Nature of Nirn

[Lachdonin]

This comment really got me thinking about the relationship between Aedra, Daedra, Mortal Heroes, and "Soul Trapping." I think its more or less established that Lorkhan was "Soul Trapped" within Nirn, and Mortals in general, along with some Lesser "Aedra" who got sucked in. This made me think of mostly more questions that I don't think have definite answers.

 

Were the other Eight Divines soul trapped as well, perhaps on their own "planets"? Akatosh seems like one that can get out from time to time, but it would explain why the others aren't really present, yet still a part of Mortal life.

 

I don't know if we've seen an example of a Mortal Hero being "Soul Trapped." Is this what happened to Talos? What about Arkay, with his Quasi-Mortal status?

 

Have the Daedra been "Soul Trapped" in their own planes? How does this relate to Mankar Camoran's claim that Tamriel was another plane of Oblivion, and that Lorkhan was its Daedric Master?

 

Soul Gems come naturally from the "Earth Bones." Does the very nature of Soul Trapping itself have to do with Aedra, Daedra, and Those Who Came Before? It seems to be a repetitive cycle...

 

Edit: One last thought before I go to bed (yeah right :wallbash: ). I think its interesting to note that Lorkhan is considered to be a "Prisoner" of Nirn, possibly unjustly so. Each player character since Morrowind started as a Prisoner with no determinable crime or punishment, and an unexpected escape related to the Septim bloodline. And each one seems to be taking on more Faces each time around.

 

I thought it would be appropriate to break this off, so we didn't range too far from "Which PC is more OP", but it was too interesting to just ignore completely.

 

Now, first, the idea of Nirn as a Soul-Trap. We know that the Et'Ada who contributed to the creation of Mundus gave a borderline catastrophic amount of power to do so. Some managed to escape at the last moment, leaving pinpricks in the barrier between worlds (the Stars), some fused with the world its self, becomming the Earth Bones, and some became trapped, becomming mortals (the Aldmer). 8 Et'Ada, however, chose not to escape, though clearly had the power to do so, and seem to have retreated into their own pocket realms (the planets around Nirn). These are the Divines. Because the diminishment of their power came from creating Nirn, rather than their own domains, i would say that it is more Nirn that has soul-trapped them than their own domains. They can occationally project themselves onto Nirn (we saw several avatars in Morrowind, including Zenthar, Mara and Talos) but for the most part, Akatosh is the only one who has much to do with Mundus. Of course, this can be explained by the fact that he is the most intrinsicly linked to the mortal world, because he is time, but also because until Talos' ascention to godhood, half ot Akatosh was actually on Nirn (Akatosh and Lorkhan being one in the same, two sides of the same being... Think a 2 headed dragon and you're on the mostly right track).

 

We also know from some referances in Morrowind and Daggerfall that lesser Daedra (probably akin to the Et'Ada who eventually became the Earthbones and the Aldmer) become harder and harder to sustain the longer they are on Mundus. This is why they are usually summoned on an As-Needed basis by all but the most powerful wizzards, or Daedric Covens (who can feed them through the efforts of multipul mages). This, to me at least, implies that Mundus still has a draining effect on the immortal Et'ada who visit it, explaining why the Divines don't continue to dwel on Nirn its self, but rather retreated to their own domains to watch over it. They can't bypass Mundus and retreat to Aetherius because they are too weak, and they cannot cut through Mundus or lose even more of their power.

 

But i digress...The Daedra. We do know from conversations with Clavicus Vile, in the TES books, that it does take considerable power to maintain their domains. They do not, however, seem constrained by absolute values like you see on Nirn. Vile, weakened by Umbra, simply shrunk his domain to maintain his personal advantage over those inside his borders. In principal, i think, the Daedra could simply disolve their domains entirely, returning to a 'pure' status of power like the Divines had before they created Mundus. But without their domains, the Daedra have nowhere to keep the souls they collect, so it's more an issue of them soul-trapping others in their domains rather than them being trapped themselves.

 

Which of course brings an interesting note. We've been lead to beleive that all Daedra are inherently immortal. When you kill one, it is eventually reborn to continue whatever it is it was doing before. Amongst the Dremora, the ability to live in a single form for a long period of time seems to allow one to rise through the ranks, likely being reset if you're actually killed. The interesting not, however, is the mortal soul on Nirn. We know the souls of followers of the Divines are recycled through the Dreamsleave, the souls of Daedra worshipers pass into the realms of Oblivion, and some souls go directly into the Void, and anything soul-trapped ends up in the Soul Cairn. With so many souls being either contained or consumed, and the population of Nirn remaining steady or growing, it means that mortal souls have to be created, something which seems to be beyond Et'ada. That means the Mundus is literally and engine of creation...

 

Which suddenly brings me around to Arkay. If we assume that, most of the time, a soul is created at birth for mortal creatures, then Arkay's pervayance over birth and death has no place without Nirn. We also know that you can't "create" gods, but only mantle them (again, Talos simply mantled himself -Lorkhan- and took the vacant seat amongst the 9). As such, i tend to view the story of his mortal origins as A; a mortal Manteling Arkay and bring him to prominance within a particular culture, or B; the Et'ada who was Arkay shifting in his nature to accomidate a reality newly presented by the creation of Nirn. Either way, it's more alagory than literal, so i don't consider Arkay to be any more 'Mortal' than any of the other divines.

[Dudeman325]

Whew Nelly! That's some text to read. I promise I'll dive into this soon enough, if I can get in before too many other people say what I was going to say. :D

 

Edit Follows: Turns out I didn't need to say much, you've definitely got this down a lot better than I have! I'm done editing now. (I think!)

 

I thought it would be appropriate to break this off, so we didn't range too far from "Which PC is more OP", but it was too interesting to just ignore completely.

I thought about that, maybe I was just tired. But it all seems to tie together...

 

Because the diminishment of their power came from creating Nirn, rather than their own domains, i would say that it is more Nirn that has soul-trapped them than their own domains.

Not much I can add to this paragraph, except it ties into the theory that Nirn is essentially a giant Soul Gem (That is the Divines, who are Anu and Padomay, who came from the Void?, created by...?).

 

This, to me at least, implies that Mundus still has a draining effect on the immortal Et'ada who visit it, explaining why the Divines don't continue to dwel on Nirn its self, but rather retreated to their own domains to watch over it.

I think you have a Merish bias... :D

 

Kidding aside, I mostly agree, and see this as a good example of why the Thalmor are doing what they are trying to do in Skyrim (as well as what possibly happened to the Dwemer, unless they got sucked into Numidium or something, which isn't very clear.), but this raises yet another question without an easily definable answer. Did the Thalmor/Aldmeri "summon" Alduin? Their intelligence documents you can find say no, but all the evidence at least appears to be there... I at least think that they knowingly triggered the last couple steps of the "ritual."

 

...so it's more an issue of them soul-trapping others in their domains rather than them being trapped themselves.

Interesting, something I hadn't considered. This would make a lot of sense about the duality of the Daedra controlling their realm, yet partially "stuck" to it because it simply is them.

 

We've been lead to beleive that all Daedra are inherently immortal. When you kill one, it is eventually reborn to continue whatever it is it was doing before.

 

I really like this paragraph. All I will add is that its interesting that the Champion killed Jyggalag (who is essentially Sheogorath) to then become Sheogorath, who isn't quite the same Sheogorath because he is partially still also the Champion, as well as the Multiple Times Dead Jyggalag. So many circles...

 

And finally, on Arkay (it always ends with that guy...), who is Arkay "mantling" then? Is he an aspect of Orkey, or was he an Aedra born alongside mortal life? I think its established that he didn't exist before Mortals, and the other Aedra were around a long time before then... is Arkay almost directly mantling the concept of Mortality itself? Wouldn't it make sense for Talos to be just as much a mantle of all the Aedra (and maybe even all the way up to the GodHead), or at least Lorkhan and Arkay, if this were the case?

 

Edit 2: One final thought, I think this all really ties into how almost every Mortal can be the Shezzarine / Talos / Lorkhan / etc., whatever you want to call this "Oversoul," if they leave their past behind, while still learning the important tidbits from it, and think about how to make beneficial changes in Life for this "Oversoul" to continue doing what it has always done. Anu and Padomay, Stability with Change to make Something Amazing.

 

Edit 3: Last one, I swear... :wallbash:

I wonder if a discussion on the Nature of the Elder Scrolls, possibly in a semi-meta context, would be appropriate here. I just think its interesting how they manifest physically, and just what information they contain about Nirn and things Larger, but perhaps simply Nirn is the subject here...

 

Edit 4!!! Sleep soon...

This is related to my sig, and is a very meta thought. What if Heimskr is an NPC who figured out how to use the CK just so that he could re-add himself into Skyrim "again" to send Talos' message? Is he "Mantling" "Talos"?

"I breathe now in royalty and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you." (in case my sig changes, but I don't think so...)

Edited December 17, 2012 by Dudeman325

[UrgeNexus]

Small note on the structure of power so to speak, I noticed Anu and Padomay mentioned with a question as to who made the two:

 

At the very top, we have the Godhead. The dreamer. In the beginning the dreamer dreamt of Anu and Padomay (Also known as Sithis), the embodiments of Stasis and Chaos. From Anu and Padomay sprung the Et'Ada (Some of which we know as the Aedra and Daedra) and from there you seem to know how it went. Bottom line, everything is a dream, the Godhead is the dreamer.

 

On a somewhat related note, I want to adress something about SIthis/Padomay, it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine. A lot of people seem to believe the Dark Brotherhood know the first thing about Sithis, they don't, they can't. Sithis is not a he, Sithis is an it. It's the embodiment of the concept of chaos. Sithis doesn't care about the Brotherhood because it doesn't have the capability to care about anything. There are several theories on this, the only one that makes sense to me is the following:

 

Mephala is behind the Brotherhood. Mephala speaks to them as the Night Mother, Mephala tricks dead assassins into believing they are in the void with "The Dread Father", when they are actually in Mephala's realm. "But Urge, isn't Mephala the patron of the Morag Tong? Don't the Tong and Brotherhood hate eachother?" Yes, yes they do. Doesn't that seem like exactly the kind of thing Mephala, prince of lies, treachery, intrigue and secret murder, would do? My point is, when discussing Padomay, disregard anything the Brotherhood have to say on the matter, they are deluded psychopaths and in no way a reliable source of information on the metaphysics of the universe.

 

Sorry, it's kind of off topic I know, though not entirely.

 

As for Heimskr achieving CHIM. I doubt it, I also don't see him mantling Talos. He may be spreading his word but so do any other priests of Talos given the chance. Also, seeing as Talos is not one person but an amalgamation of several, I think mantling him would be somewhat difficult. Though it could also be easy, it may be enough to walk in the shoes of Tiber Septim individually for example. How would you do that? Conquering s*** basically, which Heimskr does rather little of.

[Lachdonin]

I think Heimskr is really just quoting scripture. A bishop may quote "Behold, he has become as one of us", supposedly directly quoting god, but he's not trying to BE God... Unless doing inappropriate things with altar boys.

 

I tend to agree that Padomay (and thus Sithis) is not a free thinking entity, but rather a primal force, and that the Dark Brotherhood are little more than deluded religious fanatics who use their on psychopathy as a basis for Sithis talking to them. That said, it is interesting to consider that, if Nirn really is an engine for the creation of souls, that the 'Will of Sithis' and sending souls into the void acts as a countermeasure, preventing an overflow of souls. It seems something perfectly aligned with Padomay's element, as the constant recycling of souls through the Dreamsleave creates a form of stasis, the same souls being used again and again. By consuming the souls in their entirty, Sithis forces the creation of new ones, ensuring a constant flow of change.

 

I like the idea that Mephala created both the Morag Tong and the Dark Brotherhood, pitting them against eachother simply because of the many convoluted plots and schemes it would create, but it's still something to consider otherwise.

 

Finally, i think discussing the nature of the Elder Scrolls, Oblivion, Mundus, Aetherius and even the Godhead would be perfectly appropriate here, as they are all part of what shapes and influances Nirn. Even if they weren't, their still a right fun discussion :D

[Dudeman325]

So many thoughts, so little time...

 

This thread definitely gave me a lot to think about so far... Thanks yall.

 

On the Nature of CHIM relating to Heimskr (and possibly all "People / Heroes" who devote their lives to "Dvines") I think sajuukhar9000 said it well in the Hero debate thread that's been going on...

 

Pure existence, CHIM, means one is without double, and one realizes that all things that make up a "absolute reality" are false, meaning one realizes reality is not set, it is something that can be bent and twisted to your whim, at your whim.

 

But sometimes you are just a rambling prophet, too...

 

I know Heimskr is just someone who is who he is in the moment, but his past has shaped his present, and his future is whatever he makes of it. Almost every NPC in the Elder Scrolls (which ties into a larger discussion that I'd like to try to organize my thoughts on) is associated with Divines or Daedra in some way, whether its something very simple like the Dibella worshipper in Riften, or something very complex like The Many Faced Talos. I like to think they are all "Mantling" parts of them in some way. It's their very character. I like to think the raving madmen of the Elder Scrolls who just shout at everyone, trying to get a simple message across, have a lot to say that people just aren't listening to. I don't think you have to literally "build an Empire" to make life a better place for what's around you.

 

Its all about making something that is Stable, but constantly Changing. On the subject of change...

 

I tend to agree that Padomay (and thus Sithis) is not a free thinking entity, but rather a primal force

 

I think this raises an interesting point about the Padomay/Sithis Dichotomy, in that they are the same "being," but they are their own being as well. The Dark Brotherhood doesn't worship Padomay, but Sithis specifically, thus making Sithis into a separate-but-same (and ever changing, more or less) being. A being that requires Stability to create a Mortal World.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Dudeman325

[UrgeNexus]

First, a clarifaction. When suggesting people head over to /r/teslore I did not mean to say that lore shouldn't be discussed here, I like discussing lore and of course I'd love to do so here.

 

I think this raises an interesting point about the Padomay/Sithis Dichotomy, in that they are the same "being," but they are their own being as well. The Dark Brotherhood doesn't worship Padomay, but Sithis specifically, thus making Sithis into a separate-but-same (and ever changing, more or less) being. A being that requires Stability to create a Mortal World.

Well, that's debatable. While the TES universe is Mythopoeic (Sufficient belief may make something true), it takes a very large number of utterly convinced believers to make any real difference. A good example of this is the Thalmor's efforts to outlaw Talos worship, if nobody believes in Talos, there won't be a Talos. The Brotherhood simply is not large enough, especially during the 4th Era and the number of people outside the Brotherhood who share their beliefs are rare at best.

 

When it comes to mantling, yeah, anyone can mantle an Aedra/Daedra if they want to or even unknowingly. That being said, it takes a lot more than reciting scripture and your average person doesn't know what mantling is to begin with. I believe Vivec said (Don't quote me on that, it could have been someone else) "Walk like them until they must walk like you." You need to behave as the one you're mantling would. Also note the word "must", you don't need the consent of whatever god you wish to mantle in order to do so. In order to mantle Talos, the best way would be to behave as Tiber Septim, Wulfharth or Zurin Arctus did when they were mortal (I believe those are the three people that make up the Oversoul that is Talos. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.), conquering Tamriel and forging your own Empire like Tiber did would be a good way for example.

 

Short note on the subject of CHIM. You don't need to devote yourself to the Divines to learn of or achieve it. Vivec first learned of the concept from Molag Bal, if I remember correctly. The most "straight forward" way to learn of it would be to read the 36 Lessons of Vivec and Mankar Camoran's notes on the Mysterium Xarxes, otherwise I don't know of any ways for regular folk in Tamriel to even learn of the concept at all, possibly communing with Molag Bal or Hermaeus Mora, though they would have no reason to tell you and you would have no reason to ask them without prior knowledge of it's existance.

[Lachdonin]

the best way would be to behave as Tiber Septim, Wulfharth or Zurin Arctus did when they were mortal (I believe those are the three people that make up the Oversoul that is Talos. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

There are more, though the names escape me at the moment... These three, however, were the ones instrumental in creating a new divinity to replace the severed Heart of Lorkhan (since all 3 are aspects of Lorkhan) and are thus, in my mind, the most imporant ones.

 

I'd also like to note that the Daedra and the Divines likely don't understand CHIM either, even if familiar with the concepts. We know of at least one incedent where a divine actually learned of the Tower and utterly failed to comprehend it. Because of his failure (largely, i think, because Divine entites are bound by a particular nature and thus unable to comprehend the multi-faceted aspects of CHIM) Lorkhan conceived of Mundus.

 

In following with the idea that it is the dogmatic nature of the Divine that prevents the comprehension of CHIM, i therefor think that it was part of the whole POINT of Mundus to strip the Et'Ada of their divinity, which is probably why the 8 turned against the 9th in the end.

[UrgeNexus]

the best way would be to behave as Tiber Septim, Wulfharth or Zurin Arctus did when they were mortal (I believe those are the three people that make up the Oversoul that is Talos. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

There are more, though the names escape me at the moment... These three, however, were the ones instrumental in creating a new divinity to replace the severed Heart of Lorkhan (since all 3 are aspects of Lorkhan) and are thus, in my mind, the most imporant ones.

 

I'd also like to note that the Daedra and the Divines likely don't understand CHIM either, even if familiar with the concepts. We know of at least one incedent where a divine actually learned of the Tower and utterly failed to comprehend it. Because of his failure (largely, i think, because Divine entites are bound by a particular nature and thus unable to comprehend the multi-faceted aspects of CHIM) Lorkhan conceived of Mundus.

 

In following with the idea that it is the dogmatic nature of the Divine that prevents the comprehension of CHIM, i therefor think that it was part of the whole POINT of Mundus to strip the Et'Ada of their divinity, which is probably why the 8 turned against the 9th in the end.

Correct me if I completely misunderstood your post, but I was under the impression that Lorkhan did understand it and created Mundus with the intention of letting (Or forcing, depending on how you view Lorkhan) everyone understand and attain CHIM. Lorkhan is definitely aligned with Padomay, unlike the other Divines who are mostly Anuic in nature. This padomaic (chaotic) alignment would help in understanding new concepts, as chaos is by it's very nature change.

 

I can't remember the exact quote, but it goes something like this. "Lorkhan viewed the tower sideways, and uttered his first word, I." Thus Lorkhan became aware of his individuality, yet he also knew from before that he was one with everything something that suggests an ability to comprehend new concepts and change accordingly. As Lorkhan did not Zero-Sum the only remaining conclusion is that he achieved CHIM.

[Dudeman325]

Wow, this became a lot more than I was prepared to contend with. I might have to read for a while, but I'll try to add a few questions here and there, and maybe my own perspective.

 

Great thread!

 

Edit: Does anyone know a good source for things like this? I suppose you just have to get stuck in it. All the wiki's I've found leave a lot of stuff out, and The Imperial Library can be really confusing due to its layout, and that the Pocket Guide seems kind of dated.

 

I'll admit I never played Morrowind much besides stealing things in the city you took the package to, and Oblivion was just generic fantasy to me (even though I see so much in it now, with new eyes, I don't really feel like playing it again), but Skyrim really got me hooked into the lore, and I feel like I'm just scratching the surface.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Dudeman325

[CasperTheLich]

 

I'll admit I never played Morrowind much besides stealing things in the city you took the package to, and Oblivion was just generic fantasy to me (even though I see so much in it now, with new eyes, I don't really feel like playing it again), but Skyrim really got me hooked into the lore, and I feel like I'm just scratching the surface.

 

 

i have to say that happened to me with tesII daggerfall, i was far too young to enjoy it for what it was, and i think even when i started playing morrowind i was still a tad too young to enjoy it fully. though it was still the best TES game to me. i loved morrowind. *sigh*

 

now on to the topic at hand...

hmmm, i really don't know where to start, or what i want to say. so much has already been laid out already. :wallbash: