Model Crits?

[Skree000]

Model wise, it looks alright from here!

 

Make sure there are no 5-sided (or greater) polygons, also known as N-gons, these do get triangulated by the game engine, but at the cost of performance.

Quads or Tris are optimal

 

 

Design wise it looks alright too. The hilt seems just a little bit uninspired, but its hard to tell exactly what you had in mind without a texture on it. Textures after all do add alot to a model.

 

You might want to add another edge loop to the pommel, its a pretty big jagged spike, and stands out as lacking some detail in the silhouette (as i can imagine it). Unless this was the intention, a big stabby spike on the base of the weapon, which is cool too.

 

One of the most important parts of modelling is balance. Making sure each area of your object is paid equal attention and there are not only no waste polys, but no areas that are screaming for MORE detail ;)

 

Since you have a nice low poly weapon I would consider this your Base mesh, and only go upwards from here. Try importing the mesh into Mudbox or Zbrush and fiddle around, perhaps you can edge an ivy pattern along the blade, or give some really cool details along the grip where youd imagine some wrapped leather straps, etc.

Lots of potential here! Once you do that you can use that high poly and bake your normals and you'll be set.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing how this progresses. The poly count does indeed look uber low, so you probably have quite alot of polys to spare if you want to add things, perhaps a more ornate hilt or pommel, etc. But that all depends on many things including your intentions for the weapon and your own design plans if you modelled it from such :)

 

Keep it up.

[ManIndaHat]

i HAD the 30 day trial of zbrush and it seemed pretty good. I haven't heard of mudbox so i'll try that if its free or the trial if not.

[Skree000]

if you can somehow get your hands on it, youll be glad you did :)

 

Mudbox is now owned by Autodesk, same company that now owns both 3d Studio Max and Maya. Autodesk seems to be buying everything up :)

 

Hopefully Mudbox will eventually be a plugin for max :)

 

Mudbox 2 is coming out very soon and will blow Zbrush out of the water, (if its not out already i havent really been keeping track). So Stay tuned.

[LHammonds]

I hear that the latest version of Adobe Photoshop now has a 3D Painting tool so you can paint your textures directly on your model. If this is the case, the painful process of doing UV Maps might go away or at least minimize our worries to just making sure everything is proportional. As it stands right now, it is a painful balance between the UV Map and the Texture. The better laid out the UV Map, the more difficult it is for the texture artist to do their work in 2D.

 

I mention this because your next phase in this model will be the UV Map once you are happy with the model design. You might be able to download a trial version but I am not sure if it would have the 3D Painting component or not. I just ordered a copy for our marketing department (actually an entire Adobe bundle with Premiere too) and will be able to check it out while I help her get acquainted with it. hehehe.

 

Examples: Take a look how a 3D world map would need to be skewed the better the proportions on the UV Map are done...which also creates more seams:

 

PIC #1 - Easy to place a texture of the world on the 2D UV Map but there will be stretch/squish marks.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee11/Conan_Lon/Blender/UVMap_Circle1.jpg

 

PIC #2 - Texture a bit more difficult to create with an additional seam but better proportions.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee11/Conan_Lon/Blender/UVMap_Circle2.jpg

 

PIC #3 - Texture now has multiple seams to deal with but if done correctly, there will be minimal stretch/squishing in the texture.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee11/Conan_Lon/Blender/UVMap_Circle3.jpg

 

LHammonds

[ManIndaHat]

well, im using mudbox and i exported it as a .obj. Which somehow made a gap in my model because as a .blend it renders with no holes. Also its subdividing everything so it can work, making an ungodly amount of polys. First sub, 2.3k.... there's go the poly count huh

Not sure if this is gunna work, it can't subdivide past level2, it jsut errors out, i might have to A0 try to add details in blender ;( b) keep trying mudbox or c) leave it the way it is and move on to texturing

:confused:

[Skree000]

Ok a few things here :)

 

First, the 3d painting thing in Photoshop is... kinda 'meh'. We had it at work as soon as we heard that as well, and it paled in comparison to Maxon's Bodypaint 3d (now up to release 4d).

 

It is very limited and is very awkward. Adobe has the right idea but it is still so new in its infancy that its pretty clumsy and more trouble than its worth.

 

i would HIGHLY reccomend Bodypaint 3d for anyone wishing an easier time painting their textures on. Even if you do photo realistic textures, Bodypaint is the #1 tool for fixing seams. You can also customize it with all your Photoshop and/or 3d package keyboard shortcuts too, mine works just like Max and photoshop at the same time.

 

It uses the Photoshop layers system completely including blending modes, everything photoshop supports.

 

I considered myself a decent texture artist before I found Bodypaint... but... now... I Just cant believe how i survived without it. (My old studio swears by it and teach all new recruits how to use the program. its quite simple)

 

(Also reccomend a little app called Roadkill for unwrapping. Really makes things super fast 8-))

 

 

 

Ok. now.. Man_in_the_hat. Apparently I didnt explain myself here..

 

Ok after you create your model in 3d, your next step is to UV-Unwrap it so that you can texture it

 

UV is the texture version of X and Y. Basically Unwrapping is like peeling an orange, you need to take off the skin of the object and lay it flat before you can paint on it.

 

 

 

Even programs (like Bodypaint) That allow you to paint Directly on the model will NOT help you UNLESS you properly UV Unwrap your model.

 

Basically the process involves choosing along which edges you want your 'seams' to be. Because, as you can see above, even with a simple shape like a sphere, you have to split the shape SOMEWHERE and make some seams if you want to flatten your shape.

 

Ground rules are that Less seams = better, but it also depends on the design of your object. We usually dont want seams to show, so we hide them in unsightly places, ie. inner thighs or underarms on player models, etc.

 

 

 

Easiest way to unwrap your model is to (in your 3d package) apply a UV Unwrap modifier, then open up Roadkill (a very simple freee application you can download).

 

Once in roadkill you can with one or two clicks, efficiently split up your unwrap and it will automatically flatten the model as best as it can, it can also show stretch values in color, so for example, highly stretched areas that will look distorted on the texture appear in red, whereas non-stretched GOOd areas appear green color.

 

 

This might all be alot to take in right now, but when it comes down to it, You need to find a way to make your 3d object into a 2d picture. We do that by unfolding the wireframe.

 

 

 

-

 

 

There are many handy tutorials on UV unwrapping on the internet, so I wont try to make a quick one when there are some good ones out there you can probably find easier on google, etc.

 

 

Oh yeah, about Mudbox and Zbrush, those are Hi-poly modelling applications, intended for generating a Hi-Poly detailed model from a Low poly one.

Those programs are useless unless the model is first unwrapped. With those programs we create a 'normal map' which gets applied to a model and simulates extra details that arent actually modelled in with polygons, since polygons are expensive for a computer to handle, and most of it can be faked with a good normal map anyways.

 

Most normal map production pipelines go something like this:

 

Create Low Poly Model

Unwrap Low Poly Model

Import Low Poly into Zbrush/Mudbox

Create Hi Poly Model

Export Normal Map from Zbrush/Mudbox

Apply Normal Map to Low Poly Model

Create Diffuse/Specular/Gloss/Glow maps (Photoshop, etc)

Apply all maps to model and preview in 3d package (Max/Maya/Blender)

Import model and texture maps into Engine

Assemble texture maps into a shader in engine

Apply shader to model

 

The yellow section applies mainly if the model is 'organic' (ie. fleshy... sinuous... not made of hard metal etc.)

Non Organic (hard surface) models can get their normal maps made in the 3d package using Render-To-Texture, etc. (Max)

 

The High poly modelling software is not designed to work with a model that will appear as the final product, they only allow you to expand upon your low poly with a Hi-poly version that is used ONLY to generate normal maps.

 

For example, the game Gears of War features characters with around 10-14k polygons (20-28k tris) and that is their LOW-Poly Model. That is considered 'insanely high-poly' for a low poly model. Most game studios will not let poly counts get over about 15k Triangles (8-9k polys max) for a single character, but it all depends on the game itself. Intensive environmentally heavy games that require massive poly counts on buildings etc, mean polys will be sacrificed from characters and weapons etc.

 

Anyways, those Gears of War models used HI-Poly source models to generate normal maps, each had Several Million polygons.

These multi-million poly models only exist in Zbrush or Mudbox, since they cant even be properly exported without a supercomputer, or Polycruncher applications that bring them down to a more reasonable level to import into a 3d package such as Max or Maya. Luckily Zbrush and Mudbox can generate or 'bake' a normal map right inside the program, so you dont have to export the hi-poly into your 3d package to work with it.

 

Sorry if this is all confusing, when I first learned unwrapping i was still 'wrapping' my head around it all before i could even begin to wonder what all the terminology means :)

[LHammonds]

That is a great overview Skree000, thanks for taking the time to write it up.

 

As for the RoadKill UV Tool, it might be mentioned that it is actually the UV tool from Blender so any Blender users out there can simply pass that tool on by since the reason it exists is to allow people to use the UV unwrapping engine with other 3D modeling tools (Maya, 3ds max).

 

EDIT: Also note that RoadKill is based on an older version of Blender. The Apricot build of Blender included GLSL and this tutorial shows how you can adjust a UV Map to fit pre-existing images as well as combine those "profile" images into a single texture and have the UV Map attached to it to achieve VERY nice results. This tutorial shows how various profile images of a persons head was applied to a model. Amazing stuff (well, to me anyways)

 

LHammonds

[ManIndaHat]

ok, so. I "unwrap" the UV, THEN i import it into mudbox? And also, im not really doing anything organic, i just kinda wanted a dragon shape on the flat of the blade maybe, and maybe work on making the hawk\bird\falcon hilt thing look a bit better (even tho i'm not sure how i would do that). Also, i will publish it as a .blend or .obj is anyone wants to take a look at it or thinks they could add a bit to it.

[Skree000]

I would rough out a low poly version of the hawk shape hilt in your 3d package, real rough and low poly, but basically the same shape as what you want.

 

Then throw that into mudbox and subdivide it, and work with all the zillions of polygons you made to create a more detailed version

 

 

And yes you have to UV unwrap your models first or mudbox wont be able to do anything for you :) Normal map creation requires an unwrapped low poly base mesh to start with

[LHammonds]

Here is another overview I thought was helpful.

 

It was posted by Pixhell666 at the official forums which is now archived into Oblivion but I saved the text before it was purged:

 

Author: Pixhell666 - http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?showuser=424480

Source: http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.ph...&p=11534744

Date: 1/4/2008

From a professional game development standpoint ZBrush and MudBox are used often (if not always) on "Next-Gen" games (essentially anything with a normal map). There are a few ways you can use these tools in your pipeline, but as it's been stated before it's pretty much always in conjunction with another full 3D application.

 

My ZBrush / MudBox Art Pipeline

===============================

 

- Initial Model

Rough Low poly - Mid poly model in 3DS Max (quads). I use PolyBoost (http://www.polyboost.com/) often to rough things out quickly, and recently in conjunction with PolySpeed (http://www.polyspeed3d.com/).

 

- Rough UV Layout

Rough UV layout in Max or sometimes I use UV Layout (http://www.uvlayout.com/). This can be spread all over, not squared, etc. It's purpose is for texture/material and Map baking etc. into and out of ZBrush to other UVs or another Mesh (won't be used in game).

 

- Export/Import to ZBrush or MudBox

Detail as you want, create as many textures as you want, make the model as big and detailed as you want. 2-5 million polys is what I've seen most of the time and as high as 7-9 million. If you have a very massive model like that you may have to break it into pieces. I've also seen models require to be broken into segments due to animation bone limits, and the like.

 

- The Real Mesh

Back in 3DS Max I now use PolyBoost and PolySpeed again to form a low poly cage to my now multimillion poly mesh. This is pretty quick, Silo (http://www.nevercenter.com/) also has this feature and it's pretty easy to use, you can almost build your entire mesh just by waving your mouse around on the screen (almost). These are often referred to as "Topology Tools". I know people who only use Silo and ZBrush together as well, it works great. New UVs need to be created for your new low poly mesh. Some applications even have high > low poly UV conversion/mapping tools.

 

- Additional Maps

If I need additional maps I may bake out specular color maps from 3DS Max. I usually bake normal, displacement, ambient occulsion and similar maps out of XSI as it has delivered the best results from my experience. I will also bring in baked to texture materials from ZBrush sometimes. I also often paint textures ZBrush as well (skin materials and brushes are nice and render to texture pretty well).

 

- 2D Texturing

Anything else needed I touch up, create, finish off in Photoshop. Filter Forge (http://www.filterforge.com/), CrazyBump (http://www.crazybump.com/), ImageSynth (http://www.luxology.com/whatismodo/imageSynth.aspx), and MapZone (http://www.mapzoneeditor.com/) are also nice to use as well.

 

You can replace 3DS Max here with any other 3D package (Maya, Silo, Modo, XSI, Blender) and ZBrush with MudBox, and get the same/similar results. Also as stated above you'll probably not be using ZBrush to create your low poly meshes. I have used ZSpheres before just to try it out and you will spend more time fixing up mesh flow and the like than you will save if you had just done it from scratch. Polyboost and Topology tools in a lot of modern 3D applications make this stuff superfast (nurbs > topology tool = lowpoly mesh, etc. there are a lot of angles of attack).

 

Also something that isn't talked about a lot is something called Kit Bashing (this is essentially what you're doing when you cut and past different parts of NIFs together to make new armor, etc.). This is a term borrowed from real modeling (plastic and glue), to describe taking existing mesh pieces you might have laying around and putting them together to form a new model. This isn't by any means revolutionary nor an idea that hasn't been spoken of before. But there are a lot of purists out there that would lead you to believe that everytime you make a model you should do everything from scratch. Some advice ... if you want to work in games, movies, etc. learn to Kit Bash. Build up your own library of hands, heads, torso's, armor bits, belts, buckles, gloves, hands (make sure they're your own or liscense/royalty free, don't steal them!). There is no reason to build a hand from scratch everytime you model a new character ... Kit Bashing will make you a more efficient and faster modeller. Knowing how to build these things from scratch is important and you should do it from time to time just to keep yourself sharp, but it's not essential to create everything from scratch on every model you create. Blur Studios and Epic Games both use Kit Bashing in their art pipelines (as noted in interviews and tutorial dvds).

 

Anywho ... this is just how I do things. Maybe someone will find something in my incoherent ramblings useful.