The Evolving Society Mod

[QQuix]

Thanks. Your ideas / suggestions make sense and are certainly usable, but . . . (there is always a ‘but’, is there not?)

 

We have to match them with the main focus of the project (the way you put it, it pretty much fits the objective of the late “NPCs with Jobs” team project)

 

Most of what you say will be [kind of] implicit in the first version, rather than explicitly depicted with proper animations.

 

The general idea is that a small group of four castaways grows to a thriving community of dozens of citizens, a large city and 3 supporting villages.

 

The drives/motivation to move from the first scenario to the second are, first, the obvious need to survive and, second, the desire to live better / improve their way of living.

 

For this they need food and resources. They do have what they need, at first, but they want to improve.

Problem is: to improve, they need more resources. To get more resources, they need more people, to get more people, they need more food. To get more food they need more resources. And so on in a never ending circle.

 

The main ‘game’ of this mod is the player managing this spiraling up, so there is food and resources at the right time to build the right premises to the right people.

Succeed, and the community stays happy and prosperous.

Fail, and unhappy people leave and the community goes down the drain.

(hence, the renaming to “VOX POPULI”, as is the voice (happiness) of the people that drives the mod)

 

Since the main focus is in the high level management of the resources, micro-management will not be detailed. Although I have thought of introducing them, as optional, in later versions.

Using your suggestions for crop rotation as example:

Version 1 – farmer grows food and production increases by adding more land.

Version 2 – new knowledge (e.g. the player finds a book on crop rotation) improves productivity and farmer produces more food with the same land.

Version 3 – a micro-management mini-game where the player decides what to plant next, trying to optimize crop rotation.

 

Same thing goes for detailed animations. In the first version, the woodsman goes to the woods in the morning, back home in the evening and X new units of wood are added to the community warehouse. It does not matter (animation-wise) if he spend the day wandering in the woods or visually shopping trees. The player must have better thing to do than watching the NPCs work.

 

Btw, detailing and depicting the actual activities of the NPCs was one of the objectives of the aforementioned “NPC with Jobs” mod. They developed all sorts of nice visuals and animations: apple trees, milk buckets, fishing poles, etc.

We may (and will) get there in later versions. Let ‘s consider the first version as the cake, V2 as the proverbial icing on the cake and V3 as the proverbial cherry on the icing on the cake.

 

Nevertheless, your remarks are interesting and, even if not explicitly implemented at first, may be used as background explanation.

One thing you mention that may help me decide to do differently is the stone guy. I always felt uncomfortable about having stone at the beginning, but never thought it thoroughly. Maybe it is better going with just 3 survivors and hire a stoneworker later. I will have to review the mod engine, as the stone cycle is already built in (I am planning to review the whole production cycle and resources requirements anyway).

 

Before going further, let me comment on a couple of things you said:

 

(1) - Previous, abandoned colony

Yes, this is required for technical reason: I don’t have ways of repainting the ground on the fly, so, if, for example, we want paved roads and worn paths in the woods at the end of the game, they have to be there at the start. So the explanation for them being there is a previous civilization.

 

(2) - “I finally found the Vox Populi forum”

There are 3 mod forums Bethesda Softworks Forums - TES Nexus Forums - The Wormhole Forums ]

I follow all three, so I will read and replay to whatever one you choose to use. This Nexus one is the most active, anyway.

 

(3) - Force the layout of the original site

Here I have a serious dilemma as I have two opposing approaches

 

(A) - Use the original city buildings (all disabled) and enable them as the facilities are added to the game

PRO – The pathgrid is set. Easy to implement the NPC AI.

CON – Just one building visual. Worst case example: either the initial chapel will look like a cathedral or the final cathedral will look like a chapel.

 

(B) - Completely dynamic city layout

PRO – Each player will build as he likes it (this is a whole game by itself for the city building/architecture-inclined players)

CON – Although I have solved most of the dynamically adjusting the pathgrid, I am not confortable that some player will not have problems way down the road (like NPCs bumping their heads all over the city)

 

As of now, I am going with the easier path (first option) in order to release the Alpha version ASAP.

There is a middle compromise that I am considering: original locations with dynamic meshes (which has its own pros and cons).

But in the end, I guess I will have the second approach as an option (mostly because this dynamicity was a major part of my initial vision for this mod and I would hate to drop it)

 

 

 

Let me take the opportunity and write down a few words on the basics (it will help me review, and maybe rethink, things)

 

 

GENERAL EVOLUTION

 

The 3 (2?) outcasts that survive with the player specialize in producing the 3 (2?) things that they need to start their new life: food, wood and stone (?).

As they take care of the basics and start the first village in the arrival area, the player goes exploring in order to get rid of the dangerous wildlife around and find better areas for extracting resources and fertile areas to grow crops.

 

As the player finds these areas, the NPCs move there and bring their products to the village.

 

Later on, as the population grows, two things happen sort of in parallel: (1) the original NPS, in their new locations, get more people to help them, so they start their own specialized villages and (2) the initial village, being the center of the stage, grows to become a city.

 

At this point, using the wood cycle as example, the woodsman village sends logs to the central city, where a sawmill has been set to turn these logs into planks, which are required to improve the existing log buildings.

 

Even later on (maybe not in the first version), the sawmill moves to the woodsman village to get closer to its raw material and sends the planks to the city, where newly established industries turn the processed planks into other goods (e.g. furniture)

 

The above ‘dynamics’ were present from the beginning and, coincidently or not, the island the NPC-with-Jobs team gave me, has exactly a larger city and 3 smaller villages, one in a wood area, one surrounded by farms and one in a rocky area (good for both quarries and mines).

 

 

FOOD

 

“Food” is generic, whether it comes from crops, fish or meat (both wildlife and domesticated).

Each person needs X units of food per day to survive. Let’s say 1 unit per person per day.

So, the initial group needs 3-4 units per day. One of them is made responsible for providing it.

 

Initially, collecting/hunting will provide the food they need.

 

Latter, the food guy settles in the fertile land the player found and cleared, sets a small farm and start growing ‘food’.

 

In order to produce more food for the growing population, the food village needs one or more of three things: (1) resources to upgrade existing farm(s) by expanding their cultivated area, (2) new farmers to start new farms or (3) knowledge/technology to improve the productivity of the existing farms.

 

It will be the player’s decision that will define which way to go: allocate resources to the farmer (rather than to other businesses) or get more people or go after knowledge/technology.

 

In future versions, I am planning on a fish cycle, as the naval industry develops (it will have to, in order to get the player back to Cyrodill, right?)). Maybe pole-fishing >> fishing boats >> fish farms.

 

 

RESOURCES AND FACILITIES

 

As resources I stayed with Wood, Stone and Metal. (no clay cycle)

These raw materials will be transformed into other materials and then into two kinds of finished products: (1) materials required to build/improve existing buildings (e.g. fancy doors and windows) and (2) optional ‘luxury’ resources (e.g. furniture)

 

Wood: logs >> planks >> finished products [doors,windows] + [furniture]

Stone: stone blocks >> bricks >> finished products [marble?] + [?]

Metal: ore >> ingots >> finished products [nails, hinges] + [many]

 

For each transformation there is a corresponding facility that must be created (e.g. Logging camp, sawmill, wood industries)

You need a certain quantity of each resource to create the initial facility. Initial facilities are quite simple and may be created using the basic resources.

 

Facilities may be upgraded to produce more of their products.

 

You need a certain quantity of each resource to upgrade a facility. The higher the level, the more specialized are the requirements.

For example, you can create a sawmill level 1 with logs, but you will need more varied and processed resources to upgrade it to level 2 and above. Up to the point that you must create a whole metal cycle to be able to upgrade your sawmill to the top, most productive levels.

 

Upgraded facilities multiply the production, as they can process more raw material per day, but with the same productivity. For example, a Sawmill level 1 can turn 10 units of logs into 10 units of planks per day. Upgrading it to level 2 allows it to process 20 units of logs into 20 units of planks. Same 1-to-1 relation, thou.

 

Additional experience/knowledge/technology adds to productivity. For example, with a better saw, a level 1 Sawmill may produce 13 units of plank with the same 10 units of logs.

These improvements in productivity will happen as the workers get experienced with their trade, but may be rushed by the player finding/providing some new knowledge/technology.

 

Happiness of the worker also plays a major role in production. Unhappy workers arrive late at the job, get lazy and the facility does not produce as much as it should.

 

There may be up to four of each extraction facility (logging sites, quarries and mines) but only one of each processing facilities (sawmill, foundry, etc)

 

 

HOUSING

 

Each citizen needs a house.

Initially they improvise tents, then build some simple shacks using logs. Same thing goes for additional people that join the group over time.

As each citizen works hard for the good of the community, he starts longing for better houses

Houses may be built and upgraded as any other facility, requiring more complex resources as their level go up.

 

 

OTHER BUILDINGS

 

The citizens not only want better houses and work facilities, but will, eventually, want other kinds of services to the community.

At the moment, I have the following facilities (and the corresponding upgrades)

 

Lodging: Boarding House >> Inn >> Hotel

Religion: Chapel >> Church >> Cathedral

Health: Healer >> Apothecary >> Hospital

Security: Barracks >> Armory >> Arsenal

 

I also plan on some unmanned facilities like sewers and walls and a few beautification like street lights and statues.

 

One thing I am planning to do soon is some re engineering to make it easier to add new service facilities, as I am sure you guys will suggest when the mod is released.

 

[EDIT] Typos

Edited June 1, 2014 by QQuix

[MarkInMKUK]

Re the chapel / church / cathedral

 

In the "real world", buildings such as churches are substantially modified over time, and sometimes relocate. Frequently, the basic chapel is a small structure, but designed in such a way that additional architecture can be "bolted on" (sometimes literally) to make a bigger structure.

 

Let's suppose we start with a timber frame building.

 

First stage is a basic small square barn-type structure, consisting of two end walls, a "frame" half-way between the end walls to help support the roof, two side walls and a roof - just imagine a typical mid-western barn-raising to get the idea. The "back" wall has the entryway, the "front" wall is where the altar would sit.

 

To expand the basic structure, an identical end-wall is constructed and placed parallel to the first "back" wall, complete with a new entry door. Side walls are created. The roof is extended to cover the new area. THEN the existing original "end" wall is "unfilled", leaving just the timber framework, and then most of THAT timber is removed leaving just the outer frame and the roof trusses, which is then identical to the original buildings "frame"

 

Repeat this process until you have a building with several "bays", and you have the evolution of a typical frame-built chapel. The original square section building would, at some point, be likely to be extended upwards into a tower by adding a second floor, usually with a bell and/or clock.

 

Now, in Christian tradition, the chapel would then be expanded into a cross shape, by adding one-bay apses to either side of the square original building, and a new altar position by extending the alter-end by one bay.

 

So, so far you have a modular expansion of an original building, with minimal remodelling needed - just a range of logical stages.

 

But then you get to stone, and a "better" chapel. At this point you seriously consider the needs of your population. They still need someplace to worship while the new chapel is built, and you are not likely to re-use the old timbers. What often happens is a second site, or a second area of the first site, is developed into a stone-built church (and in some cases, pre-existing cellars are re-used - there are several churches where the cellar structures predate the church by decades or longer - maybe the church crypt could accidentally be attached to an existing unknown Ayleid complex?). Stone foundations are put in, and a similar design strategy is used - bay-type construction allowing a modular build. Often the church is then widened by the addition of aisles on one or both sides of the existing main church body, constructed in such a way that they are finished and THEN the wall between is removed (sometimes partially, creating attached-but-separate small chapels). Because of the weight of the roof and tower structure, buttressing had to be used to give the typical English church look. The old timber building, once the congregation moved, might be retained as a church hall.

 

Cathedral? That's a major project, and VERY seldom related to an existing church site. Normally a wealthy landowner would donate the land "as a ticket to heaven", and fund some or all of the construction, often a 50-100 year project. Or sometimes a monastery/abbey church would achieve cathedral-like status. Again, no need to take an existing plot - in fact the original church may stay operative as well, or fall into disuse and be torn down as building material - recycling that nice stone.

Edited June 1, 2014 by MarkInMKUK

[MarkInMKUK]

Another thought on farming/fertility ... a fresh water source such as a river would be useful. Rivers tend to flood seasonally, helping to fertilise the soil. There are mods which allow "higher" water table effects to make raised lakes, etc - I don't know how well these could be adjusted by scripts to mimic flooding and receding waters seasonally. Of course, if nobody spotted the evidence of seasonal flooding, some of the population could find they were living in the middle of a lake in the spring :smile:. A dam, and proper water management, would deal with that - but only once the colony was properly established.

Edited June 1, 2014 by MarkInMKUK

[QQuix]

As for the chapel-church-cathedral – for the initial versions, I must use just vanilla meshes, so either (1) I enable a preexisting mesh, even if it does not visually match exactly what it should be or (2) the player chooses the mesh and it is his responsibility (if you build a cathedral and chose a barn mesh or you build a barn and choose a palace mesh, it is up to you)

I considered this trio because they exist in the game: the Weynon Priory chapel and the two cathedrals used in the cities.

Why vanilla? Because I spent many, many months measuring each and all vanilla buildings (width, depth, height and ground level). Besides measuring, I mapped every single item in every single interior of all vanilla interiors. It was very hard work and I have no motivation to do any of this ever again. If I had to do it to one more mesh, I would probably quit.

 

As for the farming, it will be exactly as you say.

The picture below shows part of the area the player will find fitted to place the farms

The lake to the right will be there, but the canals to the left will be initially dry. When the community develops the technology to control the water flow, they will be able to flood the canals and get a boost on productivity (yes, it is possible to control the water level with scripts)

Btw, the rectangular area on the left is where the village will be (you may notice that you can see that the streets from the previous inhabitants are still there).

 

 

[MarkInMKUK]

Re the Chapel - I think the Weynon Priory chapel would be the largest that the mod is likely to require - the cathedral sized ones would probably be overkill. I do need to learn 3D modding, and maybe a kit-form chapel building would be within my capability once I learn - I don't know til I try.

 

One thing I hadn't considered is the number of services needed, and who would officiate? With nine divines, that implies either some very generically ecumenical services, or nine priests and nine separate events per week. I must admit I haven't looked into what happens at the moment in the city, let alone in the smaller chapels, etc. Or will the chapel be dedicated to just one of the nine, and individual households have their own "family shrines" set up?

Edited June 1, 2014 by MarkInMKUK

[QQuix]

About the Chapel x Cathedral - I don't agree with you. All vanilla cities have cathedrals. The main city will become as big as (or larger than) them and should afford the same size church. For the villages, yes. A chapel is more than enough.

 

For the moment, i am not going into the details of what happens in the church. Just the fact there is a church in town will make the citizens happy. Later we may refine things the way you say:

One god : player will have to decide if the God is A (which makes the farmer happier) or B (which satisfies the mason)

Multiple gods : several priests (which consumes more food)

Edited June 2, 2014 by QQuix

[Legotrash]

QQuix,I had to post and say that it's really amazing you keep going unfazed. I wish you the best!

[QQuix]

Thanks. Being my hobby, it is not that amazing.

As I already mentioned elsewhere, I love every minute of it.

And since my main objective is not the release of the mod, but rather the process of developing it, i take my time.

Edited June 6, 2014 by QQuix

[QQuix]

New year, new status report! . . . And happy new year to all !!

(as always, the same report here and in the BSG sister thread - The Wormhole site will be down soon, so no more updates there)

 

I did map some of the buildings to their use, but still have to map most of them. Not much progress here.

 

But I did improve the Intro. Now the player and NPCs can (and do) walk on the ship deck while the ship is moving and rocking.

 

Now I am kind of stuck on how to seam together the intro and the main mod. I did not like any of the ideas I had, so I am a little unmotivated and did not do much in the last few months.

 

In order to get some motivation back I needed a challenge, so, last week, I decided to work on the island transportation system (wagons and ships) for a while. Sort of adapting and merging in these two pieces I already had: Cart Away and Sail Away

 

I will keep you posted.

[QQuix]

Status report:

 

Found a realistic way of joining the Intro to the main mod.

 

Problem was that the main mod (kind of) required that each NPC that joined the group had a house: you could only accept a new member to the community if you had the resources to build him/her a (humble) house and give him/her a job.

 

But, at the end of the Intro, it would not make much sense to build houses on the first day after a shipwreck. So, I added to the VOX engine a new, initial level, where the joining NPCs can have just a bedroll to sleep at night. The player and the two outcasts that survived will find bedrolls among the ship things that came to shore and will start from there.

 

Now I have to have something for the player to do while the community builds up its resources and start to settle. Since the player is the only one with fighting experience, it makes sense that his/her initial task is to clean up the area from dangerous wildlife, thus protecting the party.

 

At the moment, I am working on a system to control spawning in such a way that, the more the player visits and kills beasts in a given area (cell), the less they will spawn.

 

The general idea is that, over time, as some areas (main city, villages and roads) become ‘civilized’ and secure, the spawning rate slows down, eventually stopping spawning there altogether.

 

Suggestions are welcome

 

(I am on vacation this month, so I will have time to move this mod ahead a little faster.)