Which one is "good", which one is "evil"?

[Inquart]

YEs, but what happened to Morrowind did weaken the Empire. Thats an entire province lost. And that was my point. This isn't so black and white that you can use the logic that if X weakens the Empire, and Benefits the Dominion, that X = Bad/Wrong/Whatever.

 

Agreed about Morrowind, but like I said - the Thalmor are now first and foremost interested in as much chaos within the Empire as it's possible, in destabilization and internal strife...and precisely that's what Ulfric did.

 

This issue isn't a simple matter of Good guys versus the evil elves, its a matter of whether or not the Empire is worth saving. Whether the Empire deserves to continue chugging along despite the fact that it doesn't even deserve to be called the "Empire" as we all like to call it. The Mede Occupation of the former Empire is not quite something I am willing to support, not only because of their track record but also because they simply are not the Empire that we all know and love. A stolen throne is no throne worth supporting. Its a matter of whether the Empire is in the best interests of Tamriel in this given climate, or whether it would be better to allow a new force to arise to cut a new swath through Tamriel and reforge the peace and unity that was known since Talos' time.

 

Denouncing something like the Rebellion simply on the basis that it benefits the Dominion is completely ignoring that there's more at stake then just some hyper-crazy elves trying to wipe out humanity. The entire future of Tamriel is in the balance, well beyond the Dominion issue and well beyond this Civil War.

 

I think calling the Empire "Mede Occupation" is a bit harsh; don't forget that the same Medes practically saved the Empire after (not during) the Oblivion Crisis. Without Colovian warlord by the name of Titus Mede, the Empire would have crumbled then and there. Of course the current Empire isn't our beloved Septim Empire, but dynasties change, that's just their thing; Titus Mede did not steal the throne, how could you steal something without an actual owner? The Septims were dead and extinct after Martin's sacrifice. And the Council? Apart from High Chancellor Ocato, by the way - killed by the Thalmor some time after the Oblivion Crisis, I'm afraid it's just a bunch of power-hungry egoists, certainly not worthy of any trust. If you see now anything actually better than the Empire, even in its current state, then be my guest - I for one think that the Empire is not perfect, but it's still a lot better than nothing.

 

I agree about the future of Tamriel being at stake though.

 

Except thats just playing right into their hands. You don't bide your time with an enemy that only grows stronger the longer you leave it alone, and especially so when you allow them free reign to run about your own holdings virtually uncontrolled. Any real force the Empire builds up to fight the Dominion is going to be seen a mile away.

 

Agreed, but what would you have the Empire do, then? I really don't like using real-life examples and I'm sorry if I overstep some boundaries here, but if the Aldmeri Dominion is so often compared (not without reason of course) to the Third Reich, then I think we may call the Empire a Skyrim-based version of Vichy France; yes, it is defeated and weak, yes, the enemy has free reign to do as he pleases, but what's the most important is survival. Of course we shouldn't be clinging to the Empire no matter what, but let's at least give it a fair chance.

 

OF course. The problem is when. The Stormcloaks would have their war now, which is really the right idea given how the Dominion likes to operate.

 

Yes, the Dominion could be defeated only in an open combat, that's true.

 

I'd rather not place my trust in hope, and especially not hope in the Empire.

 

What else do we have? I mean, the situation is pretty grim.

 

Things you have to realize:

 

1. Hammerfels forces alone are a force to be reckoned with, and can only be made better by what the Empire can provide, no matter how small.

 

2. The Empire has 2 untouched provinces to draw fresh troops from, plus the two that were affected by the war. Skyrim and High Rock. The Dominion has none, as it drew the bulk of its armies from its two provinces already and with what the Dominion was planning I doubt they could have really conscripted/recruited as many troops after the War of the Red Ring as the Empire could.

 

3. The Dominion didn't have to be outright defeated or even invaded at this time. They could have easily been beaten back into their own borders (which is essentially what happened after 5 years anyway, and Hammerfel did that by itself) and Mede would have been in a perfect position to, at the very least, demand unconditional peace. He was already in a position to do that back when he destroyed the army in Cyrodiil, and if he continued the war he would have ended up having that power again after it was time to stop it.

 

I for one would have gladly supported the continued existence of the Dominion, if only for as long as it takes to rebuild, reinforce, and prepare for the next eventual war. What I cannot support however is catering to all of their original demands (The Denial of which started this war btw) when they lost. TWICE.

 

1. Hammerfell succeeded only in stopping the Dominion and while that's an astonishing accomplishment in itself, it's still not a victory per se, pyrrhic at best. Stopping the Dominion when it's invading your land is one thing, the Empire did that too, albeit at great cost; invading the Dominion itself is something quite different.

 

2. Here we can agree, but that's just another reason to support the Empire - in case of eventual conflict, it has better chances. In theory at least.

 

3. Well, first of all, the Dominion seeks to unite all provinces of Tamriel under its heels, with the Elves being on top everywhere. They won't settle with anything short from that. Second, the Dominion's long-term objective is total annihilation of not only Men as an inferior race, but also the liquidation of the very notion of humanity in Tamriel. Knowing that, defeating the Dominion and allowing it to exist in any form is the graviest mistake one can ever commit - eventually it will rebuild and it will all start over again. No, both the Dominion itself and its ruling body, the Thalmor, must be utterly destroyed, there's no other way.

 

And yet they are wary at giving Ulfric too much support.

 

Maybe because they're interested in prolonging the Civil War and bleeding out both the Empire's forces in Skyrim and the Stormcloaks?

Edited November 23, 2012 by Inquart

[RighthandofSithis]

 

Things you have to realize:

 

1. Hammerfels forces alone are a force to be reckoned with, and can only be made better by what the Empire can provide, no matter how small.

 

2. The Empire has 2 untouched provinces to draw fresh troops from, plus the two that were affected by the war. Skyrim and High Rock. The Dominion has none, as it drew the bulk of its armies from its two provinces already and with what the Dominion was planning I doubt they could have really conscripted/recruited as many troops after the War of the Red Ring as the Empire could.

 

3. The Dominion didn't have to be outright defeated or even invaded at this time. They could have easily been beaten back into their own borders (which is essentially what happened after 5 years anyway, and Hammerfel did that by itself) and Mede would have been in a perfect position to, at the very least, demand unconditional peace. He was already in a position to do that back when he destroyed the army in Cyrodiil, and if he continued the war he would have ended up having that power again after it was time to stop it.

 

I for one would have gladly supported the continued existence of the Dominion, if only for as long as it takes to rebuild, reinforce, and prepare for the next eventual war. What I cannot support however is catering to all of their original demands (The Denial of which started this war btw) when they lost. TWICE.

 

1. Hammerfell succeeded only in stopping the Dominion and while that's an astonishing accomplishment in itself, it's still not a victory per se, pyrrhic at best. Stopping the Dominion when it's invading your land is one thing, the Empire did that too, albeit at great cost; invading the Dominion itself is something quite different.

 

2. Here we can agree, but that's just another reason to support the Empire - in case of eventual conflict, it has better chances. In theory at least.

 

3. Well, first of all, the Dominion seeks to unite all provinces of Tamriel under its heels, with the Elves being on top everywhere. They won't settle with anything short from that. Second, the Dominion's long-term objective is total annihilation of not only Men as an inferior race, but also the liquidation of the very notion of humanity in Tamriel. Knowing that, defeating the Dominion and allowing it to exist in any form is the graviest mistake one can ever commit - eventually it will rebuild and it will all start over again. No, both the Dominion itself and its ruling body, the Thalmor, must be utterly destroyed, there's no other way.

 

No, quite the opposite.

 

The Empire is experiencing internal strife in 2 out of three provinces (Skyrim and Cyrodiil [Cicero]), so far, High Rock seems content (from dialogue between Ulfric and Galmar).

 

Revolutionary ideals do not die easily, particularly during a revolutionary situation. As long as the Empire lives, it will have to struggle against internal resistance, and external pressure by the Dominion. SHould it die, however, the provinces (skyrim at least), would very probably be considerably more stable and powerful (economically and thus militarily, as instead of trying to make its treasury break even, Skyrim would theoretically be able to use its resources to rebuild itself, and its forces).

 

Having land to drawe troops from, means nothing if you can't pay them, and even less if they begin to revolt.

[Inquart]

Revolutionary ideals do not die easily, particularly during a revolutionary situation. As long as the Empire lives, it will have to struggle against internal resistance, and external pressure by the Dominion. SHould it die, however, the provinces (skyrim at least), would very probably be considerably more stable and powerful (economically and thus militarily, as instead of trying to make its treasury break even, Skyrim would theoretically be able to use its resources to rebuild itself, and its forces).

 

So because of a petty rebellion in one of the provinces and a bunch of Empire-hating Elves over in Alinor, we should just go and completely dissolve the Empire? I'm sure the Thalmor would love that. Revolutionary situation? The Stormcloak Uprising started with Ulfric and it would end with his possible death, of course if one sided with the Legion during the Civil War questline; all that's left are some rebels scattered here and there, easy to be tracked down and rooted out once and for all. Besides, none of the provinces would survive for long on its own. Unity is the best weapon against the Dominion; it doesn't necessarily have to be an Imperial unity, but all the provinces simply must cooperate to fight their true and mutual enemy (the Thalmor) and by far, the Empire seems to be the best and probably the only uniting factor, even in its current state, which I'm sure is one of just a temporary weakness.

Edited November 23, 2012 by Inquart

[Lachdonin]

SHould it die, however, the provinces (skyrim at least), would very probably be considerably more stable and powerful (economically and thus militarily, as instead of trying to make its treasury break even, Skyrim would theoretically be able to use its resources to rebuild itself, and its forces).

 

This has never been shown to be the case following the collapse of a Tamrelic empire (Allessan or Reman), nor is it typically the case in any real-world analogue. In fact, the process by which empries are carved up is characteristic of Balkanization, which results in lower wealth, increased political instability and infighting for decades, if not centuries after the empire in question desolves. We've seen it in the real world with the collapse of Alexanders empire, the Roman empire, several imperial dynasties in China, the British Empire and the Soviet Union. I cannot think of a single instance, historically, where the collapse of an empire actually led to a unilateral increase in local economies. Usually you have one area or another exploting the regional dependance on goods (previously supplied through imperial trade) but for the most part the standard of wealth drops.

 

Not to mention that, when you have an Empire collapse in the presence of a rival imperial power, the territories of the defunct empire are almost always subsumed by the other power. This is seen readily (again) within China's imperial dynasties, the Roman conquest of Britain and Asia-Minor, the Mongols, the Spanish conquest of the new world and the collapse of the Portugese empire (and subsequent scendance of the French and British).

 

In Tamriel, the collapse of an Empire has typically resulted in massive infighting between the provinces, even when Mer were new ascendant power. The whole asumption that, following a total collapse of the Empire, the provinces of men would unite simply has no historic or logical basis. It's a subjectivist fallacy, and no matter how much you want to beleive it, there is no evidence to support it.

 

Then you also have the issue that you only have Ulfric's word that he wants to take the fight to the Thalmor. If you want to invalidate Tullius', or the Empires assertion that they fully intend to fight the Thalmor, based only on the fact that it's a personal claim, then Ulfric's claim is equally invalid.

 

As for the "The Empire should have already attacked" arguement... I'm not even sure why i'm bothering addressing it, because it shows a lack of understanding for why the Empire didn't emediately invade the Domminion following the Battle of the Red Ring. The Empire still maintained sufficient military numbers to make them the winner of the Great War, but the majority of the fighting happened in the heartland of the Empire. Agriculturally, Cyrodiil is the cornerstone of the Empire's survival, and we are told in TES5 that Skyrim is largely dependant on food imported from Cyrodiil. It can survive on it's own, sure but thriving is a different matter. Geographically, highrock is similar, so agriculture would not likely be more prevelent there than in Skyrim. We also know Red Mountain continues to bellow out its wonderful bounty, and that the agricultural core of Morrowind (the southlands, former domain of House Dres) is in the hands of the Argonians, so it's contribution is likely negligable.

 

Anyway, following the Great War, the Empire's economy was hit hard. The deciding factor in not continueing the war wasn't a lack of troops (we know the Empire had several legions worth of troops left, and if we consider a legion to be roughly that of a Roman legion, we're looking at a military strength in the tens of thousands) but war wearyness and the lack of infastructure required to support a war abroad.

 

Now, anyone who is familiar with agriculture will tell you that the introduction of large volumes of unrefined organic material into farmland has a tendancy to cause it to fallow. Manure and other organic fertilizers can't just be turned into the soil, right out of the animal, but have to be properly handled (in the case of manure, usually curing through its own generated heat, hense the huge piles of crap in the countryside). Battle, typically, leaves areas of farmland fallow, or at least at a fraction of their healthy production, for as much as 50 years (pre-gunpowder). This isn't new knowlege, but was in fact a common tactic of the Romans, who prefered to fight on the enemies agriculture, ensuring that even in defeat they hampered their enemies ability to recover. Ayway, the result of tends of thousands of dead seeping into the farmland of central Cyrodiil would have affected its agriculture for decades (the Great War was only 30 years before Skyrim, remember) and thats before we even take into account the scorched earth antics of the Thalmor while they held the Imperial City. Throw some magic in there, which we all know can leave a lasting impact on the landscape, and you have a perfect recipie for long-term economic damage.

 

The fact that the Empire seems almost ready to take on the Domminion again, after only 30 years, should be an amazing turnaround (again, likely due to magic, but what'cha gonna do... it's magic). Replenishing the Legions, given a humans lifespan, isn't hard (a decade, two at the most) but it's ensuring a stable chain of supply which dictates the flow of war, and when you get hit as hard as the Empire, that's a harder thing to pull off.

 

On the other hand, the Altmer don't replenish numbers as quickly, and have likely not rebuilt their armies to the strength of the Great War. Their inquisition, and the fact we know they incite rebellion, shows that they are afraid of the Empire's quickly replenished strength. If you have a side who already scares the enemy, why would you take a gamble on one which could, potentially, maybe, match the strength of the current one?

 

I'm sorry, but there are plenty of reasons to side with the Stormcloaks. The 'They have a better chance against the Thalmor' one has so little going for it, you might as well discount it entirely.

[RighthandofSithis]

I'll address Inquart first.

 

For a start, the Skyrim (and by extent the Empire) is in a revolutionary situation. It had been degenerating for 200 years, and the Great War greatly accelerated the Empire's degeneration. Its almost inevitable that the Empire has found itself in economic dire straights.

 

The White-Gold Concordate was signed to save the Empire, or more specifically, to save its aristocratic elite. The ruling class of the Empire oppresses and profits off of the aristocracy of it's provinces. This said, the Nordic aristocracy has begun a class war against the Empire.

 

And a revolution, is impossible without a revolutionary situation.

 

Now, to address Lachdonin, I'll also address some of Inquart's points.

 

(I apologise if I've missed something in your post, but I'm a bit tired, and have been travelling for a few days).

 

A united front is indeed necessary to confront the Dominion, however, the Empire is not the solution to this. As I've stated, the Empire has been experiencing internal unrest, coupled with external pressure. I think, Inquart, that you have underestimated the severity of this issue. Cicero virtually paints a Cyrodiil ravaged by Strife. He doesn't simply say that there has been some unrest, he states that Bravil and Cheydinhal ave been engulfed by violence, and later states to the player that this has spread to the entirety of the Imperial Province. The situation has gotten so bad that an organisation as powerful as the Dark Brotherhood has been bought to its knees. He has even taken such drastic action as to relocate the Night Mother to Skyrim. And of course, as previously stated, Skyrim is experiencing a revolution in its own right.

 

This is not the image of a force capable of confronting a superpower and uniting an entire continent. In fact, this is evidence that the Empire is rapidly collapsing. As Lachdonin stated, a collapsed Empire cannot ever dream of confronting the Dominion. The Stormcloaks on the other hand, are not simply sitting around and waiting for the Empire to collapse around their ears. They are a revolutionary force acting on behalf of the Nordic aristocracy. While yes, they will feel the pain in the short term of their secession, they will very probably be able to reform Skyrim into a much more stable, and stronger force. Think of it like some other significant revolutions, such as France or Russia. Within a few decades, France was able to launch the Napoleonic Wars, and Russia turned from a backward, feudal society into an industiral giant capable of confronting Nazi Germany.

 

Of course, remaining with the Empire can have very different effects. In its current state of degeneration, coupled with the Thalmor tactic of intentionally undermining the Empire, its almost inevitable that the Empire will collapse'. While secession will pose some issues in the short term, remaining with the Empire, and collapsing with it will cause a situation described by Lachdonin.

 

In this sense, the Empire is just as unable to combat the thalmor as much as the Stormcloaks.

 

However, I never advocated that the Stormcloaks along could combat the Thalmor. I believe they can hold their own against them, but not defeat them single handedly. Hammerfell and Skyrim, on the other hand, have a better chance. Such an alliance may be optimistic speculation, but its not without foundations. Both the Nords and the Redguards have reason to respect each other as warrior cultures with a common enemy. And history has known some unlikely alliances. In TES, the Ebonheart Pact united the oldest of enemies, and IRL, both the Western Allies and the USSR where bitter enemies, until of course it became apparent that Nazi Germany was a bigger issue.

[imperistan]

Agreed about Morrowind, but like I said - the Thalmor are now first and foremost interested in as much chaos within the Empire as it's possible, in destabilization and internal strife...and precisely that's what Ulfric did.

 

And the point you continue to miss is that the destabilization of the Empire isn't a bad thing.

 

; Titus Mede did not steal the throne, how could you steal something without an actual owner?

 

By circumventing the organization that had the actual authority to say who gets to sit on the throne next. It was the Elder Council's responsibility to find someone to take up the throne. Mede had no right to come in and take the throne at sword point.

 

Agreed, but what would you have the Empire do, then?

 

Expel the Dominion and go to war, like they should have done years ago. Make amends with Hammerfel (either gaining them back as a province or at least as an ally) and end this stupidity in Skyrim. The Third Reich didn't do what it did and then just ended up being destroyed all nice and easy with no losses to the Allies. And neither will the Dominion.

 

A long, bloody war is on the horizon and every moment the Empire sits in inactivity is just giving all the advantage to the Dominion. Problem is though is that the Empire no longer has the strategic advantages it had back after the war here in present. It'd be nothing short of a miracle if the Empire actually secured Hammerfel's allegiance, and as we all know the Dominion has a spy network all across the Empire, further weakening what advantages it has left.

 

And I wouldn't say that the Empire is like France. The Empire never fell and was never beaten nor even remotely near being beaten.

 

What else do we have? I mean, the situation is pretty grim.

 

No reason to lose sight of reason. Beating down the Dominion here and now is a sound strategy that will turn the tide in the eventual invasion that would take place.

 

1. Hammerfell succeeded only in stopping the Dominion and while that's an astonishing accomplishment in itself, it's still not a victory per se, pyrrhic at best. Stopping the Dominion when it's invading your land is one thing, the Empire did that too, albeit at great cost; invading the Dominion itself is something quite different.

 

Yes but like I said, the Dominion didn't have to be invaded back then, and in fact would have been a bad move altogether. Its one thing to consolidate and thoroughly beat back an invader, another to invade the invaders.

 

2. Here we can agree, but that's just another reason to support the Empire - in case of eventual conflict, it has better chances. In theory at least.

 

Thing was was that that was back then. In the present however, its a different story.

 

Knowing that, defeating the Dominion and allowing it to exist in any form is the graviest mistake one can ever commit - eventually it will rebuild and it will all start over again. No, both the Dominion itself and its ruling body, the Thalmor, must be utterly destroyed, there's no other way.

 

So you agree with me then. Excellent.

 

Maybe because they're interested in prolonging the Civil War and bleeding out both the Empire's forces in Skyrim and the Stormcloaks?

 

Yes, but that misses my point.

 

So because of a petty rebellion in one of the provinces and a bunch of Empire-hating Elves over in Alinor, we should just go and completely dissolve the Empire?

 

No. Its the Empire's actions since the start of the Great War that necessitate the dissolution of the Empire. The revolutionary state starting to appear in the Empire is only a result of that.

[UrgeNexus]

Here are my two septims on the matter.

 

No matter how you look at it, what remains of the Empire is stronger than Skyrim on it's own. A war will come eventually and Skyrim is better off fighting with the Empire than rushing into war alone. Another factor that can not be ignored is the Dovahkiin. Whatever side has an immensely powerfull demigod with them will obviously gain a signifigant advantage militarily and a massive morale boost. As I said, the Empire may be weak, but it is still stronger than Skyrim on it's own, add the Dragonborn into the equation and I think the Empire is ultimately the best choice.

 

When completing the civil war questline as an Imperial, the Dragonborn becomes a legate very quickly and there's no reason to think that, if the Dragonborn continues to fight with the Imperial legion, he/she would continue to rise in the ranks. Say the Dragonborn becomes a general, imagine if General Tullius had the power to call forth a storm, command dragons to fight for him and wreak havoc on the battlefield with the tremendous destructive power of the Thu'um, plus incredible skill in magic or melee combat or both. I am leaving stealthy characters out of this as it doesn't serve much use on an actual battlefield, though a Dragonborn assassin could certainly do a lot of harm as well.

 

But the Dovahkiin brings more to the table, right now his/her fame is mostly contained to Skyrim, but that won't last. Word will get out of the hero who defeated Alduin, it also stands to reason that the events of Dawnguard and possibly Dragonborn (The DLC) would also contribute to building up the Dovahkiin's legendary status. If word got out that the Dovahkiin was going to war and had the Empire behind him/her, I have no doubt that any nations currently on bad terms with the Empire (Mainly Hammerfell) would gladly join the fight.

 

What happens to the Empire after the Dominion has been neutralised is completely irrelevant. It may be the right time for the Empire to dissolve and for the various nations to rule themselves, but that time hasn't come quite yet if you ask me.

[luzburg]

If the Dragonborn declares for the empire it would make sense that the Stormcloak rebellion would fall away. After all here you have a guy who has taken Talos' old title, hes essentially Talos Reborn. Whether thats true or not doesn't matter. A clever Dragonborn would encourage that rumour to spread and he'd have a cult around him in no time. He could win the allegiance of the dragons and bring ruin to the Aldmeri Dominion.

[Inquart]

For a start, the Skyrim (and by extent the Empire) is in a revolutionary situation.

 

The Empire itself - probably. But Skyrim - no, I don't think so. Any "revolutionary situation" there started with Ulfric's uprising and would end with it; before that, situation was still far from perfect, of course, but many Nords still worshipped Talos in their homes without any interference from Cyrodiil and thus, weren't all militant and "down with the faithless Empire!" about that. Ulfric's rebellion was not a just crusade for Skyrim's independence and religious freedom in the province, but his own private war for the throne. Besides, it was something the Thalmor envisioned and wanted from the very beginning, that's the only reason they'd set him free in the closing stages of the Great War; I mean, we know that one of the Thalmor's main goals is hunting down all and any Talos worshippers, so when a whole militia of them shows up in Skyrim and the Empire seems to be unable to deal with the problem accordingly, they arrive - not to end the rebellion (they want something quite the opposite, if we can believe their own documents), but to use it to further tighten their grip over the province. I guess we can say there was some turmoil in Skyrim, but one man's ambition and blindness to being a useful puppet for the enemy can't really be used as an argument to dissolve the Empire, which in case of the Stormcloaks Uprising reacted as it should - by capturing and putting Ulfric down. Well, almost.

 

And the point you continue to miss is that the destabilization of the Empire isn't a bad thing.

 

I'll put it this way, then: whatever the Empire loses, the Dominion gains. Black Marsh and Argonian-occupied parts of Morrowind might be an exception (the question is - for how long?), but still.

 

By circumventing the organization that had the actual authority to say who gets to sit on the throne next. It was the Elder Council's responsibility to find someone to take up the throne. Mede had no right to come in and take the throne at sword point.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I my memory serves me well, the Elder Council was virtually unable to name an Emperor back then. Isn't that why Ocato reluctantly became Potentate of the Empire? After his assassination by the rising Thalmor came the Stormcrown Interregnum and the Council fractured even further, with its members not only unable to fulfill their sacred duty to the Empire anymore because of their never-ending quarrels and petty schemes, but also a lot more concerned about their own interests than about the Empire itself. To blame Titus Mede for taking the power over from their greedy hands is like blaming a cure for working.

 

Expel the Dominion and go to war, like they should have done years ago. Make amends with Hammerfel (either gaining them back as a province or at least as an ally) and end this stupidity in Skyrim. The Third Reich didn't do what it did and then just ended up being destroyed all nice and easy with no losses to the Allies. And neither will the Dominion.

 

A long, bloody war is on the horizon and every moment the Empire sits in inactivity is just giving all the advantage to the Dominion. Problem is though is that the Empire no longer has the strategic advantages it had back after the war here in present. It'd be nothing short of a miracle if the Empire actually secured Hammerfel's allegiance, and as we all know the Dominion has a spy network all across the Empire, further weakening what advantages it has left.

 

I guess we both agree that the Dominion must be destroyed - the difference is when and how. On one hand, the Thalmor agents in the Empire should be expelled, yes; but because that would be like a declaration of war, the Empire should be ready - and it can't get ready with Thalmor still around, more or less openly controlling its every move. So on the other hand, getting ready after expelling the Elves back to whatever holes they'd crawled out from on Alinor would be a grave mistake from military point of view.

 

No. Its the Empire's actions since the start of the Great War that necessitate the dissolution of the Empire. The revolutionary state starting to appear in the Empire is only a result of that.

 

Maybe, but as UrgeNexus said - whatever remains of the Empire is still stronger than Skyrim or any other province on its own, at least in case of another war with the Dominion. Whatever happens with the Empire after the fall of the Dominion is a different story though.

[luzburg]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I my memory serves me well, the Elder Council was virtually unable to name an Emperor back then. Isn't that why Ocato reluctantly became Potentate of the Empire? After his assassination by the rising Thalmor came the Stormcrown Interregnum and the Council fractured even further, with its members not only unable to fulfill their sacred duty to the Empire anymore because of their never-ending quarrels and petty schemes, but also a lot more concerned about their own interests than about the Empire itself. To blame Titus Mede for taking the power over from their greedy hands is like blaming a cure for working.

 

Stormcrown. I heard that before, the greybeards mention it. What is it?

 

"Long has the stormcrown languished, with no worthy brow to sit upon"

 

I think thats it.