this entire preamble is to thank you both, grmblf and andy12750, for the contributions.

I appreciated those and would appreciate additional ideas/elaborations whenever you may feel like writing them down.

 

As always, I feel bad for not commenting the details of the ideas presented, but, as I already said many times, I like them all and it is too early to start the selection process.

[Slawter500]

@ Both:

I am pretty much working on building blocks that will be put together at the end.

 

So far I already have: (off the top of my head):

- A general 'development' engine (that needs to be recoded)

- A building positioning engine

- A building selection engine (50% done)

- A moving ship engine

- I am working on a kind of AI for the NPC population. (33% done)

 

Entirely possible its still active andy

[andy12750]

ok good. glad its still active as i really like this idea.

 

EDIT- Hello??? Is any one out there??? did anyone like my earlier ideas?

[andy12750]

hmmm im fresh out of ideas.

[QQuix]

EDIT- Hello??? Is any one out there??? did anyone like my earlier ideas?

Hi, andy.

 

I guess I already mentioned that I did like your ideas. Quite elaborated and aligned with the general idea of the mod.

 

A couple of concepts were added to the "Possibilities" list (meaning they may or may not be included in the main engine):

A rival village - I am planning on some pirates from some unnamed, undetermined nearby island raiding the colony every so often. Not sure how difficult it would be to 'materialize' their home. Not even sure if I will materialize the pirates themselves. Maybe they only raid when the player is not looking and you only see the damage afterwards.

Taxes - I am still not sure whether there will be any currency in the colony. I am pretty much decided not to use the vanilla currency so the initial player's wealth would not affect the evolution of the colony. A local currency, when the colony starts getting some sophistication is a possibility.

 

And a few minor details don't match the way the engine is being built, e.g. I am planning on food/farming being the very first resource/activity and the major factor on the population growth.

 

Most everything else is pretty much aligned with the way the engine is being build and may be used when the time comes to decide on the storyline and side quests.

 

Thanks again.

[QQuix]

I've been working on things leading this mod almost every day and I suppose I could call this phase a milestone.

 

So . . . progress report time:

 

WHAT WE ALREADY HAVE

Three very important 'building blocks' completed and ready:

 

1. NPC ACE - A system to have total control of the NPCs in the island. They may interact, if necessary, and they will keep working (and producing) even if not loaded. Besides, the system will allow for many secondary, but cool, possibilities, like guards dynamically choosing their armor.

 

2. The Construction System - the 'mechanics' for creating, replacing and removing buildings is ready. With this system, the player can build her city from ground up, starting with a few, cheap houses to a thriving city as big as she can afford with available resources. It will be possible to add walls to the city, trees to the parks and sidewalks and lights to the streets. The system is in Beta test and will be released as a separate mod soon.

 

3. The Island - I accepted the offer to use the island created by the 'NPC with Jobs' team. It is a most beautiful island that has all we could wish. Still pending authorization to do small adjustments to the landscape, if this proves necessary for some reason along the development.

 

 

NEXT STEPS:

1. The Production System - definition of the raw materials, the superior materials that can be created by combining them and their use to create new buildings. There was a production system in the prototype, but OBSE has evolved so much since, that I plan to start from scratch. And this system will also depend on. . .

 

2. The Lore - There are A LOT of ideas and suggestions proposed in the three mod forums. I, now, plan to classify/merge/organize them all and present a summary of choices to be discussed in the forums. So, if you still have some idea or suggestion to present, this is the time.

 

3. Further down the road:

- 3a. The relationship of Buildings-NPCs-Productivity (as in which buildings will make which NPCs happier and more productive and which NPCs less satisfied with the player's administration)

- 3b. Look for a team to put everything together.

 

MAJOR CONCERNS

 

I have the solution for the LOD problem: the city will be visible from anywhere. This is out of the way, now.

 

So the major problem left is how to make NPCs go from one place to another without bumping into buildings the player has placed in their way. Luckily, scruggsy is willing to look for a way to add functionalities to OBSE to dynamically change the pathgrid. If this fails for any reason, I either (1) have to create code to mimic the engine path finding (very complex and time consuming) or (2) pre-determine the city and villages locations and restrict the player to place buildings only in predefined 'lots' (which is against the very concept of the mod)

 

A minor concern, for which I don't expect a solution and we will have to live with, is the land texture. If you place your city where the land is green, the streets will stay green.

 

And, of course, the big question: what size of mainframe we will need for playing this mod, when everything is running at the same time. LOL.

 

 

Ok, then . . . as Don Quixote used to sing: ". . . And the wild winds of fortune will carry me onward, whithersoever they blow. . . "

 

[This same text has been posted in the three mod forums: Bethesda Softworks Forums - TES Nexus Forums - The Wormhole Forums ]

[Argomirr]

You never cease to amaze me, QQuix.

 

I have been looking forward to this since day one, regularly checking the topics to see if any progress had been made, and every time I do, I see you have achieved yet another revolutionary thing.

 

Excellent work, keep it up! ;)