What to do with the Nightingales after the Destroy the Thieves Guild q

[bruce142]

As you all may know, I've made a mod that allows the player to destroy the Thieves Guild and kill/exile Maven Black-Briar. As a few people suggested they want to do something about the Nightingales as well. I did work out a base concept but I want to hear what your suggestions are.

 

This is the base concept I've come up with :

 

 

- The player will be greeted by Karliah (don't know how to do this but hey I managed quite a bit, so this wouldn't be so hard to make) and she congratulates you for killing Mercer Frey but she is angry at you at the same time for killing Brynjolf (maybe she had a secret relationship with him and had a shadow child, like in the Game of Thrones), so she makes you an offer, leave the Nightingales alone and (maybe, I don't know how to do this exactly) earn their respect again or be brought down by the shadow legion of the Nightingales (insert epic fight here =P, maybe a level based number of Nightingales ninjas, if your about level 80, maybe 300 ninjas called the Immortals =P). IF you survive the fight, Karliah runs away to the Twilight Sepulcher but leaving bread crumbs (a key, don't walk in the light, ...) laying around and if you reach the bottom of this ruin, there is an epic boss battle between the ghost of Nocturnal with Karliah against you, if you win this fight you find a note on Karliah's body with the location of the skeleton key and the optional ritual you can perform to gain one of Nocturnal's powers. And guess where this key is : yes in the Snow Veil Sanctum... .

[Zephyr2011]

I like that you add options here, but I would suggest that if you fight the Nightingales to keep it to a maximum of three nightingales, Karliah included. As, lore wise, only three can exist at one time I believe. Of course, if lore isn't your focus then by all means, unleash legions and legions of crazy ninjas.

[calfurius]

Join them, the Nightingales are probably the closest to the Robin Hood style Oblivion Thieves Guild as you can get in Skyrim. Nightingales are thieves, but they have a sense honor (Something the Skyrim Thieves greatly lacks, which is why everybody who plays a good character hates them).

 

 

Either you can join them or leave them alone.

[kryptopyr]

Nightingales are thieves, but they have a sense honor.

Um...

Mercer was a Nightingale. The very same guy who is almost certainly responsible for the dishonorable nature of the Guild itself.

 

 

The Nightingales are no more inherently honorable than the Thieves Guild. They're pretty much Nocturnal's version of the Mythic Dawn... very different motivations, yes, but they both exist to serve the purpose of their daedric lord in exchange for a promise of power and an eternal reward.

 

@bruce

Anyway, even if you choose to stick to lore, I don't think you could really have 3 Nightingales since it would contradict the story of the Guild and what happened between Karliah, Mercer, and Gallus. I can't see Karliah approaching the guy who just wiped out her former friends and partners. I think she would just disappear. I also feel that joining the Nightingales is one of the "rewards" for completing the Thieves Guild quests, and to me, it would seem very illogical and strange for the player to have this option after they've chosen to destroy the thieves guild. It would be like rewarding the player with the rebuilt Dawnstar Sanctuary and having Cicero as a follower after you've decided to destroy the Dark Brotherhood.

 

I applaud you for your Destroy the Thieves Guild mod. I think it's an option that should have been available in the original game. However, I also believe that there should be real consequences for choosing to take certain actions, and it doesn't seem appropriate to allow the player access to the Nightingales if they've chosen to walk a different path.

Edited January 9, 2013 by kryptopyr

[bruce142]

@kryptopyr : My thoughts exactly, I wanted to make the Nightingales destroyable as well (because of the logical consequences after you have destroyed the Thieves Guild : either Karliah leaves you alone or she will hunt you down because she works in the name of the Nightingales with Noctural (the Patron of the thieves) as moral leader) but I received numerous suggestions from players who want to join them after destroying the Thieves Guild. This is not entirely lore-unfriendly as you did what you would do in the end of the Thieves Guild quest : kill Mercer Frey but you did killed another Nightingale Brynjolf. My idea was to make a compromise between completely lore-friendly and the wishes of the majority of the users : you only can join the Nightingales if you earn their trust and respect again.

 

@Zephyr Kronos : Where does it state that there can only be three nightingales? Okay, maybe the 300 (did you catch the reference to the movie '300'? Immortals?) nightingales are a bit too much and the shadow child was a joke, maybe ten or something (although 300 Nightingales would make an epic fight)?

[kryptopyr]

Well, Brynjolf didn't become a Nightingale until the player becomes one, so killing him isn't killing a Nightingale. The "Nightinagles" are more formally known as the Nightingale Trinity, which is generally made up of three highly-skilled thieves (which isn't to say that those numbers haven't fluctuated a bit at times, but I doubt there's ever been more than 4 at once). I believe that Karliah's dialogue indicates this as well as the "Nightingale" books that Gallus wrote. There are the remains of three beds in Nightingale Hall, three Nightingale armor stones, three pedestals for summoning Nocturnal, three Nightingale powers, etc. If you want to include an option to destroy them, and you want to have multiple enemies, then you could have the player attacked by the "shadows" (the ghosts of former Nightingales).

 

Here are a few sources:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Nightingale_Trinity

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Nightingales:_Fact_or_Fiction%3F

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Nightingales

 

The connection between the Nightingales and thieves (if not specifically the Thieves Guild) is pretty strong. At the very least, if you allow the player to join, it should only be after they steal a ridiculous amount of gold and items to prove not only that they're a skilled thief worthy of inclusion in such a secretive and elite group, but also that they can be trusted. However, I still think joining a high-ranking, exclusive group of thieves after slaughtering the entire Thieves Guild is not going to be lore friendly no matter how you slice it.

 

Obviously, this is all just my opinion, and even if you agree about the lore part, it's not as if mods are required to stick to lore. I would suggest just doing what you want to do. You're going to be the one putting all the time and effort into the quest, so it should be something you feel is worthwhile.

Edited January 9, 2013 by kryptopyr

[bruce142]

You're right about the Trinity (therefore the quest where you do join the Nightingales during the Thieves Guild questline is called Trinity restored), but I've one problem with it : First there was Gallus, Karliah and Mercer Frey, Gallus got killed by Mercer Frey so there is only Karliah and Mercer Frey left but then you and Brynjolf join the Nightingales which makes the total of 4 Nightingales (You, Brynjolf, Karliah and Mercer Frey). I do going to follow your advice (I didn't taged the mod lore-friendly to throw it away for some suggestions of users) and leave the Nightingales idea to let it be as it is or only let Karliah (and maybe Nocturnal) come after the player (this is still lore-friendly but still unlogical as I doubt that the ghosts of the former Nightingales will attack you as you restored the peace in the Nightingales order (by killing Mercer Frey) and so you took revenge on Gallus dead. This is not a easy task, you have pissed off the Nightingales order too much to join them (by killing the Thieves Guild, Noctural is the patron of the Thieves) but you have helped them (by killing Mercer Frey) too much to be hostile towards you as well). I think I will leave it as it is unless someone could come with an idea which is lore-friendly and logical at the same time. Edited January 9, 2013 by bruce142

[samv96UK]

I would definitely say keep the Nightingales as an available 'faction' to join. I'm not a hardcore Thieves Guild fan, but the Nightingales on the other hand interest me. And who would want to miss out on the awesome Nightingales Armour set?! :)

[jet4571]

Quoted from the mod thread

 

Thats not really bad news as you have said you were considering not doing anything with them. The original idea of fighting Karliah would be just fine. you can get the armor, bow, sword, and skeleton key as well as entrance to Snow Veil so you can get the shout and maybe the falmers eye. Joining them was just an option suggestion.

 

Though I still think having Mercer run off all scared and going to Snow Veil would be better than killing him with the others. Adds a genuine reason to go to Snow Veil to kill the last remaining thief and can be integrated into Karliah, maybe a note in her inventory from the elf at the inn(helps decipher the dwemer rubbing and book) saying he discovered where Mercer escaped to so she can go after him after she deals with the dragonborn. Just put him in the Falmers eye room where you can have an epic fight with him. You can also utilize him to bring Karliah and the PC together, have a courier give the player a note saying Mercer escaped to Nightingale Hall. The note ofcourse is a lie and its Karliah there to ambush and kill the player. epic fight and she escapes to twighlight Sepulcher for the final epic battle between her, some nightingale sentinals and the player. Once done the player gets to keep her gear maybe a nightingale power and finds the real location of Mercer Via the letter to Karliah in her inventory.

 

Ofcourse for players that already killed Mercer they just wont have him there and for that consideration the guard Vald outside Mercers house can be substituted for Mercer altogether in my above suggested scenario as his acomplice and he is the one that took off to steal the Falmer eye and now has the Skeleton key. Karliah could have a note saying he has the key and is at SnowVeil. Scenario could be he heard that mercer was killed with the rest of the guild so he went inside Mercers house, grabbed the Skeleton key and Chillrend thats in a display case then went to Snow veil to get the Falmer eyes as was Mercers original plan and his own greed. This also doesnt affect the original destruction of the guild because Vald was never in the guild but he had a tie to Mercer and access to his house to see Mercers plans so very well can be added.

 

Either way the Skeleton key is vital to the Nightingales and would be the reason for her to need to go to Snow Veil after dealing with the player. Mercer or Vald being the one holding it just makes it all the more better because who doesnt like a good fight?

 

So list of what could happen.

1. Thieves guild is destryoed, questline completed. Maven not yet done.

2. 24 hours later the courier gives the PC a letter from the elf in the guild questline asking to meet him at Nightingale hall or that Vald is there and has ties to the guild.

3. PC goes to nightingale hall and is ambushed by Karlaih. options of stay out of her way or face the consequences.

4a. PC chooses to stay out of the way. end of questline.

4b. PC chooses to fight.

5. Fight does not go well for Karliah and she escapes to Twighlight Sepulcher.

6. PC follows her in there and epic fight with her, some guardians and Nocturnal.

7. PC defeats all the oponnents gets Karliahs gear (maybe a Nocturnal power) and finds the letter to Karliah pointing towards Vald at Snow Veil.

8. PC goes to Snow Veil and defeats the guard Vald and gets the Falmers eyes and Skeleton Key. plus Chillrend.

9. End of quest.

 

Simple without much dancing with Dialogue issues using 2 letters, 1 to bring the PC and Karliah together, and the second to point the PC to Snow Veil.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Vald

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Chillrend

 

*edit, Oh wrong quest for Falmers eyes, those are at Irkngthand. So maybe have the letter say he is at either Snow Veil or Irkngthand. quest updates to Search Snow Veil for Vald and the key. you go there and search but he is not there so quest updates to Search Irkngthand for Vald where he is in the room stealing the falmers eyes.

 

Lore friendly with above scenario because the Skeleton key is integral to Nightingales, Mercer had the key and now he is dead so ofcourse Karliah will be after the key even though clearing her name and killing Mercer is no longer needed. She does need the key to get back in Nocturnals good graces. Vald steals key from Mercers house and runs off to complete Mercers plans for his own benifit. Karliah needs to kill off the PC so she can rebuild the TG as the front for the Nightingales without the threat of the PC coming and destroying it again. PC defeats Karliah, then off to get the key so nobody will have it and rebuild the guild and/or the Nightingales.

[bruce142]

I have tried to put a little sketch together with the voice lines Karliah has, It has been difficult because Karliah has more voice lines for when you have joined the Nightingales. I'm intending to place a note with location where Mercer Frey has hidden the skeleton key on Mercer Frey's body (probably Snowveil Sanctum), you need to get the key first and this scene will start to play :

 

Player gets ambushed by Karliah, she has her weapon raised and rushes towards the player

 

K : dialoguege_006f419_1 (there you are)

dialoguege_00a6bb8_1 (I bring death from the shadows)

dialoguege_00a6bf6_1 (Nocturnal, guide my hand) OR dialoguege_000a6bb9_1 (by Nocturnal's grace, I will defeat you) OR dialogue_00a6b48_1 (I claim your soul for Nocturnal)

 

P : Bring it on then (Karliah assaults you, now you can kill her)

 

OR

P : Wait, don't kill me, just hear me out

 

K : tg05sp_00032df6_1 (Give me a reason to try)

 

P: I don't know why you want to assault me but the only thing I did was getting rid of Riften's scum by killing Mercer Frey and his followers

 

K: tg05_tg05karliahintrobranc_000b838c_1 (All I hoped for was to capture Mercer alive)

tg06_tg06karliahmercernoki_0004dbc1_1 (For 25 years I ran, never sleeping in the same place twice and carefully covering my tracks)

tg06_tg06karliahmercernoki_0004dbc1_2 (Mercer lied to the guild, branded me a murderer and slandered my name across his network of contacts)

 

Option 1

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P : Well it was nice meeting you, although you wanted to kill me first (you hold the Skeleton key)

 

K : tg05_tg05karliahintrobranc_0001bb45_2 (had I intended to kill you we wouldn't have this conversation)

tg05sp_00032dd5_3 (I promise you the next time we'll meet, It will be your undoing.)

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Option 2

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You choose to return the key and so starting quest TG09 (Darkness returns, requires me to set Brynjolf as optional otherwise the quest will not start) after getting some more info from Karliah about Gallus and the Nightingales (otherwise the tg09 quest won't make sense).

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Edited January 11, 2013 by bruce142