Neravarine = Champion of Cyrodiil = Dragonborn?

[Indigoblade]

.... Biggest conspiracy theory in the ES series

[Tank0123]

Here's a zinger for you: just like Alduin screwed up and saved the Dragonborn by trying to kill him at Helgen, the Mythic Dawn likewise screwed up when they planted the wrong person -- Ann Marie, civilian expert on Oblivion -- instead of the agent that was supposed to be in that cell as part of the plot to kill the Emperor.

 

The evidence for Ann Marie being an Oblivion expert is pretty solid: who else knows how to turn Sigil Stones into usable equipment? (She knows this from Day 0; it must be part of her background story whatever that may be.) The only others I know of who can use Sigil Stones (besides Phinis Gestor who wasn't born yet) are Martin Septim, certain members of the Mythic Dawn including the Camoran Family ... and Ann Marie. This explains how the Dawn confused her with their agent.

 

It makes a later event a much closer call: just as the Blades [mistakenly] figure out you're the one sent to kill the Emperor, the Emperor saves you: "No, she can help us ..."

By Ann Marie, I assume you mean the Champion of Cyrodiil?

 

Interesting idea, I'm almost glad you necroed my thread.

[Tank0123]

.... Biggest conspiracy theory in the ES series

Might as well use my creative energies on something other than tin foil hats and alien abductions.

[Moshadawg]

 

And the fact is, Dragonbreaks, whether you like them or not, are a part of TES lore. And whether you like it or not, they occur in every game, mentioned or not. That is, while it may not be on the level of Daggerfall's Warp in the West, the fact that your character can choose to become the leader of this guild or that, join one Great House or another -- in the end, the fact that there can be an infinite number of outcomes means that a Dragonbreak, no matter how small, is going to occur. Of course, with your logic, perhaps we should establish a canon storyline where the main character, regardless of the player's actions, HAD to do whatever was mentioned in canon; every other possibility is discounted.

 

Scaling back the argument to individual games, I do not think that a Dragon break had to occur in order for all of the possible roles in a given game to be fulfilled. I simply believe that the canonical player character did everything that was presented to him/her in the game. Let's take Oblivion for example. History only recognizes the Champion of Cyrodiil as just that. They are only 'known' for what occured in the main quest. All of the events that took place in the guilds (Dark Brotherhood, Mages Guild, Thieves Guild, Fighters Guild) and even the side quests all still happened and are recorded events, but they are not attributed to the actions of any one person. I am of the opinion that the canonical player character is the culmination of all those possibilities, and that he/she was the one that orchestrated all of them. History is simply flawed, just as it is in real life, and does not recognize this. Whether this is by the player character's clever design or by simple coincidence I do not know, but it happened nonetheless.

 

We could start a whole 'nother discussion on the true nature of the player character and his/her motives. As you play out the role of this character, are you really in control, is this person you think you know really doing what you think he/she is doing? Perhaps the player character has all of this planned out and is scheming in the shadows to make all of this stuff happen, and that's why nobody realizes that their Champion or Hero is also the Listener of the Dark Brotherhood, for example. I am roleplaying one of my main characters in Skyrim to embody this theory somewhat, as he is known publicly as the Dragonborn and the Archmage, but also has an alter ego that is the Listener of the Dark Brotherhood and is working with the Thieves Guild with the intention of taking it over. This particular character is motivated by power, and my theory is that the canonical player character is also this way, you just don't know about it. But I digress...

 

As for the main topic of the discussion, I do realize the possibility of this theory but do not believe that this is actually the case. It is very interesting to think about because the possibility does indeed exist, especially in a universe as crazy as that of the Elder Scrolls, but I think it is more likely that they are three separate entities. But of course, just because it is more likely does not mean that it is true. However, my theory on the player character having a grand scheme right from the get go could support this theory that all three of these characters are one in the same. Perhaps he/she is a unique entity who's sole purpose is to change the course of the universe and to take on these roles that would otherwise be impossible to accomplish? That could mean that the player character is aware of his/her past deeds and maybe just got bored and moved on to change the world somewhere else. The possibilities are endless, but are good to think about regardless.

[Lachdonin]

 

 

And the fact is, Dragonbreaks, whether you like them or not, are a part of TES lore. And whether you like it or not, they occur in every game, mentioned or not. That is, while it may not be on the level of Daggerfall's Warp in the West, the fact that your character can choose to become the leader of this guild or that, join one Great House or another -- in the end, the fact that there can be an infinite number of outcomes means that a Dragonbreak, no matter how small, is going to occur. Of course, with your logic, perhaps we should establish a canon storyline where the main character, regardless of the player's actions, HAD to do whatever was mentioned in canon; every other possibility is discounted.

 

Scaling back the argument to individual games, I do not think that a Dragon break had to occur in order for all of the possible roles in a given game to be fulfilled. I simply believe that the canonical player character did everything that was presented to him/her in the game. Let's take Oblivion for example. History only recognizes the Champion of Cyrodiil as just that. They are only 'known' for what occured in the main quest. All of the events that took place in the guilds (Dark Brotherhood, Mages Guild, Thieves Guild, Fighters Guild) and even the side quests all still happened and are recorded events, but they are not attributed to the actions of any one person. I am of the opinion that the canonical player character is the culmination of all those possibilities, and that he/she was the one that orchestrated all of them. History is simply flawed, just as it is in real life, and does not recognize this. Whether this is by the player character's clever design or by simple coincidence I do not know, but it happened nonetheless.

 

This is important for people to note, if they want to get into the lore. ONLY Daggerfall ended in a Dragonbreak. Because that's what the Numidium does, it kicks Akatosh in the face.

 

In all other cases, things remain vague, but it all happens. The Mages Guild defeats Mannimarco. The Dark Brotherhood is decimated by an infiltrator. The College of Winterhold recovers the Eye of Magnus.

 

With the exception of that horrible idea that is the Civil War (and then, maybe even there...) every ending quest ending happens, whether a player did it in the previous game or not. To compensate, history remains vague on who accomplished these things.

[Tank0123]

 

snip

Scaling back the argument to individual games, I do not think that a Dragon break had to occur in order for all of the possible roles in a given game to be fulfilled. I simply believe that the canonical player character did everything that was presented to him/her in the game. Let's take Oblivion for example. History only recognizes the Champion of Cyrodiil as just that. They are only 'known' for what occured in the main quest. All of the events that took place in the guilds (Dark Brotherhood, Mages Guild, Thieves Guild, Fighters Guild) and even the side quests all still happened and are recorded events, but they are not attributed to the actions of any one person. I am of the opinion that the canonical player character is the culmination of all those possibilities, and that he/she was the one that orchestrated all of them. History is simply flawed, just as it is in real life, and does not recognize this. Whether this is by the player character's clever design or by simple coincidence I do not know, but it happened nonetheless.

 

We could start a whole 'nother discussion on the true nature of the player character and his/her motives. As you play out the role of this character, are you really in control, is this person you think you know really doing what you think he/she is doing? Perhaps the player character has all of this planned out and is scheming in the shadows to make all of this stuff happen, and that's why nobody realizes that their Champion or Hero is also the Listener of the Dark Brotherhood, for example. I am roleplaying one of my main characters in Skyrim to embody this theory somewhat, as he is known publicly as the Dragonborn and the Archmage, but also has an alter ego that is the Listener of the Dark Brotherhood and is working with the Thieves Guild with the intention of taking it over. This particular character is motivated by power, and my theory is that the canonical player character is also this way, you just don't know about it. But I digress...

 

As for the main topic of the discussion, I do realize the possibility of this theory but do not believe that this is actually the case. It is very interesting to think about because the possibility does indeed exist, especially in a universe as crazy as that of the Elder Scrolls, but I think it is more likely that they are three separate entities. But of course, just because it is more likely does not mean that it is true. However, my theory on the player character having a grand scheme right from the get go could support this theory that all three of these characters are one in the same. Perhaps he/she is a unique entity who's sole purpose is to change the course of the universe and to take on these roles that would otherwise be impossible to accomplish? That could mean that the player character is aware of his/her past deeds and maybe just got bored and moved on to change the world somewhere else. The possibilities are endless, but are good to think about regardless.

 

I like your thinking. The idea of an "entity" had not occurred to me; perhaps something on par with Padomay and Anu, or perhaps some kind of divine manifestation of both/either. It is all just theories, ideas, etc, interesting to think about but all very, very unlikely. Still, CHIM and the Godhead are considered canon I believe, and this really isn't far beyond those ideas.

[Tank0123]

 

snip

This is important for people to note, if they want to get into the lore. ONLY Daggerfall ended in a Dragonbreak. Because that's what the Numidium does, it kicks Akatosh in the face.

 

In all other cases, things remain vague, but it all happens. The Mages Guild defeats Mannimarco. The Dark Brotherhood is decimated by an infiltrator. The College of Winterhold recovers the Eye of Magnus.

 

With the exception of that horrible idea that is the Civil War (and then, maybe even there...) every ending quest ending happens, whether a player did it in the previous game or not. To compensate, history remains vague on who accomplished these things.

 

Don't forget the other exception of "Destroy the Dark Brotherhood", although then again I like to think Cicero, Babette, or another unnamed assassin that escaped the carnage still ended up doing that thing at the end (no spoilers).

[RatcatcherOfKvatch]

re: conspiracy theories:

 

Conspiracy theory + video game = $ profit $

 

"The X-Com Equation"

 

The coolest thing about conspiracy theories is they're part of the common culture and freely available to authors of fiction. Having a conspiracy theory for background allows a great deal of exposition to be skipped; posit some dead aliens stashed at Roswell and the audience fills in the rest from stuff they've already heard. Most of the work's been done for you; you might as well be writing a fanfic. That's basically what X-Com is, in game form.

 

X-Com didn't use Roswell but they used just about everything else, so from the very first day you already sort-of know you're supposed to send your jets out looking for flying saucers and bring back lots of advanced technological artifacts.

 

The one biggest thing you have to figure out for yourself is that saucers that land on their own power are valuable in the most important way possible compared to crashed wrecks -- undamaged saucers are almost your only source of alien fuel -- but it doesn't exactly take giant-alien-brain-level genius to figure out intact saucers should be more valuable than smashed-up hulks.

 

If the best thing about conspiracy theories are that they entertain I hope at least one person found my Ann Marie "Mythic D'oh" conjecture worth a chuckle.

"Wait, you put the wrong Oblivion expert in the escape cell?"

"D'oh!"

[salegseg23]

they are not the same, nevarine is a dunmer, COC is an imperial and dragonborn was a nord by defalt

[Kestrellius]

Then why exactly is the Dragonborn so hilariously uninformed about all things Skyrim-related?