Alignment choices and why

[AnimeOtaku102]

You tried to argue that since the military oath demands little more than servitude to the military hierarchy, Hadvar had absolutely no obligation to give a skeever's arse for the PC.

 

^^^^That is your argument. Yours. You made that argument to excuse Hadvar's decision to let his captain's orders stand. My hypothetical only emphasized the fact that the oath by itself is amoral. Before you jump to the assumption that I think all of the Legion soldiers lack morality, let me state that I don't believe that all. Let me also add that none of the soldiers took that oath so they could be perfect minions. They took that oath to defend their countrymen/country.

The crux of the matter here, is you're saying Hadvar's only obligation is to follow his orders. My counterargument was quite simply this, there's more to being a soldier than following orders. None of the Legionnaires enlisted to expressly do that. They enlisted to defend their country/countrymen. For the most part. Orcs I understand just look at it as a fun job, but that's beside the point.

Now I did make a couple of mistakes in my initial replies to you, but I have generally tried to avoid putting words in your mouth. When I repeat your arguments back to you, I tend to go "this is what I think your argument is", which should leave you plenty of room to correct me. You haven't, therefore I believe I am interpreting your arguments correctly. I would appreciate it if you also did the same to reduce the time I have to waste in rewriting scathing replies to less venomous ones.

 

That being said, you're failing to understand the oath is not the "crux" of my argument. It is a component of it. The actual crux is that I am questioning if Hadvar truly feels the order is unjust (which, again, I believe is the crux of your argument that he is weak). Given the lack of any information that would make him doubt (not suspect) that the PC is being unjustly executed he has but two choices: honor his oath or break them on baseless grounds. He can have a gut feeling and he can feel uncomfortable about it, but there is nothing solid that he can latch on to and say "here is something that suggests this person isn't a Stormcloak/escaped criminal/Imperial deserter", therefore he has to go with honoring his oath, which isn't to play lawyer at the slightest suspicion something is amiss.

 

On the contrary, he does show "some" internal conflict. After he's told to forget the list, Hadvar apologizes to the PC. Even tries to console the PC by mentioning honorable funeral arrangements. He doesn't do that for any of the others. That isn't some random coincidence.

First off, that's another erroneous claim you made there: honorable funeral arrangements. He doesn't actually say that, he just says they'll send the remains back to the PC's homeland. "I'm sorry. We'll make sure your remains are returned to <location>" are his exact words. I know this may seem like a small distinction, but a) it doesn't indicate belief of guilt or innocence and b) the use of the royal "we" indicates it's a Legion practice to send remains back home, not something he decided to do himself because of whatever.

 

Secondly, apologizing to the person he's sending off to die: you interpret it as a sign of feeling guilty, I interpret it as... not being a complete and total ass. Seriously, he asks a person his name, makes needless small talk, and then packs them off to be executed. What kind of person wouldn't throw in an apology there? What would be more appropriate? "Have a nice day"? "See you later"? "Keep your head down (har, har)"?

 

Yes they are in fact being executed for that suspicion. Lokir even moans about it "I'm not a rebel, you can't do this!". The PC and him happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. The men in the carts were actually bound for the Imperial City before Tullius decided to skip a trial and instead have an impromptu execution instead.

Oh, fair enough, so it's likely that everyone suspected the PC was a Stormcloak. So... Hadvar would know that everyone up the chain of command believes the execution order to be justified, he has nothing but a clerical error and lack of uniform, but since (again) the lack of evidence is not evidence, any basis for violating his oath, disobeying orders, and/or breaking the chain of command is maybe a hunch that we assume he has based on the tone of his voice and speculation as to why he's sorry they're going to lop the PC's head off.

 

You also argued Ulfric had an obligation to defend a settlement filled with people who wanted to murder him. That's not a rational argument.

Let's look back at what I said:

"On the other hand, Ulfric - the one guy in the entire place with the power of the Voice and any chance against a dragon - is out the door as soon as his gag is off. Sure, Helgen was clearly loyal to the Empire and Ulfric had no obligation to help defend them, but that just made his claims of fighting for Nords all that less authentic."

 

"I think it's highly unfair to find fault in Hadvar's actions and disparage people who choose him over Ralof, yet whitewash Ulfric's actions (note that I'm not calling Ulfric weak or a moron, just that his loyalty to the Nord people isn't authentic)."

 

"Only a complete moron would ignore orders on baseless grounds, which is exactly what Hadvar didn't do, yet he's weak for that?"

"It's honorable and just to defend your countrymen against a bigger threat than the Legion, which is exactly what Ulfric didn't do, yet there's nothing wrong with that?"

 

"Hadvar's actions are justifiable, but you insist on calling him weak for that, therefore I insist the same standard be applied to Ulfric despite his actions also being justifiable"

 

"This does not disprove my claim that you are not giving Hadvar the same considerations as you do Ulfric when justifying their actions based on their what their respective duties are and what they would reasonably know."

Hmm. Nope. I didn't argue he was obligated to stay. I was arguing that you were being unfair in your judgement of Hadvar and Ulfric. Both Ulfric and Hadvar were true to their duties, neither men did the moronic thing and threw their duty away. You judged one harshly for that, you didn't the other. You claimed those were apples and oranges, I pointed out that's a flawed argument, you counter with... whatever that was. I shouldn't bash you for that though, even I had to check my previous posts to make sure I didn't accidentally make that argument and I was the one who wrote them.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Anime_Otaku102

[Kraeten]

That being said, you're failing to understand the oath is not the "crux" of my argument. It is a component of it.

 

You're entire basis for arguing it would be unreasonable for Hadvar to step in on behalf of the PC is the Legion's oath. I'd say it's more than a component. As for why I'm not addressing every point you make, I'm trying to keep my bazillion quotes down. Sorry my ability to be concise has always been rather poor. :sweat:

 

First off, that's another erroneous claim you made there: honorable funeral arrangements. He doesn't actually say that, he just says they'll send the remains back to the PC's homeland.

 

True, I misspoke. Considering how the Stormcloaks are guilty of treason though I found that consideration akin to honorable funeral arrangements. I doubt many medieval societies would have made similar arrangements for their enemies much less people guilty of treason.

 

Seriously, he asks a person his name, makes needless small talk, and then packs them off to be executed. What kind of person wouldn't throw in an apology there?

 

So first we're supposed to be willing to overlook the fact the PC is going to be summarily executed for being found too close to a stormcloak platoon/army. That he's assumed to be a Stormcloak despite the lack of uniform. But it's for a good cause, they're just trying to punish traitors etc. Now you're saying Hadvar is supposed to be feel sorry for executing a traitor? Yeeeeaaaah, not buying it. Especially since I have this little piece of dialogue which supports my argument...and kind of destroys yours.

 

"Warrior, good. I knew you shouldn't have been on that cart the minute I laid eyes on you."

 

 

http://i804.photobucket.com/albums/yy327/Adamant19/TESV2013-01-1901-51-46-41copy.jpg

 

 

If you're curious, I usually chuck him in the river at that point. :tongue:

Edited January 19, 2013 by Kraeten

[AnimeOtaku102]

You're entire basis for arguing it would be unreasonable for Hadvar to step in on behalf of the PC is the Legion's oath. I'd say it's more than a component. As for why I'm not addressing every point you make, I'm trying to keep my bazillion quotes down. Sorry my ability to be concise has always been rather poor. :sweat:

If that's what you interpret my argument as, then I'm afraid you're mistaken. It's not the crux of my argument, I know this for a fact because it's my argument. I apologize if I'm somehow presenting it in a manner that makes you think otherwise, but it's gotten way past pointlessness to discuss this any further if you keep arguing against something that isn't mine.

 

True, I misspoke. Considering how the Stormcloaks are guilty of treason though I found that consideration akin to honorable funeral arrangements. I doubt many medieval societies would have made similar arrangements for their enemies much less people guilty of treason.

Well, I won't speculate on that part. We'll just have to hope a lore-savvy poster chimes in on the Legion's treatment of the dead.

 

So first we're supposed to be willing to overlook the fact the PC is going to be summarily executed for being found too close to a stormcloak platoon/army. That he's assumed to be a Stormcloak despite the lack of uniform. But it's for a good cause, they're just trying to punish traitors etc. Now you're saying Hadvar is supposed to be feel sorry for executing a traitor? Yeeeeaaaah, not buying it. Especially since I have this little piece of dialogue which supports my argument...and kind of destroys yours.

 

"Warrior, good. I knew you shouldn't have been on that cart the minute I laid eyes on you."

 

If you're curious, I usually chuck him in the river at that point. :tongue:

1) I'm not saying you should overlook the execution attempt, that was never in the scope of my argument. I have been arguing against your reasoning that Hadvar is weak. I have absolutely no problems with the stance of "I refuse to follow Hadvar because he was one of the people presiding over my execution." That's a factual statement. "Hadvar is weak because he meekly obeyed an order he believed is unjust" is not a factual statement. It is an opinion based on multiple assumptions.

2) Again with the armor. Nothing says Stormcloaks can't or won't remove their armor. In fact during the Civil War quest line you can deliver false reports to the Stormcloaks in regular armor, tell the commander you tossed your uniform to avoid patrols, and he'll say that's smart. Not cowardly, not unbefitting of Stormcloaks, but smart. It's not taboo in the Stormcloak army to go incognito. Not having the uniform doesn't prove the PC is a Stormcloak soldier, but neither does it prove he's innocent. That makes the uniform issue irrelevant because, once again, the lack of evidence is not evidence. Guilt was determined by some other method, we don't know what it was, the PC was unconscious when that happened and we were still in the main menu.

3) Well, I'm sorry you feel that way about Hadvar's apology. Oh, look, I just said I'm sorry without feeling the least bit sorry. I was just being polite. Heaven forbid anyone else ever use "sorry" in such a way. :rolleyes:

4) That quote would only "destroy" my argument if Hadvar mentioned that he had proof. He offered nothing beyond an affirmation of a gut feeling, which I have already pointed out is not the grounds to violate his oath.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Anime_Otaku102

[Kraeten]

"Hadvar is weak because he meekly obeyed an order he believed is unjust" is not a factual statement. It is an opinion based on multiple assumptions.

We know he believed the PC shouldn't have been lumped with the rest of the Stormcloaks, the same stormcloaks about to be executed, yet he didn't act on that belief when it may have saved the PC's life. And you're saying he isn't weak. Suuuuuure he isn't. He's just not willing to stick his neck out for someone who is about to be executed unjustly. Nothing wrong with that.

3) Well, I'm sorry you feel that way about Hadvar's apology. Oh, look, I just said I'm sorry without feeling the least bit sorry. I was just being polite. Heaven forbid anyone else ever use "sorry" in such a way. :rolleyes:

Feel? There's nothing to feel. I was right and you were wrong. Or did you forget when you said "The actual crux is that I am questioning if Hadvar truly feels the order is unjust"

 

And I did in fact prove that he feels the order was unjust. There's really nothing else to argue but you want to keep going at it. Sorry to disappoint but I'm done. I made my point, and provided the evidence to back it up. Toodlepip.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Kraeten

[AnimeOtaku102]

I made my point, and provided the evidence to back it up. Toodlepip.

Wow, that level of delusion impresses the hell out of me. You have offered nothing but assumptions, demonstrably misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented my argument to support your own position, and in the end started running away from arguments like a champ. You certainly did make your point.

 

Too bad it wasn't one about your opinion and wholly about your character.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Anime_Otaku102

[UrgeNexus]

I made my point, and provided the evidence to back it up. Toodlepip.

Wow, that level of delusion impresses the hell out of me. You have offered nothing but assumptions, demonstrably misunderstood or deliberately misrepresented my argument to support your own position, and in the end started running away from arguments like a champ. You certainly did make your point.

 

Too bad it wasn't one about your opinion and wholly about your character.

Might be for the best if it ends here honestly, it's a shame how these discussions tend to end up the same every time, it's an interesting subject with a lot of factors to consider along with lack of information and misinformation to sort out. Both sides have merits, but because people can't seem to distance themselves personally when discussing it, you can't really reach a consensus. If people aren't trying to win the argument (Which accomplishes nothing), they are getting incredibly defensive over their virtual political views.

 

I don't really see why it has to be that way though. When I play the game I don't see how it's relevant what I think about the war. My character's opinion on it is what matters, not mine.

[ta192]

No Dawnguard, so no opinion on the last one...

As far as the Forsworn vs Silver Bloods, there's not really a choice offered other than killing Madanach or not. I choose to let him live most of the time. Don't need the minor smithing ring and it's nice to have one Forsworn camp that I can stroll into without weapons drawn.

 

That leaves the Imps and the Cloaks. Didn't really care for either, still don't. They both remind me of the Republican Party, Cloaks being the Tea Baggers. Not my favorite people. If I could, I'd screw them both over...but, I play Skyrim long term. When I'm playing, I live in Skyrim, in Whiterun. Whiterun is the only place I really like. The other towns are too one-horse, too close to the Thalmor Embassy, sewers (like Markarth and Riften) or just plain s*** holes, like Windhelm. Other than the palace and the inn, the place is just a giant slum, even before the Legion levels it. Comes down to Whiterun...if Whiterun is under attack, I'm defending, not attacking, my home. I ALWAYS join the Imperials...

Edited January 19, 2013 by ta192

[zombierelic]

Well, it's normally just what I feel like at the time with the one exception of legion vs stormcloak. I always choose legion simply because I feel the empire is at it's last vestige of glory before some form of dark age (unless the next game has us saving/killing it) but mainly because I view the stormcloak's as doomed to being destroyed, the only question being if by imperial, mer, or there own hands.

[UrgeNexus]

Well, it's normally just what I feel like at the time with the one exception of legion vs stormcloak. I always choose legion simply because I feel the empire is at it's last vestige of glory before some form of dark age (unless the next game has us saving/killing it) but mainly because I view the stormcloak's as doomed to being destroyed, the only question being if by imperial, mer, or there own hands.

I see the Stormcloaks are passionate and driven, but short sighted. To para-phrase something said by Farkas and later Kodlak of the Companions. While a soldier can keep his eyes on the prey, a general must look to the horizon. The Stormcloaks aren't looking at the big picture. Is the ban on Talos worship bad? Absolutely, worse than your average person on Tamriel knows. Is it worth a civil war that only serves to weaken your own lands while doing nothing but good to the Dominion? No.

 

If the Empire was to disband after stopping the Thalmor, I'd be fine with that. I'm not an imperialist by any means, the Empire has many flaws and it may be high time for something new. This is not that time however.

[893kira]

Totally wish they would expand the story of the Silver Hands and the Forsworn. I think it is much better to join the Silver Hands than the Dawnguard. They have been fighting undead and werewolf and accept anyone who would do the job compared to a fancy Dawnguard. I thought before Dawnguard DLC would expand the Silver Hand's tale due the fact they hunt werewolves and the undead. Like people in Dawnguard are another chapter of the Silver Hands or something.

 

For the Forsworn their struggle against the Nords sounds interesting. It will be cool that there would be an option they would join the Imperial like temporary alliance. Seriously It will be awesome seeing some Imperial patrols have Forsworn scouts helping them navigate Skyrim. It sounds so weird that that the Imperials can navigate Skyrim easily without a guide. Totally wish Bethesda just copy some Fallout New Vegas faction war feature into Skyrim civil war. Like persuading the Forsworn a truce between the Nords and the Imperials. Faction Disguises will be awesome.