CyrusAmell Posted January 23, 2013 Author Share Posted January 23, 2013 (edited) As the original OP I feel I should add me final 2 cents for my reasoning. There is a lot to fault the Empire with, true, and if this were simply a matter of Imperial Control versus an Independent Skyrim then I would be far less sympathetic to the former. It doesn't help that they shoved me onto a headsman's block atop the body of the first man to go before me. That said, much of my views and actions are shaped by my hatred of the Thalmor, including my originally hostile stance against the Empire. However, I feel as though if the Thalmor were given these same choices, disregarding their desire for an indecisive civil war, it's seems obvious they would prefer an independent Skyrim that is hostile to the Empire. The Empire would have to worry about it's northern borders and the Thalmor would not have to worry about nord levies being raised against them. This doesn't mean that an independent Skyrim couldn't kick down the doors to Alinor, just that the Thalmor fear such a chance less than a united Empire causing them trouble. In addition, I have a few other reasons for ultimately siding with the Empire. Infrastructure Does Ulfric express a desire to ally with other nations against the Thalmor? Yes, yes he does. He explicitly states as much after his victory in Solitude: "There will be peace for a time, during which we must rebuild Skyrim into the land it once was. Strong. Self-reliant. The center of mankind. Because getting rid of the Empire was only half the problem. Soon, the elves will again seek to rule the world. We must ready ourselves to fight them. For it will be Skyrim that shall lead Tamriel in those dark days, when the fate of the world is finally determined." Yet I do not feel that Ulfric would be able to do this as easily as the Empire might. The Empire already has the infrastructure to begin a war with the Thalmor, and their standing forces far surpass that of what Ulfric could bring to bear. The Stormcloak Rebellion included only one Legion, there are more in Cyrodil and abroad not to mention the availability of their own navy (all we saw was the Emperor's ship and the East Empire's own private vessel, but that's something). There's also the Empire's wealth to consider, which would be necessary for a protracted conflict. Diversity The diversity of the Legion is also fascinating to me. There are Nords, Imperials, Bretons and Redguards amongst their common troops and even two elven generals with Fasendil and Sevan Telendas. Fasendil is by far the best Legate of the bunch - if you need to convince people to join the Legion, it would help if you pointed them in his direction to speak with him before making a decision. Orc's are suppose to often join the Legion, and while they are not represented in the game save for a few veterans like Ghorbash the Iron Hand it only adds to the ideals of such a diverse force. The Stormcloaks come up dreadfully short, all their camp commanders have the exact same dialogue and not a single one is anything other than a Nord Male (where are the ranking Daughters of Skyrim?). Even that one Imperial who says "Ulfric has the right of it" helps only a little. Ralof is certainly an open minded Nord, especially in his dealings with the player (his voice actor also did a better job than Hadvar's), but he is the exception to the otherwise grumpy and narrow minded Stormcloaks. An Imperial victory isn't perfect, true. The Thalmor are still strutting about, and I in particular would worry about their proximity to my home in Solitude. Precisely how long would the Dragonborn, who may also be a Thane and a Legate (among other things), last if the Thalmor wanted to press charges and begin an investigation into a certain incident at Northwatch Keep and the many myriad disappearances of their Justiciar patrols? Certainly the Dragonborn's status can protect him or her, but this is the same Empire that sold out the Blades. Our best hope is that the conflict escalates (read: new DLC) and the Dragonborn can help rid the world of the Thalmor once and for all. You wouldn't have this worry at all if you went Stormcloak, but that is the price to pay if the player wishes to look at things in the long term. Edited January 23, 2013 by CyrusAmell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidbossVyers Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 While there may not be any nonhuman soldiers, besides the player character, in the Stormcloak army, note that several Stormcloak Jarls have elven subjects, such as Anuriel and Wylandriah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RighthandofSithis Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Infrastructure Does Ulfric express a desire to ally with other nations against the Thalmor? Yes, yes he does. He explicitly states as much after his victory in Solitude: "There will be peace for a time, during which we must rebuild Skyrim into the land it once was. Strong. Self-reliant. The center of mankind. Because getting rid of the Empire was only half the problem. Soon, the elves will again seek to rule the world. We must ready ourselves to fight them. For it will be Skyrim that shall lead Tamriel in those dark days, when the fate of the world is finally determined." Yet I do not feel that Ulfric would be able to do this as easily as the Empire might. The Empire already has the infrastructure to begin a war with the Thalmor, and their standing forces far surpass that of what Ulfric could bring to bear. The Stormcloak Rebellion included only one Legion, there are more in Cyrodil and abroad not to mention the availability of their own navy (all we saw was the Emperor's ship and the East Empire's own private vessel, but that's something). There's also the Empire's wealth to consider, which would be necessary for a protracted conflict. Well, as I so often state, Cicero and his journals, corroborated by a few comments from some Imperials, suggest that Cyrodiil is suffering from sever gang wars (or other forms of 'violence') in several cities. With little (other than the assumption that time heals all) suggesting the contrary, and considering the decaying state of the Empire (Hammerfell left, Skyrim is in a civil war, and what's left of Morrowind hates the Empire, and suggestions that the Illiac Bay is subject to severe piracy), I would question the infrastructure of the Empire, and assert that an independent Skyrim would not have to carry the burdens of the dying Empire, and that Skyrim should declare Independence now, before it comes crashing down with the Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) Well, as I so often state, Cicero and his journals, corroborated by a few comments from some Imperials, suggest that Cyrodiil is suffering from sever gang wars (or other forms of 'violence') in several cities. With little (other than the assumption that time heals all) suggesting the contrary, and considering the decaying state of the Empire (Hammerfell left, Skyrim is in a civil war, and what's left of Morrowind hates the Empire, and suggestions that the Illiac Bay is subject to severe piracy), I would question the infrastructure of the Empire, and assert that an independent Skyrim would not have to carry the burdens of the dying Empire, and that Skyrim should declare Independence now, before it comes crashing down with the Empire. And has often been stated in return, most of these circumstances are part of normal practice in the Empire. Even during its height, the provinces openly warred with eachother, the Illiac Bay has long been the hunting ground for pirates and brigands, the Dunmer have always hated the Empire, and open revolts amongst the Cyrodillic city-states aren't particularly uncommon. The premise that these circumstances paint the Empire as dieing clash with the Empires history of always having these kinds of problems. If it's dieing now, it's been dieing since the day it was founded (lets face it, Tiber Septim had to put down several rebellions while he ruled) and because of that, we could still be looking at centuries before it actually colapses. The jury is still out, and at best it's 50/50. Plus, at least the Empire pretends to be civil. Edited January 25, 2013 by Lachdonin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RighthandofSithis Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Well, as I so often state, Cicero and his journals, corroborated by a few comments from some Imperials, suggest that Cyrodiil is suffering from sever gang wars (or other forms of 'violence') in several cities. With little (other than the assumption that time heals all) suggesting the contrary, and considering the decaying state of the Empire (Hammerfell left, Skyrim is in a civil war, and what's left of Morrowind hates the Empire, and suggestions that the Illiac Bay is subject to severe piracy), I would question the infrastructure of the Empire, and assert that an independent Skyrim would not have to carry the burdens of the dying Empire, and that Skyrim should declare Independence now, before it comes crashing down with the Empire. And has often been stated in return, most of these circumstances are part of normal practice in the Empire. Even during its height, the provinces openly warred with eachother, the Illiac Bay has long been the hunting ground for pirates and brigands, the Dunmer have always hated the Empire, and open revolts amongst the Cyrodillic city-states aren't particularly uncommon. The premise that these circumstances paint the Empire as dieing clash with the Empires history of always having these kinds of problems. If it's dieing now, it's been dieing since the day it was founded (lets face it, Tiber Septim had to put down several rebellions while he ruled) and because of that, we could still be looking at centuries before it actually colapses. The jury is still out, and at best it's 50/50. Plus, at least the Empire pretends to be civil. it seemed from Morrowind that most Dunmer houses didn't really care about the Empire (Save Indoril). Hlaalu endorsed them, and became prominent as a result, Telvanni has never, and never will care, and Redoran seemed content. I've never heard about the Cyrodiilic cities revolting. But nonetheless, following the Great War, which (as I have stated previously), it would seem that the Empire's treasury had been spent. Ongoing Drug Wars would have defiantly hindered the rebuilding project (even made things worse). Now, the whole situation still seems to me to be one of a textbook example of a collapsing Empire. A young, rising rival state, claims of corruption, increasing criminal activity, a severe, recent war (fought in the homeland), with subjugated lands revolting for independence. Russia, Britain, Rome, Byzantium all fell under similar circumstances. Even an Imperial Jarl, Brina Merilis, states that the Empire is facing many problems. And lets keep in mind, Tiber Septim was in a different situation. He was the rising star, he had conquered all of his enemies. He was like Julius Caesar/Augustus. He had the momentum of a rising Empire behind him. Looking generally at Empires (or any other significant society), they rise with great promise, expand for a while, enter an equilibrium, begin to slowly loose ground (with cirtain victories and losses), then come into contact with a severe threat and die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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