SSE Help on Dwemer ambushes - why do they only initialise correctly sometimes?

[dafydd99]

Hi all,

 

I have a mid-sized dwemer dungeon cell with quite a few ambushes. Just c+p's from the warehouse (so always have links from the actor/furniture/trigger etc in place). Have been trying through trial and error without much success to understand the criteria by which they initialise correctly, as I currently get around half working fine, the others just won't work. By initialise I mean move the automaton from where it's placed in the creation kit to 'inside' (usually behind) the piece of furniture they spring out of. Particularly irritating are spheres.

 

An example is I have a 'fire escape' style stairway that goes back and forth, deeper into the dungeon. I can place the sphere ambush on the top level - works fine. Take it down a level and it's broken. Navmesh may have something to do with it (could it be overlapping with levels above?), but all seems to be in place correctly and finalised.

 

Does anyone have a checklist or tips of what is required for them to function properly (eg positioning, navmesh status under furniture, nearby statics), or better yet, an idea of how to get it to complain to logs at initialisation if something isn't right for it. I always load the mod from an old save, and enter it from outside the cell, so it can't be anything burned in to a save.

 

Thanks in advance for any help - this one is driving me crazy!

 

dafydd99

[maxarturo]

1) Do not ever use vanilla stuff, especially "Copy - Paste" from vanilla cells.

2) The required time to set up an ambush from scratch it literally requires no more than 1 min.

3) Be sure that you are using an "Ambush Actor" that has all the requiered ambush script + packages.

4) NavMesh should be place/created the same way as for all actors.

5) Don't ever use a 'Save File' to test your mod, especially for simple things like this.

* 'Save Files' are needed to test mods if the mod is heavily scripted, has heavy scripted quests, has scripts that run an "Init" function, has scripted scenes... and others.

For simple things like this the best practice is to create a "PreFabCell" and each time you need to check/test something in a cell connect the "PreFabCell" to the testing cell with a 'Load Door', there is no need to finailize the NavMesh for this set of doors.

"COC" to the "PreFabCell" and from there go to the cell that you intend on checking.

* If you don't know the exact reasons for what and why i'm proposing this, don't hesitate to ask further info.

6) Other mods that are loaded with your esp can have an influence on your 'Ambushes', for example:

- "Monster Mod" will replace all automatons with the "Monster Mod" actors and none of them can use "Ambush Furnitures".

* Not criticizing the mod above, in fact is one of my favorites even with its flaws.

Have a happy modding.

[dafydd99]

Thanks for the feedback maxarturo - that's very helpful. I'd actually understood that c+p'ing stuff from the warehouse was good practice, so that's corrected my thinking. Shouldn't be any other mods conflicting as I only have patches.

 

I *think* I understand what you're saying about saved files - I was just pointing out that I should have no actors/initialisation etc burned into the save that I'm using to test (ie the whole cell is new to it), so that can't be the problem.

 

The trouble I have with my ambushes, whether made from scratch or just c+p'd, is that in some locations in my cell they work fine - and in others they refuse to set up correctly. I thought perhaps it was because I had water turned on, and nothing below the water level would initialise correctly, but no, that didn't make a difference. I can delete them and rebuild them, and the same problems happen in the same locations. There's some hidden rules as to what allows an ambush to set up that I'm just not understanding.

 

Perhaps I'll just need to keep on trial and erroring it until I have something working the way I want. Or just remove the ones that don't work!

 

Thanks again - dafydd99

[maxarturo]

For what i can understand, you are trying to set up a 'Dwe Ambush' on an exterior cell, there is a reason behind why bethesda has not a single "Furniture Ambush" on an exterior cell.

For further info on this i need to sit on my PC, because i do not remember the code by heart, to be able to correctly explain the why, sorry...

Edited June 30, 2020 by maxarturo

[dafydd99]

Ah no - this is all interior. Just a regular dwemer ruins/dungeon - shouldn't be anything special or unusual going on. I actually have one working fine on an exterior cell though! You can see blackreach as an example of where they've done this in external cells (allbeit without a sky!).

[maxarturo]

Blackreach is an exception, they are all set up in such a way that you can not see the actor outside its furniture from an other cell, furniture ambush script uses an on cell attach function to initalize the ambush, if you put an ambush in an exterior cell A and then you try to see the ambush from the cell C, D... etc you will be able to see the actor outside the ambush because the 'OnCellAttach()' on cell A hasn't fire to initalize the ambush.

Edited June 30, 2020 by maxarturo

[dafydd99]

Ah, yes that would make sense. Well - fortunately my dwemer dungeon is just a single cell anyhow. Nothing that should cause irregularities.

[maxarturo]

"Copy - Paste" things like ambushes even if the initial was made from scratch, can lead to issues like not firing.

Always HATE AVOID COPIES AND DUPLICATES !.

If you keep facing problems with your ambushes, then post some pic with the problematic ambushes set up or a video, ambushes are quite simple to set up and sometimes the issue could be something really simple or something unrelated, like a meshe's collision interfering with the actor.

[dafydd99]

I've done some experiments avoiding cut and paste - and I think you may be right! They look identical through creation kit - ie they get the linked ref and activate parent correct, but *something* isn't set up right - something invisible. To be fair, this is a huge issue in creation kit if c+p can't be trusted - perhaps it should only be used for statics and standalones, c+ping each individual part then re-linking them seems to work okay. I'm using the unofficial patch for creation kit - I'll double check I've got the latest version.

 

Thanks again, maxarturo.

Edited June 30, 2020 by dafydd99

[cumbrianlad]

I second what Maxarturo has told you about never copying and pasting. Not for ambushes, not for bookcases, weapon racks etcetera. Anything with links and scripts in.

 

I don't even copy and paste statics. Do this from a vanilla cell into your own and you can easily flag the vanilla cell as edited by your mod and you have to manually clean in SSeedit.

 

On topic about some ambushes not working, if they are all done from scratch as Maxarturo says, you can check that your triggers are set up correctly and all the properties in the ambush script on the actor are correct. If you are using coc to enter the cell, this messes with things like AI and ambush actors are very badly affected. In the 7 cells I'm currently working on, I have ambush dwarven actors in most of them. If I COC directly into the cell with the ambush actors, some or all of them are sitting at their editor location, rather than in their ambush furniture. If I COC into an adjacent cell and use the load door to get in, they are all correct and work properly.

 

This applies to NPCs, too. My unique actor will start giving me the 'You have to leave' line if I COC into his cell, despite the fact that the cell is not owned by him. Sometimes he is attacking his allies. If I use a load door to get in he greets me properly and gets on well with his neighbours!

 

I find that COC is only really useful for testing object placement, textures, roombounds and things like lighting. Even with lighting, I wouldn't trust it if I had lights controlled by scripts. For all other testing use a load door to get in.

 

Lastly, One ambush sphere was sitting at its editor location when entering via a load door. It was set up correctly. I moved it in CK to a location a couple of meters away without doing anything else. It now works every time. I can't see a reason for this. Its furniture was embedded in a DLC02DweBlockA01 which was positioned half inside a mine cliff. I had a similar set up on the opposite side of the room and that one never gave a problem. Try tweaking the position.

 

What Maxarturo said about them not being 'seen' when in ambush might make sense here. if you use tcl in a cell with dwemer ambush npcs that are correctly in their furniture, you can clip through the floor/wall and see the actor sitting in the furniture. You'll then know if the other actors would be poking out into view in this position. If they would be with your problem actors, this may be the problem.

 

Edit: there's a bit of mileage in that last statement about the set up I moved. Looking at it now and thinking back to where it was before, the Dwemer Sphere may well have been partly in view underneath the mine cliff, where I first had it.