Abused Iraqi prisoners

[Akrid]

News of abused Iraqi prisoners is whats flooding American TV right now. As a American I find it a untolerable kick in the ass. It sure makes it hard to defend the actions of my country when I find out about this. Now we have rapist murders to deal with on America's side and head chopping on the Iraqi's. Vietnam is about to take a back seat compared to this now. Though the actions of these few soldiers dosn't reflect what most Americans are like, it does seem to reflect the "kill everything" attitude that was in the vietnam war. I can understand to some extent if a kids start running up to soiders and exploding with body bombs, I'm going to start shooting kids that come too close. The problem is there was no reason behind the torture, rape, and in some cases murder by the US troops recently.

 

I understand that US soldiers have become very un-nerved recently, even before the war there has been cases of soldiers murdering their family's and then commiting suicide. The US military likes to pump it's active duty up with all kinds of drugs and vacines. I have recieved some minor side effects myself. I guess the price for superior performance on the battle field is starting to present itself. I'm not a soldier, or at least thats not my job, so I don't get all the shots they get. I've had some experimental shots in boot camp, but I'm sure those effects have worn off by now. You don't see the British military killing thier family's and abusing prisoners. I want to know what the hell is going on. I'm sure everyone here has plenty of opinions.

[Malchik]

What is there to say? I'm sure part of it is that individuals easily change character completely when they are part of a group and 'mass' behaviour takes over.

 

I would not be surprised if the request for attempted degredation of prisoners to make them compliant didn't come from a very high level. The same has been reported in Guantanamo Bay. So they start off doing as they are told without any training on boundaries. That might even be deliberate so those in charge could deny knowledge of detail (a standard procedure). But then they never expected anything to be said about it by their own side and the victims would be ignored if they complained. (On the basis that they were trying it on.)

 

The Geneva Convention does not suit the US but they do not want to flout it further as they are already in difficulty re Guantanamo Bay. Ah well, sins are always discovered eventually as your dear president should certainly believe!

 

As for European soldiers being less likely to kill their families. I can't believe they are under less stress. But of course our gun laws are much tighter.

[Shakkara]

I don't know exactly what is going on, but I have noticed some very strange things with two Americans who went into the army, and I've seen similar things in others which I didn't know as well as these two. Their personality seemed to change, and not for the better. I've met them both in Ultima Online, unfortunately I lost contact with both at least 6 months ago (the first one was 21 years old, I knew him for about a year and he refused to talk to me any longer, and the second one was 23 years old which I knew for a year and a half, and he is no longer online). Both of grew a macho-kind of personality, and the first one kept bragging about how he and fellow soldiers deserved respect, and that they sacrificed themselves for their country so that others wouldn't have to (yet the others would be indebted to him). Also he seemed to find pointless things such as soldiers hauling rocks from one place to another worthy of respect :blink:. The French/European opposition to war in Iraq he considered treason, because in his opinion Europe was indebted to the US for "saving" them from the Nazis. These things weren't there before he joined the military, he wasn't even very patriotic, that's why I started talking to him. In fact he didn't really have much of an opinion of himself, something the military apparantly took advantage of. He also started thinking very black-and-white, everyone with interests conflicting with the US should be subdued through force, and he used the them-or-us and might-makes-right arguments to justify that. These things also showed up in the thinking of the second individual, who already was in the Navy when I met him (the first one was in the regular army, I've got his company etc or whatever it's called written down somewhere though I doubt I could find it anytime soon), fortunately he didn't get the macho stuff as much as the first dude, but still he got some. He developed some twisted thoughts about when it would be justified to kill someone, and he also advocated thight state-control of it's citizens and had no problems letting innocents (foreigners but also his nation's own citizens) suffer for what he believed was the greater good, such as immediately shooting down passenger planes which would behave strangely, even if they were of no threat, just to deter terrorists, to give an example. While he already had some ultalitarian POVs when I first met him, they weren't like this at all.

[Akrid]

Shooting down our own planes to set a exsample for terrorist? That guy sounds completely %#$*ing stupid, he's navy alright :lol: I was in a position in bootcamp once where my division was abruptly awakend in the middle of our six hour night by MA's and officers. There was a blanket party (beating the guy who can't keep up) on the guy who's rack was right next to mine. They yelled and screamed and shrieked(sp?) at me about what I knew about it (I was never beaten, raped, or totured) I said "I heard pounding but I thought it was someone packing thier pillow (when you pound your pillow on the deck to make it more comfortable to sleep on), well about thirty people ended up getting taken away from the division, some who where only suspected where sent back to day one, while others where sent to see the old man. I was lucky. The moral of this story is, the US military will suspect people and hold people accountable for unacceptable behavior, somtimes to a extreame. I remember sombody on my ship got in trouble because he slapped sombody on the arm after they made E-4, it was considered hazzing. The US tend to bring so much justice that it becomes unjust.

 

I understand the change people go through, I get it all the time. A lot of the change is simply growing more mature, in more combatant rates it's a state of mind that is literaly brainwashed into the soldiers (the govement does not deny this either!). I don't think I sufferd too much brain washing in the navy, but I know one thing, when a civilian I lacked the nerve to shoot sombody, now it would not be a matter of nerve so much as it would be a matter of self control not to. I actually dream of combat, and yet I'm stationed on a ship right now. Perhaps it's all the video games, witch brings up another possible factor.

[MajKrAzAm]

Hear it from those that were actually there. I read through a few of them, and I am disgusted.

 

Sworn Statements by Abu Ghraib Detainees

 

These documents, obtained by The Washington Post, are the offical English translations of previously secret sworn statements by detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. Some of the names have been withheld from these statements because they are alleged victims of sexual assault. These files are in PDF format. Some of the descriptions in these statements may be disturbing because of their sexually explicit or graphic nature.

 

http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2636

 

The situation is bad enough without this kind of stuff happening. Of course it is most likely just a few guys giving their army a bad name, but it is damaging nonetheless.

 

It was Dostoyevsky who said "you can judge a society by its prisons." It is how Saddam was judged, and it is sadly now how many around the world will judge the U.S.

[Icefiddell]

About abused Iraqi soldiers yes i agree it's wrong and shouldn't happen but it has and it does. But i'm sorry but i have to say American or British soldiers never decapitated an innocent man infront of a live audience on the internet. Yes the abuse of prisoners is bad for the public eye but with time it can be fixed. I remember there was a few pictures that came out over here (the UK) showing British soldiers abusing prisoners, but they where disgarded as fakes, but any one could see that because all the soldiers in the photos had all of thier equipment which is almost for impossible for a soldier in the British Army lol.

And as for the 'Super Soldiers' lol (i like that), it happens i guess. An army doesn't want a soldier that thinks, they dont want men that have thier own views thet dont want individuals. What they want is for everyone to share thier views so that everyone thinks the same. Turn them into patriots, make them fight a little harder. by the sounds of it that guy you where talking about seemed really passionate about his views. Which is good for a soldier because passion also produces anger, which makes a man stronger and will mke them fight harder.

Dam i'm rambling on again but i'm sure the british Army 'TRIES' to do the same but i dont think thier is pretty much anything left to be patriotic and passionate about the UK any more. <_<

[Albareth]

Let me get this right... not a lot to be passionate about the UK... but there is about the US? Elaborate, if you please. I admit I can't see any reason in this point of yours.

 

As to the main issue of the topic - it is horrid but it's just what we see. Seriously, like was said here earlier, and is a very important point:

 

It was Dostoyevsky who said "you can judge a society by its prisons." It is how Saddam was judged, and it is sadly now how many around the world will judge the U.S.

 

The U.S. hasn't precisely been handling foreign prisoners in a first rate manner for a long, long time. Trying to say that it has is just plain pointless - whether or not you agree with that foreign prisoners SHOULD be treated like they have been at, for example Guinetemano (however it's spelled), it's still quite obvious that the U.S. shows little concern for trying to be a model nation in these issues.

 

There is a big difference between patriotism in your nation and what it's supposed to stand for, which every man should have, and a blind patriotism to it no matter what current administration is doing to it - or has been doing with it. The latter is a horrible thing, a tool used by goverments all around the world these days to control the masses.

 

Abusing and mistreating prisoners of war is a despicable act of cowardice, there's nothing brave about forcing a captured soldier to do despicable sexual act or depriving him of sleep for days at a time - or any other torture. It's human cowardice and malice at its worst - it's what got people like Saddam so hated by the Western world at first. It seems like people have become so involved in this patriotic crusade to change other nations they've stopped looking close enough at their own.

[Icefiddell]

I think you've got me wrong, i think it is totally unacceptable for prisoners of war to be treated like this. I mean if we do these things then what makes us any different from the Japanese in WW2 or even the Nazi's to a certain degree. But what i was saying is that these things happen no matter how 'civilised' or advanced a nation may be. War is war, true these things aren't true acts of war but still they happen. But still the people that did these acts should be punnished and the people at the top should try to prevent these kind of things happening in the future.

And as for patriotism, i am patriotic, i love my country. But i'm not blind i can still see the state that it's in and still see it's faults.

I'm not talking about a lot of people here but a very small percentage, especially people from the American army. Some Americans i have spoken to in the past have seemed to believe that they are patriotic and that thier country can do no wrong. As i said before this is a very small number of people and i'm sure people are like this in nearly every country. But i believe if you have men like this in a foriegn land that thier occupying then they may start to believe that they are better than others. And in fact just become big headed and blind to the world around them. Sorry i'm sure most of that doesn't make sense but hey, i just went on another of my senseless ramblings.

[cactoblasta]

The point is though that they don't happen in every war. As any WWII (Europe) ex-POW will tell you, the Germans were extremely good to their prisoners. Attempted escapes were not tolerated, but those that were willing to be imprisoned were treated well and, insofar as the country could afford, adequately fed and clothed. Whilst of course there were bad guards, the Nazis were also extremely efficient in dealing with poorly focused brutality (with punishment like the east front).

 

I believe the problem the US faces is that they didn't care about the abuse (even though they knew about it) until the media kicked up a stink.

 

As for the superiority complexes, that could be easily dealt with by actually teaching the troops what they're dealing with, rather than allowing them to think that the Arabs (which of course few Iraqis actually are) are fanatical animals without reason.

[Malchik]

the Arabs (which of course few Iraqis actually are)

I think you are getting confused with Iranians. They are not Arabs, they are not even Semitic, but Iraqis are.