Re-locating Rochebere

[samv96UK]

Hello all!

 

I've recently been mulling over in my head some of the realistic bounds of Rochebere, and that led me to realize how large the city is for it's location.

 

At the moment, the city is located on the point where the borders of Skyrim, Cyrodiil and Hammerfell meet, thus it is not part of any of the three provinces. This is why many people of Tamriel have never heard of Rochebere, making it fit into lore rather nicely. However, considering the size of the city this kind of contradicts itself, since it would be hard for people not to notice a city this large.

 

So anyway, I'm considering re-locating Rochebere to a more suitable location. No matter where I move it to, it has to be relatively close to Skyrim, since in the cities lore the current ruler of Rochebere is nicknamed 'Jarl' despite not being one of the 9 Jarls' of Skyrim (This is because the founding family of Rochebere were half-Nord, half-Breton, and they believed it only fitting to honour their Nordic heritage and cultures).

 

The two locations that spring to mind are:

 

1. A small island to the North of Skyrim and High Rock.
   
2. On the Northern Borders of Skyrim and High Rock.
   

 

These locations are suitable because they are near Skyrim, and are relatively lore friendly- the 1st location would fit into lore because not many people have discovered the island, the 2nd location would fit because, for the same reason as the original location, it doesn't belong inside one single province, and thus goes unnoticed by many people. The architecture in Rochebere is very similar to that of Daggerfall, despite being similar to Cyrodiilic architecture too, so it would fit in nicely to a new location of near High-Rock.

 

So what do you think? Let me know below!

Edited January 16, 2013 by samv96UK

[samv96UK]

Any other opinions on this?

[luzburg]

An Island city would be pretty damn cool actually.

[ChampionOfHircine]

I don't say this very often but screw the lore. I've thought about how to make my own lore-friendly city before and what I came up with is either expand an old city, put it in a new worldspace or say 'screw the lore.' It will be fine where it is, and moving it sounds like a lot of work.

[bben46]

I don't worry over lore. And it seems neither does Bethesda. The 'lore' has changed with each game to fit what they want to do in that game. Then third parties come along and try to explain away the differences in the lore between games with varying amounts of success.

 

Lore is essentially the history. And as I have learned over a long life, history is constantly being 'revised' to fit whatever the current attitudes are. Sometimes for worse, and sometimes for better, and other times to hide facts or reveal the hidden facts of older generations. So It is likely that the rulers, scholars, bards and sages of Nirn have done the same thing. Making their history (lore) over to be more palatable to the people.

 

Who is to say that due to an earthquake, the old road through the pass has been closed for some time (Centuries?) cutting off contact, and the ancient city has become more of a myth to the common people, but actually known to more learned people. The current management of city, with Herculean effort by its workers, has finally managed to clear the pass so trade and travelers can once again get to it.

If your city works for what you want in it's present location, let the lore mongers agonize over it. :biggrin:

 

If you really want the city somewhere else do it.

 

We saw something similar in Oblivion. The original map showed a city named Sutch. But it was dropped from the game before release. Several people have remade Sutch as a mod with various ideas on how it should be. From a simple village with a few houses to a massively fortified town, to a lost ruined city being rebuilt with help from the Hero. How does the Lore handle Sutch? It's actually mentioned in some of the lore (that's how we know about it at all) with no explanation of why it doesn't exist. :tongue:

[DreamKingMods]

I haven't been following Rochebere closely--I've been aware of it, but waiting for release--so forgive me if this is a silly question, but does your lore require the city to be very old? Or unknown? Because if not, you have the 200 years since TES4 Oblivion to work out a lore-friendly reason for putting the city wherever you want it. For example, "the city began as a small Imperial border fort that Nordic farmers and hunters fled to for safety during the Oblivion Crisis, causing it to expand into a full town, independent of any of Skyrim's holds. Then in the Great War it grew rapidly from refugees fleeing over the borders from Cyrodiil and Hammerfell. At the same time, the inability of the Empire to protect itself led to the city becoming fully independent, with its own guards and its own ruler. The mix of Nordic roots and settlers from abroad created a unique blend of architectures and cultures."

 

Or something like that--you get the idea. A similar background would work with the High Rock border, too.

 

Personally I'd shy away from the idea of an island just because several of the other big mods are already doing that--Wyrmstooth, Falskaar, Issgard--as of course is the Dragonborn DLC. On the other hand, a big city that I don't have to sail to would be a unique and cool addition to the game.

[samv96UK]

I don't say this very often but screw the lore. I've thought about how to make my own lore-friendly city before and what I came up with is either expand an old city, put it in a new worldspace or say 'screw the lore.' It will be fine where it is, and moving it sounds like a lot of work.

 

I suppose... to be honest the lore freaks would probably find flaws in Rochebere's law no matter where it is! :P

 

I don't worry over lore. And it seems neither does Bethesda. The 'lore' has changed with each game to fit what they want to do in that game. Then third parties come along and try to explain away the differences in the lore between games with varying amounts of success.

 

Lore is essentially the history. And as I have learned over a long life, history is constantly being 'revised' to fit whatever the current attitudes are. Sometimes for worse, and sometimes for better, and other times to hide facts or reveal the hidden facts of older generations. So It is likely that the rulers, scholars, bards and sages of Nirn have done the same thing. Making their history (lore) over to be more palatable to the people.

 

I suppose that is true! I remember Todd Howard saying somewhere that Bethesda never intended that the ancient Nordic power of the Thu'um was to be the language of the Dragons, but when it came to Skyrim they were able to make it that way.

 

Who is to say that due to an earthquake, the old road through the pass has been closed for some time (Centuries?) cutting off contact, and the ancient city has become more of a myth to the common people, but actually known to more learned people. The current management of city, with Herculean effort by its workers, has finally managed to clear the pass so trade and travelers can once again get to it.

If your city works for what you want in it's present location, let the lore mongers agonize over it.

 

You know what, I think I may be able to use that Idea in some shape or form... :)

 

It could help to explain the size of the city, and make it more realistic that it wasn't all built in the space of 200 years (Like I planned in the original lore).

 

Does your lore require the city to be very old? Or unknown? Because if not, you have the 200 years since TES4 Oblivion to work out a lore-friendly reason for putting the city wherever you want it. For example, "the city began as a small Imperial border fort that Nordic farmers and hunters fled to for safety during the Oblivion Crisis, causing it to expand into a full town, independent of any of Skyrim's holds. Then in the Great War it grew rapidly from refugees fleeing over the borders from Cyrodiil and Hammerfell. At the same time, the inability of the Empire to protect itself led to the city becoming fully independent, with its own guards and its own ruler. The mix of Nordic roots and settlers from abroad created a unique blend of architectures and cultures."

 

In actual fact, you pretty much nailed the lore I originally planned for it's location! The settlement was only a small Nordic farming village on the borders of Skyrim, Cyrodiil and Hammerfell, but during the Oblivion crisis a noble Breton-Nord family from Kvatch fled from Cyrodiil to the North, hoping to escape some of the danger. They came across the settlement of Rochebere, and helped to expand and fortify it to prevent Daedra attacks on the town. After the Oblivion Crisis ended, the people of the village crowned the father of the noble family as 'Jarl' of Rochebere, as he had helped the city during the time of darkness. Eagle Tower was constructed over the coming years as a monument to those who lost their lives during the Crisis. After 200 years, the city has grown enormous amounts, making it as large as it is in game.

 

The only thing I didn't work out in this lore is how the city became so big so quickly and with so little people, but I think you've pretty much solved that problem for me! Thanks a lot for giving me some new ideas! :)

 

Then in the Great War it grew rapidly from refugees fleeing over the borders from Cyrodiil and Hammerfell.

 

Like bben46 mentioned, I could make it so that the highway to the city has been blocked for centuries too, meaning that I could perhaps make it so that the city was larger than a farming establishment before the Oblivion Crisis, but had become a myth to the people of Tamriel.

 

 

So overall, I think I've come to a conclusion to keep Rochebere in it's current location, but add in some extra lore:

 

• The city was created towards the end of the 2E, but a natural disaster blocked the path to the city and it became lost, thus the people gradually grew into a less sophisticated and more rural lifestyle.
  
• The path was cleared shortly after the Oblivion crisis, when the Noble family from Kvatch began to help Restore Rochebere to it's original greatness.
  
• The population of the city increased due to the amount of traders, travelers and civil war refugees discovering the previously blocked highway is now accessible again.
  
• At the current time, many people still have not heard of the city, and it is becoming more recognized as the years go on.
  

 

Thanks for the help everyone! :thumbsup: