Which one is "good", which one is "evil"?

[sajuukkhar9000]

The Redguard wouldn't back them up because of religious differances. They hate Lorkhan (Shor) almost as much as the elves, and have always had it out for the Nords because of his place in their pantheon.

 

But i digress, this isn't a "who would be better for Skyrim" discussion. Its about good and evil. Fact is, you can't even consider the Daedra evil if you go deep enough down the rabbit hole.

While it is true the Redguards are no friend of Lorkhan, The Thalmor see ALL mankind as the children of Lorkhan, and thusly wish to purge them all.

 

I doubt Ulfric is such an idiot as to not accept the help of the Redguards, and the Reguards warrior culture, and desire to get back at the AD, would open them up to the possibility of an alliance.

 

Also, most Redguards aren't super fanatical in their hatred of Shor, just like most Altmer aren't so "anti-man/destory the world", either.

 

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/nu-mantia-intercept

Gypsy Moth dustmemore insert - it should be noted here that it is always foolish to think of whole races sharing like minds. "Ayleid" is as much a metaphysical designation as it is a cultural one. Just like the earliest Chimer who orphaned themselves from the Velothi Exodites, but remain Chimer today, large numbers of Ayleids showed more interest in the immediate earthly needs of agriculture rather than the magical needs of concept-farming. This distinction becomes important later, when "Ayleid" begins to designate other, and ofttimes foreign, agencies.

Just replace Ayleid with any race's name.

Edited November 20, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[Riprock]

Say what you want about Ulfric, but whatever immediate or near immediate negative results come out of the Rebellion will have little impact on the long term benefits of a Rebel victory.

 

So you completely dismiss the fact that a rebel victory will leave Skyrim pretty much defenseless against the Thalmor oppression? You think the Dominion will just cut their losses in Skyrim and forget about the place?

 

 

That's an assumption. You fully assume that the Empire is the only thing holding the Dominion from over-running the place. Lots of players do. I don't see the good solid reasons for it. The premise revolves around the idea that the Dominion can't be beat, and that the Empire is the force that keeps them in check.

[Riprock]

Even if Skyrim wins and pushed out the Imperial army unless the Empire is so weakened that it can't respond or is unwilling to take it back then the Imperial Legions would be marching in force for Skyrim to crush the Nord rebellion once and for all with overwhelming force. If nothing else allowing Skyrim to break away from the Empire may encourage other proveinces to attempt do so as well. No doubt the Thalmor would want to go along for the ride with the Imperial Legions to ensure the destruction of all Talos shrines. The Emperor can't afford to appear weak in the face of the Aldmeri Dominion so Skyrim must be retaken from the rebels...but of course internal conflict in the Empire weakens it without the Aldmeri Dominion having to do anything. I get the impression its just a matter of time before the Aldmeri Dominion is ready for another invasion attempt to topple the Empire and if the Empire destroys itself from within the easier conquering it will be. I look at the Roman Empire as the basis for The Elder Scrolls Empire and one thing the romans did was conquer and Romanize the population...but they were also swift to put down revolts by the locals.

 

 

The Empire hasn't the strength to do that. If they did, they could march on the Dominion.

 

No player of the game seems to realize that if we are going to talk about what-ifs, then the bargaining table is not out of the question. The Empire doesn't have to conquer Skyrim at all. What if Mede declared Talos worhsip legal, rejected the WGC, announced he was embracing his Nord brothers and sisters, and called for arms against a common enemy? if he can 'crush' the rebellious province with the forces he commands, then why not? The Dominion is assumed to be invulnerable. Mede already displayed his cunning and generalship in war. There's no reason that the two factions- Empire and Skyrim- could not unite against a common foe

 

The Thlamor aren't as clever and unbeatable as they think. For example- they think Ulfric is in their pocket, and he's not. The situation in Skyrim shows the Empire is not in control of it's own Province, and Tullius' actions in handing over prisoners illustrates the Empire's subservient position

Edited November 20, 2012 by Riprock

[WatchMeGoing]

Say what you want about Ulfric, but whatever immediate or near immediate negative results come out of the Rebellion will have little impact on the long term benefits of a Rebel victory.

 

So you completely dismiss the fact that a rebel victory will leave Skyrim pretty much defenseless against the Thalmor oppression? You think the Dominion will just cut their losses in Skyrim and forget about the place?

 

 

That's an assumption. You fully assume that the Empire is the only thing holding the Dominion from over-running the place. Lots of players do. I don't see the good solid reasons for it. The premise revolves around the idea that the Dominion can't be beat, and that the Empire is the force that keeps them in check.

 

No solid reasons? Try simple reasoning.

 

The WHOLE imperial legion couldn't beat the Thalmor. What makes you think a couple of rebels from one province stand any chance against them?

[Riprock]

Say what you want about Ulfric, but whatever immediate or near immediate negative results come out of the Rebellion will have little impact on the long term benefits of a Rebel victory.

 

So you completely dismiss the fact that a rebel victory will leave Skyrim pretty much defenseless against the Thalmor oppression? You think the Dominion will just cut their losses in Skyrim and forget about the place?

 

 

That's an assumption. You fully assume that the Empire is the only thing holding the Dominion from over-running the place. Lots of players do. I don't see the good solid reasons for it. The premise revolves around the idea that the Dominion can't be beat, and that the Empire is the force that keeps them in check.

 

No solid reasons? Try simple reasoning.

 

The WHOLE imperial legion couldn't beat the Thalmor. What makes you think a couple of rebels from one province stand any chance against them?

 

 

Your reasoning is too simple, I'm afraid, lol. You are really over-simplifying

 

Firstly, they didn't fight "The Thalmor"

 

Secondly no, the WHOLE legion coudn't. In fact, the WHOLE Dominion and the WHOLE legion never clashed. It was various units, at various times. Like the Finns in the Winter War or the Americans at Bastogne, raw numbers don't mean much if you assume that numbers prevail. The legion suffered greatly from the position it found it self in strategically, because of the way the Dominion invaded. They didn't all meet in a big field and have their big fight. The key is to match your strong forces against the enemy's weak ones. You do him in the back, while he's not looking, when he has no chance. The Dominion played a much smarter strategic plan. But consider Mede's re-taking the Imperial City, and how reduced in strength the Legions were at the time

 

Third, you are seeing a few Stormcloaks in-game and basing your reactions as to their strength and numbers on that. The 'cities' are more like villages in this game. The displayed population is greatly underwhelming. You're 'gaming' that situation and making an assumption

 

I'd be willing to listen to good solid reasoning but what you're telling me is that since 'the legion' failed, nobody can beat the Dominion. Boiled down, that's your argument. Well that's just like, your opinion, man :)

Edited November 20, 2012 by Riprock

[Lachdonin]

I was afraid it would come down to this.. The simple fact is, we know too little about military numbers to make any kind of judgement. Regardless of the outcome in Skyrim, Stormcloak of Imperial, you are expressly told that the conflict will be ongoing. Meaning whatever you choose, you don't actually get to decide who wins.

 

We also know that the Imperial Legion is not particularly interested in having to deal with this 'little' rebellion. Tullius mentions that he would like a full legion of troops to deal with the problem, but they are all possitioned on the Domminions borders, so he has to recruit locally. This, of course, implies that while the Empire easially has the power to put Ulfric in the ground, they are more interested in bigger conflicts.

 

Now, Riprock, you seem to be downplaying the Battle of the Red Ring. It was a major pitched battled which saw both the Empire and Domminion commit the majority of their available forces. Both had left token military forces in Hammerfell with the purpose of missdirecting the enemy, while changing tact to concentrate their armies on Cyrodiil. In the end, the Empire won, completely wiping out the main bulk of the Domminion armies, but found its self unable to properly supply a war abroad, despite still having several legions worth of men. So, technicly, the Empire DID defeat the Domminion, thought the terms of the White Gold Concordant, as presented to us, certianly seem like a capitulation. There are nothing in those terms, however, which indicate what the Domminion had to sacrifice, and i've never heard of any treaty, even outright surrenders, which were that one sided...

 

But i digress, this has all be hashed out several times, and the 'Right' choice always seems clear to whoever is hapening to support a particular side. Unless someone has something new and monumentally insightful to add, we can safely drop it.

[imperistan]

Say what you want about Ulfric, but whatever immediate or near immediate negative results come out of the Rebellion will have little impact on the long term benefits of a Rebel victory.

 

So you completely dismiss the fact that a rebel victory will leave Skyrim pretty much defenseless against the Thalmor oppression? You think the Dominion will just cut their losses in Skyrim and forget about the place?

 

Yes because there's definitely something stopping them now. The Dominion already waltzed all over the Legion once and that was without an actual dedicated army going at the bulk of them, and that was in the all-too-close-to-Valenwood province of Cyrodiil (land of the flat plains and home of the direct highway to the capital) with the use of cloak and dagger, divide and conquer, and utter and terrible surprise. Skyrim under virtually any leadership would not fall to the same weaknesses that nearly destroyed Cyrodiil. Mountainous borders (which btw are absolute hell to pass for very large armies, which is what the Dominion would need to actually do anything significant to Skyrim, to actually trek through without a MASSIVE supply train and a nearly identical amount of escort forces), far and away from Dominion held space (meaning any invasion is going to be seen and well prepared for long before the invasion force arrives. Hell, Stormcloak victory already automatically means prepare for war in Skyrim yet again, so the Dominion would literally have to attack in the middle of the civil war to actually surprise the province, and as we see in the game, this doesn't happen), and chalk full of people who aren't going to get pushed over by a bunch of elves and also happen to be the fiercest fighters on the entire continent.

 

The Dominion trying to touch Skyrim would be like a lone, scrawny statesmen and a couple of goons pulled off the street trying to collect taxes from a bunch of Bandits. Sure they might kill a bandit or two, but eventually they'll just be slaughtered and hung up on a tree as a warning. And then their cart will get raided.

 

The Redguard wouldn't back them up because of religious differances

 

Not necessarily. The differences might be there, but it isn't the Redguards that are trying to undo reality. You also have to consider that the Redguards already got thrown under the bus by the Empire and had to fight the Dominion for years (and they stalemated them fairly quickly too. Within the same year that the Dominion ended the war with the Empire as well. Five years after that they both gave up and Hammerfel got to keep its lands) and sure enough it'll be the Dominions intention to try again.

 

After all, Hammerfel was the Dominion's original target anyway. The entire Great War was just a landgrab that turned into a virtual world war by a total fluke. So eventually even if Hammerfel doesn't ally itself with Skyrim from the beginning eventually it'll get drawn into the war against the Dominion (and honestly who cares if they decide to stick with Skyrim afterwards. I say its time the concept of the Empire is put to rest). You can't just sit and ignore the Dominion and hope it'll do the same. It isn't that kind of a nation. Eventually it will come after you.

 

Even if Skyrim wins and pushed out the Imperial army unless the Empire is so weakened that it can't respond or is unwilling to take it back then the Imperial Legions would be marching in force for Skyrim to crush the Nord rebellion once and for all with overwhelming force.

 

That they didn't do that in the first place says they can't. Skyrim and High Rock are the Empire's key provinces. Cyrodiil and Morrowind are too devastated even to this day, so virtually all of the Empire's economic resources are coming out of Skyrim and High Rock, the only two provinces who weren't either ravaged by war, natural disaster or some other issue.

 

If the Empire can't hold onto Skyrim, then they'll never be able to take it back. Ever. You can't take something back if you don't have the strength to hold onto it, otherwise, you never would have lost it. There's nothing that has the Empire's attention so much that they can't devote the true bulk of their forces to holding Skyrim when the province is of such importance.

 

That's an assumption. You fully assume that the Empire is the only thing holding the Dominion from over-running the place. Lots of players do. I don't see the good solid reasons for it. The premise revolves around the idea that the Dominion can't be beat, and that the Empire is the force that keeps them in check.

 

I think many just fall into the complacency of listening to and trusting an "authority", particularly if they've played the past games. You get so used to being in the service of the Empire (or at least working for its betterment) that when you're finally presented the option to work against you literally cannot rationalize bringing yourself to do it. And those that haven't played the past games are likely just trusting that the Empire is more or less right and then only looking to the big red flags coming from the Stormcloak side of the ocean (racism, etc etc) and then immediately denying that other option without looking too hard into it. After all, the virtual number one reason almost every Stormcloak opponent denies the rebellion is based around the racism and xenophobia they're first exposed to.

 

I'd be willing to listen to good solid reasoning but what you're telling me is that since 'the legion' failed,

 

THing is they didn't even fail. The Legion beat the Dominion into submission. (Hint hint: The entire Dominion army in Cyrodiil (IE the initial force to distract the Legion + the massive reinforcements sent in afterwards + whatever reinforcements came along after the Imperial City fell and was held by the Dominion for some time) was destroyed completely) The only signficant Dominion presence in the whole of the Empire after the War of the Red Ring was in Hammerfel, and even then, right around this time THAT army got stopped in the Desert and was slowly being pushed back into the south (and mind you was destined to be stalemated by the rag-tag army of Hammerfel rather quickly and held in that position for 5 years, and that was with 5 years of Dominion reinforcements).

 

 

All in all, Mede was a smart general and a brave soldier, but a terrible wimp and idiot of a politician. He had the ability at the time to make virtually any demand of the Dominion. He might not have gotten the Dominion territory in its entirety, but he certainly could have forced the Dominion's containment in their own lands.

 

That he, after winning the war in Cyrodiil (no matter how Pyrrhic it was) and looking at the situation in Hammerfel, ceded so much to the losing side (he gave the Dominion virtually all of the original Demands they made at the beginning of the war) only shows that he was either A, a Total idiot, B, a total wimp, or C, completely uncaring about anything other than Cyrodiil's own troubles.

 

Yes Cyrodiil suffered greatly in the war, but thats no excuse to completely screw over the rest of your holdings just so spare one province another enemy soldier stepping foot across the border (when mind you they wouldn't have anyway. The Dominion couldn't have mounted another invasion (not even a weak one at best) of Cyrodiil after the losses sustained in the IC).

[Freya1997]

Doesn't Ulfric flat out admit that he can't take on the empire in a full out war? I recall he says something like if the emperor visits Solitude when you're ready to take it in the Civil War questline.

 

Assuming the wiki quotes him correctly, this is what he says about it: "We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's cousin is getting married! If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire. So we'll bide our time for now." and "We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's visiting! The goddamned Emperor! And, as much as I'd like to kill the man myself, we can't risk an all out war with the Empire. We'll bide our time for now..."

 

Which suggests that even if he did manage to win, he's screwed if the empire or the Aldmeri dominion drops by in force. So the only reason he has a chance now is because the Aldmeri Dominion makes it so that the empire can't afford to have their army deal with this directly.

[imperistan]

I think something some have missed is that Beth actually gave us the choice to virtually end the war for either side. Unless another Dragonbreak happens (doubtful) then I think its clear that Beth intends for both victories to have a the same relative long term repercussions, just with different colored flags. If winning the war on either side did eventually mean (without another even more significant event taking place afterwards that would actually decide it, which is still possible and probably likely) that things wouldn't end up going all right for the good guys, so to speak (IE, Dominion not wiping out all Humanity, etc etc) then I can't see why Beth would allow us to steer towards that actually occurring (and indeed bringing it to fruition) unless they plan on ending the series or for some ugly reason forcing us to only play as elves.

 

Either way, I think we simply do not have the whole story, though we can still make a pretty good case for either side (though for both sides it all depends on a lot of things falling into place perfectly) on how they'd actually do in the coming months/years. From what we actually know, either side could actually turn out victorious against the Dominion provided things work perfectly in that sides favor.

 

Indeed, a lot of things actually depend on Hammerfel. Without Hammerfel, both sides are screwed no matter what. (or at least will be forced into a fairly drawn out war).

 

And also Freyja, one has to consider that he only says that while the Emperor is there. Without the Emperor he plows on taking Solitude and the rest of Skyrim without even mentioning a full on war with the Empire. What this tells me is that it isn't so much that the Empire could just roll in and put the Rebellion to rest in a couple of days, but that the Stormcloak army isn't in a position to become a full fledged field army, ie, the kind of army you march out against another in one big epic battle, but still a strong enough army that if Skyrim was taken by the rebels it could hold out long enough to build up the strength necessary to meet the rest of the Empire in battle.

 

You also have to consider that if the Legion rolls up into Skyrim, then that leaves Cyrodiil quite vulnerable. No matter how you spin it, the Legion will end up in a very bad place if Skyrim goes independent. The Dominion could decide they want to strike, and before they know it the Legion has to fight a two front war with no help from its most important province resource wise and far and away from the only other province that could pick up the slack (High Rock might be right next to Skyrim, but it would inevitably become a war front that would block supplies quite easily. We also have consider the possibility of Hammerfel denying the Empire access to its borders, further hampering supply lines and making things all the easier for Skyrim).

 

It is doubtful that if the Legion cannot even spare troops to put down a rebellion in a vital province that it could go on to fight a 3 front war successfully with the Empire's actual land holdings so split and the fronts spread relatively far apart as well.

 

And as for the Dominion, all evidence currently points to their army not only being inherently weak (particularly against an army thats going to see it coming (The Dominion would have to conquer the Empire to invade by land and make an extremely expensive voyage by sea (With a TON of soldiers) to invade by sea)) but also very unlikely to be able to actually contend with the Legion, the Stormcloaks or really any other standing army in Tamriel.

 

They already lost a vast amount of their soldiers in the Great War (and the Altmer (the main bulk of the Dominion army) don't breed anywhere near fast enough to make up those losses in a mere 20 years) and quite honestly if sheer numbers and individual might are going to be the deciding factors in battles (which in general will be, particularly in Skyrim) then the Dominion will be at a severe disadvantage.

 

Sure they'll have mages, but a few mages per every 10-20 or so soldiers (Not every Altmer is a long-studied mage, there are Altmer in Skyrim that even say this) aren't going to make up for the severe differences in personal might between a mainly Nordic army and a mainly Elven army.

[Freya1997]

That's pretty much why I think he believes he can pull it off. In this situation the empire just can't afford to send a full military force unless something really dire happens. Which it does of the stormcloaks win, but then again the emperor is assassinated so the repercussions from that makes it hard to tell how it would go. It's interesting and I do look forward to see how Bethesda intends to solve it. At least things are open so that they could easily go wherever they want at the moment. Not a bad set up really.