Why you should join the Stormcloaks.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

That would be interesting. Fun fact. William Wallace wore the skin of his fallen enemies as a belt. Gross and cool.

[Roviakin71]

Empire relinquished all rights to the province because Hammerfell refused to accept the terms of the White Gold Concordat. Hammerfell kept fighting for 5 more years after that before a treaty between them and the Thalmor - which was nowhere near as bad as what they would have had to accept to be a willing Empire participant.

 

Empire sold it's two most important allies in terms of fielding a strong Imperial army down the river.

The only reason why the Redguards in Hammerfall managed to successfully drive the Aldmeri Dominion out of Hammerfell, is because The Dominion had equally exhausted its military strength as much as the Empire's Imperial Legion were depleted.

[Shubal]

The Stormcloaks threaten the sale of Adult toys in Riften, fine lingerie in Solitude and the babes in the luxury suite, they must be stopped!

[fraquar]

 

Empire relinquished all rights to the province because Hammerfell refused to accept the terms of the White Gold Concordat. Hammerfell kept fighting for 5 more years after that before a treaty between them and the Thalmor - which was nowhere near as bad as what they would have had to accept to be a willing Empire participant.

 

Empire sold it's two most important allies in terms of fielding a strong Imperial army down the river.

The only reason why the Redguards in Hammerfall managed to successfully drive the Aldmeri Dominion out of Hammerfell, is because The Dominion had equally exhausted its military strength as much as the Empire's Imperial Legion were depleted.

Redguards fought a depleted AD to a draw, if they would have had Imperial backing and the fresh troops from Skyrim they probably defeat the Thalmor. The Cyrodill legions were the ones that were depleted, the rest of the Empires legions still were able to carry on the fight - as the Redguards showed.

 

Empire just had jelly for a backbone and quit once they got the Imperial City liberated - and sold their other two allies down the river. They were in no position where they had to accept whatever the Thalmor wanted.

 

[imperistan]

There's also the fact that Hammerfel (Hammerfel isn't just made up of Reguards people!) also fought them to that draw within 5 years (though the sources on it actually indicate that the stalemate occurred earlier in that 5 years and after 5 years both just gave up and made peace).

 

Frankly, if you're supposedly able to take on the rest of Tamriel, and you can't defeat a single province (Whose army consists of a single, fractured Legion and militia) after 5 years, then you are in no way going to take on the rest of Tamriel without it being complete suicide within 20-25 years (IE, the time it takes to get to Skyrim's events).

[Jason2112]

Are we playing the same game ... Stormcloaks are lames to the wolves to vs the Imperials.

But the Imperials are messed up by working with the Elfs. The real problem is the Elfs.

The Stormcloaks and Imperials are playing right into the Elfs hands as the story unfolds.

Oldest trick in the book have your enemies kill each other off then wipe out what's left.

 

You're Dragonborn ... Death to the Elfs!!! ... Restore balance.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

First of all it's Elves.

 

Secondly If you actually take the time and read the Dossier the Thalmor DON'T want a Stormcloak Victory. It only benefits them if the war continues at the stalemate.

 

You have to defeat your lesser self before you can defeat your enemy simply because that very lesser self will become a hindrance. The De Facto rule of thumb applies. The Stormcloaks are right.

[breakwind]

I reckon that Thalmor wouldn't mind a Stormcloak victory. With a weakened Skyrim, exhausted troops...many wounded and tired of fighting Stormcloak soldiers just wanting to go back to their homes, it would be easy for the Thalmor, who have been growing in strength, to bring in troops via the north west coast..plus who would stop them marching through Imperial lands to get to Skyrim... and take Skyrim. Who would help the Stormcloaks? Not the Imperials thats for sure. And what better place for them to start their genocide of men than the place men first occupied in Tamriel? The home of Talos worship

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

The question of course is, whether it is right or wrong for a people to fight for their right to hold onto their own identity. A person can make all the arguments they want about any other issue, but if you do not address this issue. If a person is unable to say I'm pro-Imperial and as such I agree that it is wrong for -any- group to fight for it's right to fight to protect it's own culture ( I'm not just talking about Nords here, I'm talking about anyone. If you say it isn't right for Skyrim, then it wasn't right for Hammerfell either, and should this game have taken place in High Rock, or Orsinium ( orc place it's early for me and I can't remember the name ) that it isn't right for the Orcs or the Bretons either. Essentially you have to come right out and say " It isn't right for anyone to be anything but what the Imperials want them to be ) If you can't agree to that, then you -can't- be pro-Imperial, because being pro-Imperial means that you are -exactly- that, you can't have one without the other. It would be like saying I'm for with the United Nations so long as everyone acts like they are Americans. The two are mutually exclusive.



So here's the deal for the pro-Imperial folks, you simply cannot single out the Nords ( claims of racism, etc, don't care it may be -all- true but it doesn't matter, if you want them to change and accept Imperial dictate and thus stop fighting for their culture and land, then you have to do the same for every other Imperial citizen regardless of Race. Stop worshiping your Gods Mr. Orc because frankly it's not what the Imperials do and they said the Nords shouldn't do it, so you shouldn't be allowed to do it either ) I get really tired of people talking about Nord this and Nord that, because it isn't about the Nords it's about whether or not people have the right to fight for their culture and land.



Little has been said about whether or not Hammerfell has the right too, it did, and it won, and since it's over no one really gives it much thought. However what they did was rebel ( it's even called the Hammerfell rebellion in the lore, hell I think you can find a book in the game called exactly that ). So it comes down to this, the Nords either have a right to fight ( not even to necessarily succeed, but a right to fight ) for their culture and homes, or they don't. If you're pro-Imperial you believe they don't, because that's what the Imperials say, you can't half-measure it and say " Well they have the right to fight, but unfortunately if they succeed this or that will happen so we can't allow them too " if you're pro-Imperial then follow the Imperial line.



I think that's what I find most infuriating with pro-Imp's honestly you want to divide up the pro-Imp party line. With the pro-Stormcloaks we might say " No we don't agree 100% with Ulfric's attitude, no we don't agree 100% with this or that aspect of the way the war was conducted ( Siege of Whiterun for example ) but the one thing we can -all- say is we agree in the cause. We agree that Nords are a race with their own culture, their own traditions, their own religion, and their own lands, and that they have a right to fight for them. " This solidifies the pro-Storm side. The pro-Imp side is all over the map with it's opinions on to -why- they are pro-Imp but they never come out and say they toe the party line and say " No, we do not agree that the Nords have a right to rebel, even if it is to protect their culture, religion, traditions, and land." and I'm sorry Pro-Imp's no matter what way you try to rectify it ( It's one of the reason I feel for Rikke, the Battle-Born's, Balgruuf and the list goes on ) once the WGC was signed, the Nord way of life was under attack. Hell if you go with the Imperial guy out of Helgen one of the things his Uncle says right off the bat is " There was a time when everyone home had their little statue of Talos and then the Thalmor came etc etc " essentially what he's saying there is this " There was a time when we were allowed to practice our culture in peace, but after the WGC was signed the Empire invited the Thalmor in and they denied us this aspect of our culture "



That's pretty much as clear an attack on someone's culture as I've ever seen, the classic " conversion at the end of the sword " aspect of Crusader fame. It's hard to get a clearer attack on a people's culture and heritage than when people kill you for following it.



So here's the deal, I'll accept -anyone- who want's to be pro-Imp so long as they say, straight up and no BS surrounding it " I agree that it is necessary to attack and destroy the culture of the Nords or -anyone else- to preserve the Empire, and that the Nords do not in fact have a right to fight to protect their culture, and if they do fight to protect their culture I will kill them " If you can come right out and say that, flat out, then I'll go " OK, you're pro-Imp, and as much as I disagree with you, I'll accept that about you " you can then proceed from there to give all your reasons why you think it's the best path, and I'll listen to them.



If you won't admit to the above though, I really am not interested your reasons likewise if you're on the pro-Storm side and you're not willing to say " I believe that a person has the right to fight and kill to protect it's traditions and culture, including slaughtering those who may not have a stake in the fight should they get in my way, that I believe that a right of a people to protect their heritage is paramount to all other considerations, and regardless of the cost, is worth the cost. Including things that individually I find repugnant " I don't buy your pro-Storm arguments and I don't want to hear the reasons why.



War is -not- pretty, and that's just a fact, so I'll come out and say it.



I don't like it, but I see it as necessary, for Whiterun to be sacked, with all the horror that comes to a city when it's walls are breached and soldiers storm into the streets filled with civilians.



I don't like it, but I see it as necessary, to support the most effective war leader that steps forward regardless of their own personal faults in other areas. Since Ulfric is that person, I accept his racism, his ambition no how bloody, and any other negative aspect of his personality. I would have supported William Wallace too, and this is a guy that History has recorded as literally skinning the men he killed and then tanning that skin and making it into a belt. This is historical fact, and I'd have followed a guy who wore human-skin belts. Ulfric isn't that bad relatively.



I don't like it, but I accept -anything- short of denying another people the right to their own culture by force of arms that is necessary to protect the Nords heritage and culture. No matter how bad it is. The right of the Nords to defend their own culture and heritage supersedes all else in Skyrim.



There I've said it, I've taken the pledge, I'm a Stormcloak. Now let's see the pro-Imp people say the same, as I've listed above. I want to see pro-Imp's say " No, Nords do not have a right to their culture and heritage " If I don't see it, I'm not interested in their reasons for being pro-Imp because frankly they've missed the boat. There are certain things that you have to be before you can claim to be from a group. I'm not black so I'm not a member of the Black Panthers, because I miss one of the big requirements in belonging to that group ( just an example, for god's sake no one give me an opinion on what they think of that statement, I truly don't care ). So whatever your argument is for being pro-Imp I want people to own up to the very -basics- of being pro-Imp before they go on with the rest of their reasons.



If you can't accept the basics I'm not interested in the abstract, and for the longest time now I've had to go " Well I accept both the basics and the more personal reasons to be a Stormcloak " and had to defend that position from the " Well I can see all the reasons not to be pro-Imp but there is -this particular- reason to be pro-Imp and that's why I am ". It simply isn't a fair fight for us Stormcloaks to have to defend our positions while accepting all the negative aspects that come along with it from Imperials who only give one reason for being Imperial but don't jump in with all the negative parts of being an Imperial.



It's one reason I retired from this forum, because I started getting really frustrated with people not willing to go " I'm an Imperial and I'm proud of it! Down with Nordic culture and identity! " because if you don't believe that, if you don't think that's the best thing, then frankly you're an Imperial on paper only. You may regret the necessity for it, but it's come to that. To be an Imperial is to stand against the Nords right to fight for their culture and traditions, and if you think it's not then you don't understand what's happening in Skyrim. What did you think if the Imperials won then all the reasons the Nords rebelled in the first place would go away? That all of a sudden the Imperials would go " Well, now that we've won let's give you all the things you were fighting for in the first place ". Bleh.



So let's hear it from the Imperials, write your belief that you think the Nords shouldn't be allowed to fight for their culture and traditions, write that you believe that if necessary the Nordic traditions and culture should be destroyed in order to preserve the empire, because if you don't think that, then you aren't an Imperial. The key words being " if necessary " because you're halfway there by siding with the Imperials, because if you're willing to fight against their right to rebel in defense of their culture and traditions, the next step -could- be to eradicate that culture and those traditions, because why not, after all if you fight against their right to fight for it, you might as well fight to destroy it all together.



Just accept that that's what you're fighting against, you're looking a Nord in the eye and saying " No, you don't have the right to fight for this " you can add your " and here's why " after that, but if you don't begin your sentence with that, I'm just not interested in what comes after.



Listen, I'm tired and it's not even noon now, and I've been harsh in this post but frankly I'm so very very very tired of going over the same damn ground over and over again. I'm a Stormcloak, yes, and I accept the downsides of taking that path.



The Imperials by and large however -never- own up to the downsides. They aren't willing to admit the horror they bring to the table, but are really quick to bring up all the negative things that being a Stormcloak means. Well here's the negative thing about being an Imperial, you're fighting against people's right to have their own culture and traditions. You're -oppressing- people, you're telling them they don't have a right to their traditions and culture. That's a -fact-, whatever else may be a " good " thing about being an Imperial, you first and foremost have to admit to yourself and to the world that you're first and foremost an oppressor. That's just a simple fact, and if an Imperial can't own up to that, I'm just not going to discuss anything else with them, I'm too tired to do so, as I said before I retired from this thread ( and took a hiatus from the game even ) due to in part having to argue my points from the position of a Stormcloak who accepts that all isn't shiny and righteous in my camp, but the people who argued against me liked to pretend it -was- all shiny and pretty in theirs.

[Seeker17281]

<p>I usually play Orcs and Dark Elves, though upon occasion I'll play one of the other races...this across the various TES titles though never the Argonians.  Just never got the whole...lizard thing.  At first when I played, I was "pissed" at how I was dragged into a execution guilty without benefit of a trial of any sort.  I didn't particularly care what this Ulfric fellow with the rag across his face had done (and asked...why in the hell doesn't he just reach up and pull that bandana down?  Even if it was fiercely tight, his hands are *infront* of him...if he had some sort of super voice...go down fighting maybe?)  So my Dunmer thought "Putz" even as he met the bitchy Imperial who was eager to see my head chopped off.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>At first I ran with the Stormcloak guy, went to town, thinking the entire time that the Imperials were going to regret treating me like some oxen drawn to slaughter.  But the more I interacted with pro-Stormcloak Nords and their racist attitudes, the less I wanted to do with them. I didn't even get to Ulfric, by the time I hit Whiterun and saw what they had done with Dunmer.  Then I run into the Thallmor who's arrogance ticked me off as well.  At this point my opinion was...everyone just needs to die.  They all suck.  So I joined the Dark Brotherhood and figured I might as well get paid to take these twits out...until I had to go to Winterfall and decided the Mages were mostly ok, but yeah...Nords, Thallmors, Imperials, all bullies who deserved as much of a sense of compassion and mercy as they showed others.  Then I run into the Blades and they want to off Parth?  WTF?  Is this entire region filled with (expletive deleted)???  </p>

<p> </p>

<p>Since then of course, I've played several characters but I always have this internal dialogue of which side do I support?  I don't like either one of them really, I get what they both believe in, and disagree with the extremes both sides seem willing to pursue for their vision.  In the end, typically I wind up siding with the Stormcloaks because I personally do not believe in homogenization, much like what is being attempted in that other strange place called 'The Real World' because it always boils down to forcing a so called common good on everyone, and the common good is never good for the common person, only the people telling the commoners that it is.  The Imperials remind me too much of what I see in the real world basically and ultimately the one thing I do believe in is two leaders fighting the fight instead of their soldiers.  If we made our politicians fight the wars, there wouldn't be hardly any wars.  But that's a philosophical topic for another thread and another day.</p>