Which one is "good", which one is "evil"?

[Inquart]

Stormcrown. I heard that before, the greybeards mention it. What is it?

 

"Long has the stormcrown languished, with no worthy brow to sit upon"

 

I think thats it.

 

I'm no loremaster myself, but as far as my knowledge reaches, the Stormcrown Interregnum started in 4E 10, when Potentate Ocato (former High Chancellor) was assassinated by the rising Thalmor as a possible threat to their plans. Up until 4E 17, the fractured Elder Council was practically unable to name a new Emperor because of all the infighting and egoistic, self-serving, petty schemes within the Council itself, thus further weakening both the leaderless Empire and its grip over other provinces; finally, in 4E 17, Colovian warlord named Titus Mede captured both the Imperial City and the Ruby Throne and was thus crowned the new Emperor of Tamriel.

Edited November 24, 2012 by Inquart

[luzburg]

Stormcrown. I heard that before, the greybeards mention it. What is it?

 

"Long has the stormcrown languished, with no worthy brow to sit upon"

 

I think thats it.

 

I'm no loremaster myself, but as far as my knowledge reaches, the Stormcrown Interregnum started in 4E 10, when Potentate Ocato (former High Chancellor) was assassinated by the rising Thalmor as a possible threat to their plans. Up until 4E 17, the fractured Elder Council was practically unable to name a new Emperor because of all the infighting and egoistic, self-serving, petty schemes within the Council itself, thus further weakening both the leaderless Empire and its grip over other provinces; finally, in 4E 17, Colovian warlord named Titus Mede captured both the Imperial City and the Ruby Throne and was thus crowned the new Emperor of Tamriel.

 

Ah. Is the stormcrown the name of the imperial crown?

[Inquart]

Ah. Is the stormcrown the name of the imperial crown?

 

As far as I know, "Stormcrown" was a translation of late Tiber Septim's original, Atmoran name, i. e. Talos (that loud Talos priest in Whiterun, Heimskr, can even be sometimes heard shouting "Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown!"). Hence, Stormcrown Interregnum means a period without Talos (or his heir, to be exact) on the Empire's throne.

Edited November 24, 2012 by Inquart

[luzburg]

Ah. Is the stormcrown the name of the imperial crown?

 

As far as I know, "Stormcrown" was a translation of late Tiber Septim's original, Atmoran name, i. e. Talos (that loud Talos priest in Whiterun, Heimskr, can even be sometimes heard shouting "Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown!"). Hance, Stormcrown Interregnum means a period without Talos (or his heir, to be exact) on the Empire's throne.

 

Does that mean the greybeards have anointed the Dragonborn as Heir to Tiber Septim?

[Inquart]

Does that mean the greybeards have anointed the Dragonborn as Heir to Tiber Septim?

 

I would rather say that they have recognized him as a true Dovahkiin and officialy declared him a reincarnation of Talos, more or less. During that "initiation" in High Hrothgar, the Greybeards even refer to the Dovahkiin as "Ysmir, Dragon of the North", which was one of Talos' many names.

[Lachdonin]

Talos Stormcrown's legitimacy as a Dragonborn remains somewhat dubious, as there are still competing stories about his actual orrigins. He could have been Dragonborn, he could have used the powers of Wulfhearth (Ysmir) to make himself SEEM like Dragonborn. Considering it is also dubious whether or not a particular bloodline was crucial for the Dragonfires, being that Uriel may not even have been a blood-septim, we can't really make any solid conclusions about Talos in general. Except that we know for a fact he did become a God.

 

Still, i wouldn't expect the Dragonborn to take the Imperial throne, because TES PC's have a tendancy to remove themselves from history as soon as they ahve fulfiled their destiny. If we were to become Emperor, it would have to be a final stage of Skyrim's DLC, and would require a serious solidification of our choices, thus risking invalidating the decisions of the players. They could pull off another Dragon Break, of course, but use that card too many times and it gets stale.

 

Now, before i continue, i would like to thank you, Right Hand of Sithis, for your response. The fact that you even tried to address some of the issues raised, rather than falling back on rhetoric or supposition shows much better arguementation skills than i've come to expect in these discussions.

 

Now, to address the issues. First, the collapse of the Empire is not enevitable. The Empire (being the Septim Empire) has gone through several periods of internal unrest, revolt and revolution, not the least of which involving Potema and Pelagius. Incedents in Hammerfell, Highrock, Blackmarsh and Morrowind have also chacterised the last 600 years of Imperial history in Tamriel. As such, the presense of revolting factions within the Empire cannot be taken as an absolute expression of its enevitable downfall.

 

Second, you (Sithis) did not address the suspicious behaviour of the Thalmor. It is not characteristic for a superior force to attempt to destabilise a rival through subterfuge and insurrection. Rather, the major drive of the Thalmor Inquisition reveals that the Thalmor view the Empire as, at the very least, and equal power, though their determination to drag out internal conflicts (thus draining manpower and resources) implies that the Empire is, in fact, in a better possition for another war than the Domminion.

 

Third, we know from Balgruf, and the historic background of Skyrim, that their independancy typically comes with a borderline absurd amount of infighting. Despite a supposedly unified government, under the High King, fighting between the Holds was common, often at inoportune times. Take for instance the First Era, when the Nords controlled most of northren Tamriel. A single defeat at Red Mountain sent them into turmoil and civil war, which cost them their empire and left them unable to deal with engroching Bretons, Imperials and Chimer. Yes, there is the possibility that a free Skyrim could quicly sort out its succession issues and remain stable for decades, if not centuries, but it's just as likely that it be plagued by infighting for the same period. And gods forbid someone should knife Ulfric after the Stormcloak victory, because the other Jarls would tear eachother appart.

 

Finally, on the alliance with Hammerfell. Yes, both are largely warrior cultures (and by that we mean maintain large, psudo-military bodies, but the majority of their populations are still civilian) but there has, again, never been any indication that this has fostered any good blood with the Nords. Both the Dunmer and Orsimer are also warrior cultures, and they are amongst the most hated rivals of the Nords. In fact, the style of Nordic culture seems to lean more towards a mandated rivalry with other similar cultures, rather than respect or cooperation.

Edited November 24, 2012 by Lachdonin

[RighthandofSithis]

For a start, the Skyrim (and by extent the Empire) is in a revolutionary situation.

 

The Empire itself - probably. But Skyrim - no, I don't think so. Any "revolutionary situation" there started with Ulfric's uprising and would end with it.

 

From my understanding, as a marxist, revolutionary situations dont just 'go away'when the 'revolution is put down. For example, the 1905 revolution was put down, but that didn't help the situation.

 

What would help the situation, would be strong social reform, and with the Empire in its current state, I doubt that will happen.

[RighthandofSithis]

Now, before i continue, i would like to thank you, Right Hand of Sithis, for your response. The fact that you even tried to address some of the issues raised, rather than falling back on rhetoric or supposition shows much better arguementation skills than i've come to expect in these discussions.

 

Now, to address the issues. First, the collapse of the Empire is not enevitable. The Empire (being the Septim Empire) has gone through several periods of internal unrest, revolt and revolution, not the least of which involving Potema and Pelagius. Incedents in Hammerfell, Highrock, Blackmarsh and Morrowind have also chacterised the last 600 years of Imperial history in Tamriel. As such, the presense of revolting factions within the Empire cannot be taken as an absolute expression of its enevitable downfall.

 

Second, you (Sithis) did not address the suspicious behaviour of the Thalmor. It is not characteristic for a superior force to attempt to destabilise a rival. Rather, the major drive of the Thalmor Inquisition reveals that the Thalmor view the Empire as, at the very least, and equal power, though their determination to drag out internal conflicts (thus draining manpower and resources) implies that the Empire is, in fact, in a better possition for another war than the Domminion.

 

Third, we know from Balgruf, and the historic background of Skyrim, that their independancy typically comes with a borderline absurd amount of infighting. Despite a supposedly unified government, under the High King, fighting between the Holds was common, often at inoportune times. Take for instance the First Era, when the Nords controlled most of northren Tamriel. A single defeat at Red Mountain sent them into turmoil and civil war, which cost them their empire and left them unable to deal with engroching Bretons, Imperials and Chimer. Yes, there is the possibility that a free Skyrim could quicly sort out its succession issues and remain stable for decades, if not centuries, but it's just as likely that it be plagued by infighting for the same period. And gods forbid someone should knife Ulfric after the Stormcloak victory, because the other Jarls would tear eachother appart.

 

Finally, on the alliance with Hammerfell. Yes, both are largely warrior cultures (and by that we mean maintain large, psudo-military bodies, but the majority of their populations are still civilian) but there has, again, never been any indication that this has fostered any good blood with the Nords. Both the Dunmer and Orsimer are also warrior cultures, and they are amongst the most hated rivals of the Nords. In fact, the style of Nordic culture seems to lean more towards a mandated rivalry with other similar cultures, rather than respect or cooperation.

 

To start off, cheers, that compliment really made my morning. Now |I just have to hope I don't become egotistical :thumbsup:

 

Now, to the debate. It is possible for the Empire to overcome its issues, I agree. It would, however, take an Iron leader, like Versidue Shaide (I'm sure I spelt that wrong, I'm a bit pressed for time). To be specific, such a leader would have to ruthlessly put down any resistance through force of arms (possibly described as an invasion of his own lands, or some horrible purge), and even the economic issues could be fixed with a brutal taxation system. However, while all this is goin on, the Dominion could be able to strike, while the empire is contained is such violent reform (something the Akaviri potentates didn't have to worry to much about).

 

On the issue of the Thalmor's subversive tactics, I feel that it is indeed a characteristic of superior forces to attempt to subvert a weaker rival. This may be a very contraversial thing to say, but The United States has been doing it for ages. In the 80s (?, I'm feeling pressed for time), they were worried about Iran. They could have blow it to smithereens (as it wasn't aligned to either side of the Cold War), but instead, they put Sudaam Hussein in charge of Iraq to Keep them in check. Even now, while its rather undesputed that the US could overrun the DPRK (North Korea), they have instead opted to try and destroy it from within (and I'll give evidence, at the risk of sounding like some Kim Dynasty ass kisser, which I'm not). The severe famines, that everybody has been shunning them for, have been made significantly worse, becuase they can't power their electric pumps in the rural areas. Of Course, a Nuclear Reactor could help with that, but who is stopping that? (and yes, that sounds very controversial, i know I shouldn;t have bought current, real life issues into this, so please forgive me).

 

At the same time, Sun Tsu said in 'The Art of War', that it is best to avoid facing the enemy on the field if at all possible, regardless of strength. however, i will not lie, the Dominion can't be any superpowered force. They likely are, currently, equals with the Empire.

 

And finally, on the issue of Hammerfell, Luah Al-Skaven (yes, not representative of mainstream redguard beliefs), implied in her Journal that the Nords and Redguards, had significant respect for each other. While yes, she implies there is some bad blood between them, I still think the idea of 'My enemies enemy is my friend' will come into play.

 

PS. I'm on a road trip, so I may not have access to a computer for the next few days. I'll try and rejoin this conversation as soon as I can, but if I don't reply soon, its because I can't.

 

Another PS. Damn, i wasn;t intending to post twice. Sorry.

Edited November 24, 2012 by RighthandofSithis

[Lachdonin]

It is so nice to have a thoughtful opponent, and i somewhat lament the fact your responses will be so delayed... but in the intrests of catching things before they get drowned in other points...

 

A; Social reform and an end of revolutionist notions within the Empire would not, specificly, have to take the form of a purge (though it very well could). History is replete with instances of internal strife which were ended by turning attention towards an exterior force (and blaming it for the problem). Both the Mongol and the Hun empires were born out of such a tactic, as was the third Reich. It would be a simple thing to turn the revolutionary ideas within the Imperial provinces into a firestorm against the Domminion, using the start of another war (which we already know the Empire is gearing up for) as a means to direct the woes of the populace against the Thalmor. The same situation wouldn't work so easily within a newly succeded Skyrim, however, because it would lack the instituted propiganda machine. It could certianly turn their internal war for succession into a conflict of years or months, rather than decades, but it wouldn't have the same direct effect as in an established social system like the Empire. In other words, the restructuring of a post-Empire Skyrim would mean it would lack the united government required to convince the populace of the enemy's blame.

 

B; I would say that America's tactics during the cold war (being the support of subersives elemants in communist nations, or communist-opposed dictators in 'neutral' areas) was not so much them trying to discretely exert power over their lessers, but rather an attempt to prevent the spread of the 'Communist enemy' (China and the USSR, though the two were as likely to fight eachother as the States...). Iraq, Afganistan, Cambodia, Cuba etc were less about the country in question, and more about trying to subvert the intrests of an equal power. This makes it very similar tot he Empire / Domminion situation, where the Domminion, lacking the military power to actually take the Empire on in a straight fight, is trying to bleed its resources through inciting and maintaining civil unrest. In essance, Skyrim is the Empire's Afganistan, with the Domminion playing the role of the USA.

 

C; Whether or not Hammerfell would side with a free Skyrim depends largely on how future stories play out. We know they have an abiding hatred for the Thalmor, but i think it will depend entirely on where the Domminion takes the fight next. If Skyrim succedes, thus weakening the Empire sufficiently for the Domminion to gain the upper hand, Cyrodiil would be the next target. From there, it would be a simple thing to take the still recovering Morrowind (and we can be rather certian the Nords won't come to the aid of the Dunmer) and with it have access to vast amounts of Ebony (the penultimate warfare resource on Tamriel). With control of the vast agriculture of Cyrodiil, and the mines of Morrowind, it would be difficult then to win a war of attrition against the Domminion. And, the longer the Domminion stands, with access to those resources, the stronger it would become (remember that even the original Domminion didn't have access to Morrowinds mines of Cyrodiils agriculture) to the point where an alliance between Highrock, Hammerfell and Skyrim would be irrelivent anyway.

 

Then there is also the (as yet hypothetical and unsubstantiated) possibility that the Thalmor are literally trying to unmake the world. With control of Cyrodiil, they would have a clear route into Highrock, and then the Adamantium Tower, the last active tower on Tamriel. Regardless of how you look at it, the Domminion taking Cyrodiil is bad news, and the chances of that happening climb exponentially with the loss of Skyrim.

[Inquart]

Now, before i continue, i would like to thank you, Right Hand of Sithis, for your response. The fact that you even tried to address some of the issues raised, rather than falling back on rhetoric or supposition shows much better arguementation skills than i've come to expect in these discussions.

 

To start off, cheers, that compliment really made my morning. Now |I just have to hope I don't become egotistical :thumbsup:

 

It is so nice to have a thoughtful opponent, and i somewhat lament the fact your responses will be so delayed...

 

Ooh, aren't you two sweet? :D

 

Now, with that unnecessary sarcasm aside and being completely serious - it is of course always better to have a civilized argument than some pointless, petty quarrel, so if I may, I'm with you two on that one.

 

That said, I generally agree with your thoughts on the matter, Lachdonin; you've made some really good points over there. Thinking about it now, I'd say turning all and any revolutionary notions within Imperial provinces against the Dominion as a real enemy more or less guilty of all the misfortune might indeed be something the Empire needs to buy itself time and regain its former strength in an atmosphere of at least internal peace. One thing, however, is puzzling me: it might be a little off-topic, but do you think that in case of its eventual second invasion on Cyrodiil and the Empire itself, the Dominion would also attack the Black Marsh and Argonian-held parts of mainland Morrowind? I mean, with the Thalmor being Elven supremacists and all, wouldn't they want to "liberate" their Dunmer cousins from Argonian occupation and take over Morrowind - barren wasteland as it is - for themselves? I'd like to know your opinion on that, just out of curiosity.

Edited November 25, 2012 by Inquart