This IS a Skyrim board, isn't it?

[rcavanah]

So, guys, don't oversimplify my argument here. I'm not saying everybody hold hands and be positive all the time.

 

What I'm saying is, give as much as you take. Put your money where your mouth is by punishing things you don't like with ignorance, but please, don't linger around these things for just as long as the people who DO like them; there is no sane person on this planet who would tell you it's not utterly ridiculous to spend as much time criticizing one thing as you do expressing your love of something else. At the very least, voice your absolute support of the things you like, and add a little something positive to the heap for every negative that you add to it... even if they're not all about the same game. As it is now, the negative severely outweighs the positive, and that's just depressing... no two ways about it.

 

I just don't know why a board dedicated to a thing has to be populated by so many people who don't like that thing. I don't care what anyone says; there's no world in which that makes sense.

[AnimeOtaku102]

[...]

Anyway, none of this really addressed my main point: the immaturity of an audience who demands a change to an existing story. That is bankrupting the artistic validity of the thing, because no other medium is subjected to that. My wife's an artist, and she has received all kinds of criticisms, be they about content, technique, meaning... everything... but she's never been told to change a painting. She's been told to change something on a commission, sure, but that IS just a product, and in many cases, she wound up having to do the opposite of what her own trained artistic talents told her to do; some girl commissioning album art didn't like the color of the sky, so she had to change the color without being allowed to change the color of the reflection on the water, thus making it entirely unrealistic... but it was what the client wanted.

 

A video game is not a commission from the audience who expects that game. There is consumer expectation, but you cannot put yourself in that much debt of expectation and wind up satisfied. And once again, by all means, BE DISSATISFIED! But don't demand changes to the existing work. That's the point at which the audience fails just as badly as the producers of the thing.

[...]

If you don't mind, I'd like to interject here and repeat an argument I made earlier: this is about the story and breaking promises. Bioware promised certain features (as well as not to include two specific features) to the fanbase, these promises (backed up by Bioware's reputation) formed the basis on which a number of customers decided to buy the game. It was part of a marketing campaign to attract more potential clients.

 

To use art as an example, it's not a case of a painter creating an art piece and presenting it to an audience for them to judge (and choosing to buy copies if they like it), it's a painter going out to the public, promising to create a breathtaking landscape painting, charging the audience an entrance fee, then unveiling... a duck. The painter can cry artistic integrity, but there is no integrity in betraying expectations then stubbornly refusing to admit he even knew there was such an expectation despite being the one to create such expectations in the first place.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Anime_Otaku102

[rcavanah]

[...]

Anyway, none of this really addressed my main point: the immaturity of an audience who demands a change to an existing story. That is bankrupting the artistic validity of the thing, because no other medium is subjected to that. My wife's an artist, and she has received all kinds of criticisms, be they about content, technique, meaning... everything... but she's never been told to change a painting. She's been told to change something on a commission, sure, but that IS just a product, and in many cases, she wound up having to do the opposite of what her own trained artistic talents told her to do; some girl commissioning album art didn't like the color of the sky, so she had to change the color without being allowed to change the color of the reflection on the water, thus making it entirely unrealistic... but it was what the client wanted.

 

A video game is not a commission from the audience who expects that game. There is consumer expectation, but you cannot put yourself in that much debt of expectation and wind up satisfied. And once again, by all means, BE DISSATISFIED! But don't demand changes to the existing work. That's the point at which the audience fails just as badly as the producers of the thing.

[...]

If you don't mind, I'd like to interject here and repeat an argument I made earlier: this is about the story and breaking promises. Bioware promised certain features (as well as not to include two specific features) to the fanbase, these promises (backed up by Bioware's reputation) formed the basis on which a number of customers decided to buy the game. It was part of a marketing campaign to attract more potential clients.

 

To use art as an example, it's not a case of a painter creating an art piece and presenting it to an audience for them to judge (and choosing to buy copies if they like it), it's a painter going out to the public, promising to create a breathtaking landscape painting, charging the audience an entrance fee, then unveiling... a duck. The painter can cry artistic integrity, but there is no integrity in betraying expectations then stubbornly refusing to admit he even knew there was such an expectation despite being the one to create such expectations in the first place.

 

And I'll repeat another argument which still hasn't been addressed: That's fine. Be dissatisfied... but move on. I'm not saying their cries of artistic integrity are valid when they're the ones who made these promises; what I'm saying is that there's still a minimal standard of behavior on both sides, and demanding an add-on pack is not going to reverse your dissatisfaction. The damage is done. I'm not belittling their failure, at all, but everyone has to accept it as a failure... they do, and you do. That's life.

 

HAS ANYONE SEEN OR READ MISERY? GAH!!!

Edited January 20, 2013 by rcavanah

[AnimeOtaku102]

And I'll repeat another argument which still hasn't been addressed: That's fine. Be dissatisfied... but move on. I'm not saying their cries of artistic integrity are valid when they're the ones who made these promises; what I'm saying is that there's still a minimal standard of behavior on both sides, and demanding an add-on pack is not going to reverse your dissatisfaction. The damage is done. I'm not belittling their failure, at all, but everyone has to accept it as a failure... they do, and you do. That's life.

Ah, my bad, I still get a little uppity over ME3 simply because I was a Bioware fan for a long, long time. The longer you love something, the harder it is to let go.

[rcavanah]

Don't get me wrong... I understand.

 

Personally, I've come to a point in my life where I'd rather just enjoy something. I'm a Star Wars prequel defender, not because I think they're well-directed, but because they have much more merit than their reputation; movies and books and games are rarely as bad as people say they are. They're still, yunno, the miracle of movies and books and games, superfluous entertainment for we humans who have the privilege of going about our days without constantly having our lives put in danger at the hands of predators. That's kind of amazing, on its own.

 

At worst, it's a gauche argument... however, I'll be damned if somebody tries to tell me that's a bad way to live. Of course, I can't let go of that major difference between the way our culture processes things, and the way I personally process them, so what disappointment certain people get from movies and books and games, I get from those people. I guess it's a zero-sum game, but I prefer it this way to the alternative.

Edited January 20, 2013 by rcavanah

[luzburg]

Don't get me wrong... I understand.

 

Personally, I've come to a point in my life where I'd rather just enjoy something. I'm a Star Wars prequel defender, not because I think they're well-directed, but because they have much more merit than their reputation; movies and books and games are rarely as bad as people say they are. They're still, yunno, the miracle of movies and books and games, superfluous entertainment for we humans who have the privilege of going about our days without constantly having our lives put in danger at the hands of predators. That's kind of amazing, on its own.

 

At worst, it's a gauche argument... however, I'll be damned if somebody tries to tell me that's a bad way to live. Of course, I can't let go of that major difference between the way our culture processes things, and the way I personally process them, so what disappointment certain people get from movies and books and games, I get from those people. I guess it's a zero-sum game, but I prefer it this way to the alternative.

 

Online forums. Don't use them and expect everybody to behave like they would in everyday life.

 

I refer you to the general internet f***wad theory. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GIFT

[rcavanah]

Online forums. Don't use them and expect everybody to behave like they would in everyday life.

 

I refer you to the general internet f***wad theory. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GIFT

 

Yeahhhhh I know. It's essentially a public bathroom. We all have to use it... you'd think that would mean it wouldn't be such a cesspool of filth, but somehow, the opposite is true.

 

I guess I'm just fighting the good fight.

[formalrevya]

*facepalm* This argument is Denser than Grandma's fruitcake.

 

But I'll play your game. As a creative person ((A Comedian, not a famous one by any stretch of the imagination, but I get by)) Here's the artistic process for me when I'm introducing a new joke, ((and yes, there is an art form involved in creating comedy, If you think there isn't, trying telling 15 minutes of jokes you had to make up by yourself)) I test the bit on on some friends, If it doesn't pass their approval, the joke gets scrapped entirely or I rework it as something new. That's my first quality assurance test. Once I'm past that point, I introduce it to audiences, and judging from their reactions one of three things happens. I either scrap it entirely, I tweak it more to get a better reaction, or I keep it in stock for only certain audiences that will appreciate the joke. ((which I test out by their reactions to earlier jokes in the set))

 

People in a comedy audience, are very hypercritical of a comedian's work. If it's not funny, that have no problems expressing it. The benefit to this medium is that I have a chance to change my work around, not something a Game developer or movie maker has. But the bottom line remains the same. I either adapt to the tastes of my audience or I learn to deal with an angry audience. Never at any point do I get the luxury of complaining about my artistic integrity if I get Boo'd off stage ((Had people flinging bottles at my head not even 2 days ago.))

 

What I can do, is critically address the feedback I get. I have to, as an artist, decide whether people are being mean to me just because they didn't like my particular brand of comedy, or if it's because my jokes sucked. If it's the former, Then it's my duty to keep telling those jokes because there's an audience out there that will appreciate them. If it's the latter, It's my duty to bury those jokes in an unmarked grave in a desert because I produced something bad and I shouldn't force others to deal with it just because I think I produced something of value. It doesn't matter what I think. I'm not carving wooden trinkets to decorate my shack in the woods, I'm producing for other people. If I wish to continue doing so, I have to suck it up and roll with the punches.

 

And you know what? The fact that People on the development team didn't like their own product, Absolutely ruins any chances they have of claiming artistic integrity. If they didn't like their product, yet put it out, they're not artists, they're prostitutes. And the Fans had every right to rage.

 

Ha... I used to do standup, when I lived in Atlanta. Spent about a year on it, and I actually stopped because I was trying to quit drinking, and it became a pretty bad environment (as I'm sure you could imagine). Sober, I became a bit more introverted, and found it more difficult to get out there, and eventually just never went back to it. Still a comedy nerd, though.

 

So I know what you're talking about, but personally, I just don't think those processes are all that similar... comedy is developed primarily on stage, in front of people, so there's really no beginning and no end to a bit. If it's a good bit, you continue to refine it, until one day, it's a staple in your act, or you throw out your material to start fresh, but either way, its success has been measured and decided. Maybe only by you, or by the crowd it worked best on, but either way, it's just... very different.

 

Anyway, none of this really addressed my main point: the immaturity of an audience who demands a change to an existing story. That is bankrupting the artistic validity of the thing, because no other medium is subjected to that. My wife's an artist, and she has received all kinds of criticisms, be they about content, technique, meaning... everything... but she's never been told to change a painting. She's been told to change something on a commission, sure, but that IS just a product, and in many cases, she wound up having to do the opposite of what her own trained artistic talents told her to do; some girl commissioning album art didn't like the color of the sky, so she had to change the color without being allowed to change the color of the reflection on the water, thus making it entirely unrealistic... but it was what the client wanted.

 

A video game is not a commission from the audience who expects that game. There is consumer expectation, but you cannot put yourself in that much debt of expectation and wind up satisfied. And once again, by all means, BE DISSATISFIED! But don't demand changes to the existing work. That's the point at which the audience fails just as badly as the producers of the thing.

 

Also, none of this addresses the issue of the fragility of inspiration. I never said the guy in the interview didn't like what he was making (dude... talk about a dense argument). I said it made him doubt the audience he was giving it to. A "pearls before swine" kind of thing, if I may be so crude. I wish I could find the damn thing... now I'm wondering if it was a TED talk. Anyway, I can definitely understand how that crushes inspiration; I just finished writing a novel, and you know what? I shelved it. Not because I don't like it, but because I'm too insecure to put myself out there like that, and then have jaded people on the internet tell me I was all wrong. I didn't write it for those jaded people; I wrote exactly what I wanted to write, to express the thing I needed to express, but I'm STILL vulnerable to all the negativity. The general way that our present culture refuses to nurture creativity in any way just makes me feel like it's a waste of time. EDIT: I guess that wasn't exactly what I meant... what I meant is, the voices of the detractors are infinitely louder than the voices of the supporters. Anyway, if you know a solution to this, by all means, shoot, but you'd be the first to both successfully defend modern hypercriticality AND convince me that it's even worth trying to make something.

 

Anyway, don't you see how it might be biased, being hypercritical of another medium just because you have to put up with hypercriticality from your audience? And besides, you seem perfectly reasonable. As this pertains to Skyrim, I guess just consider that maybe you just aren't the sort of negative person I'm referring to. Never, in my posts, did I condemn all negativity. I only condemned unreasonable, whiny negativity... the people who complain and complain and complain but STILL spend tons of time around this board, doing Skyrim-related things in spite of that vitriol.

 

 

 

When you do something creative, it's always going to be open to negativity from others, because it's infinitely easier to poke holes in someone else's work than it is to put up your own work. This is an unspoken truth of the world. So by all means, get your novel out there. Drown out the white noise of people's bitchiness. If you don't then you've let them win their war and we end up with more useless rehashes of things they know they want, instead of taking risks on things they might enjoy that are at first alien to them. You'll end up with regrets and negative feelings either way you go. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.

 

And Honestly, This is just one of those things I can't adequately convey to you. Play the games. They are well worth the price.You will not regret playing these games. If you only have one or two hours to devote to games, you'll have content for months. When you get to 3, make sure you disable the extended cut DLC. Or don't download it to begin with. And you have to come to your own decision about whether or not the fans where right after that.Until then this discussion Is going to keep running around in circles because we're working off of two different understandings. I'm not saying that after you've played you'll agree with people who wanted a different ending. I'm saying that you can't see our side of things if you haven't played. We just become whiny fanboys ruining games for everyone.

 

 

Also, no, I'm not a negative person. I love Skyrim, I love Mass Effect. Wouldn't have dropped all the money on games and DLC If I didn't mostly agree with the developers.

 

But two things you have to keep in mind. Nothing is above reproach. Doesn't matter how good it is. It's a matter of spewing vitrol vs constructive criticism. and this being a sub folder of a game related forum, of course there's going to be some complaints about certain aspects of a game, and we're going to voice them here because this is a congregation site for other people who have played the games and might want to discuss our opinions.

 

Game Developers have to decide for themselves if the criticisms warrent attention, If they don't, ignore them, just anonymous people taking part in the age old bonding tradition of finding something to mutually hate. If they do, either keep them in mind when making your next game, or expect to hear more complaints.

 

On the other hand, people who come to this part of the forum to specifically talk about how much better oblivion is, and only to point that out, need to keep to the oblivion section and leave us alone. You'll be surrounded by people who agree with you, and you won't have to deal with any internet induced rage spasms.

[Kraeten]

They failed. However, the audience also failed as consumers by demanding changes in the way that they did. Maybe it's not 100% art, but treating it as 100% product will never yield satisfaction. -Snip-

So you'd rather treat it as the complete reverse? Look, these games are advertised and sold for a considerable amount of money. Indeed they may not be 100% a product, but I guarantee you that if we could objectively stamp down the numbers they would come out to be more product than art.Maybe it wasn't completely justified to demand changes, but then it was Bioware who ultimately relented. The petitions to change the ending were hardly legally binding gestures of outrage.

The current disappointment with the loose ends will be greatly outweighed by the disappointment with content which is only created to satisfy the demands of an angry mob.

Never mind the fact that the game already feels uninspired for the most part, the people frustrated with the story don't have the numbers to even get Bethesda's attention anyway.

When an audience bankrupts the inspiration of an industry by making jilted, desperate demands for a change that is destined to be unsatisfying, nobody is helped. It reduces the value of the entire industry.

When a development team treats its consumers like crap what do you think that does to the value of the industry? Bioware made a terrible ending that did a disservice to not only the franchise they themselves built, but it did a disservice to their audience/consumers. Bioware relented and elaborated on the ending to regain the support of their fans, or at the very least they did so not to lose any more. Whether or not that ONE instance becomes a domino effect is ultimately up to the development teams and their publisher overlords.

If you're creative at all, just consider it (and if you're not, try to set your position as a consumer aside, and imagine that you are): how would you feel, making something for an audience that seems to instantly take your groundbreaking developments for granted, and only demands more without appreciating what you've created so far, like a rude child?

Ahem in case you missed my signature I've shared mods here, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't question my creativity. As for dealing with ingrates....even disrespectful people might still speak some sense. Some people who've given me grief I just flat out ignored but in more cases than not their criticism helped me improve my work. That isn't to excuse rudeness mind you but merely pointing out the fact that such demands aren't entirely without value.

Would you be excited about delivering your product to that audience? I know I wouldn't.

Except these people do not make up the majority of your audience.

Maybe this is too new-agey for some of you, but there is such a thing as audience responsibility; we don't have to like things that are bad, but we do have to act responsibly with our demands and nurture creativity... that is, if we want a future full of better games. -snip-

If by new-agey you mean whiny, then yes I'm afraid your sermon is too much. What happened to Bioware was a one time incident and hasn't even come close to occurring elsewhere. It wasn't the start of some disturbing trend or anything else worthy of concern. If you're really concerned for the future of video games, you should turn your attention to the fact the entire industry is being swallowed up by a precious few publishers who most certainly do look at the whole process of game development as a simple cash-in.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Kraeten

[rcavanah]

First: I wasn't questioning your creativity; just saying I don't know what brain-type or career style you lean towards.

 

Second: Just refer to my clarification post. I've spent too much time arguing about what wasn't really my point at all. What I'm saying is, if you're going to add negativity where you feel it's necessary, then just make sure you're also adding an equal share of sincere positivity to the world when appropriate. Don't speak your disappointment about one thing louder than your appreciation of another. And I'm not saying you don't do that; I can't know, because we've only talked about a thing you didn't like. If you do, great. But this topic was started on a night when, especially at that particular moment, it seemed the negative comments were outweighing the positive ones (and the positive ones mostly seemed to be people frustratedly defending their positions against the negative ones, thus tainting the whole thing).

 

And, I do see this complaints vs. praise dichotomy as an overarching part of our culture right now. It's something I'm particularly sensitive to, and discussed with lots of people lately. That near-metaphysical societal overtone does drain or generate inspiration.