Education Needed on Skeletons

[Apis4]

OK, so I see a lot of mods, armour mods especially, sometimes followers, that require XMPSSE, and seemingly this is a hard requirement even for mods that are offering non-Physics/Animation options.

 

I am wondering WHY? I can guess the Skeleton allocates values and variables for Body Slide, and a frameworkl for advanced custom animations in something like FNIS that cant be done with Vanilla bodies.... but what else?

 

Why does stuff that doesnt seem to be related to that require it?

 

Like when I look at an armour, that has a non-physics UNP option, that has now Body Slide either, as one of the files available, why does it still require XMPSSE? Why would a Sword that is available just as a mesha and texture change, without any additional animations, still require it?

 

XMPSSE seems like it is simply a tool for allowing Body Slide versatility in Race Menu to be put in to objects like armours, or to allow physics animations or custom weapon animations..... or... like... s3x animations like Flower Girls.

 

Am I wrong in this?

 

Just seems like I am seeing a whole bunch of stuff that shouldnt need it, still saying it needs it.

 

Same with RaceMenu, though I have not seen that as much.

 

If someone could answer this it would make things make a lot more sense to me in my modding endeavours.

[anjenthedog]

The skeleton defines how parts of the body will be able to move, both in terms of mudane locomotion, and its response to acceleration and collision (jiggle, wiggle, wubba, whatever) via its virtual-weighted moment arms, which are then controlled via CBPC and/or SMP physics.

 

This is regardless of any "untoward" behaviors you're simply not interested in (gross!) That's your choice, but having a nude body or a penis or whatever doesn't dictate how that item is used or viewed (for instance, if your modesty is such that you care not for nude bodies, you can use the never-nude body style) . But if you don't have the framework (skeleton) to support newer animations (for instance, something as benign as a more gruesome kill move or a better way to spray hell fire into some opponent, or just to make shooting your bow and arrow to slaughter unsuspecting rabbits and deer and goats and so forth in an immersive life as a peaceful hunter) look cooler, you're not going to be able to use them if they require the XPMSSE skeleton to work...

 

To dispel some of your confusion about what a skeleton is, it might be instructive for you to open the skeleton in Nifscope to see what a skyrim "skeleton" really looks like. It's a huge "molecule" built of rotational vertices and virtually-weighted globules, where these weighted elements are attached (not physically, but virtually) to the body mesh defined in Bodylslide (and modified by racemenu if used) at various points or regions on the body mesh (ex: breasts, thighs, butt, etc), and it really doesn't resemble a human skeleton at all. (well except maybe in the most remote of ways)

 

example 3BBB (female) skeleton in nifscope

 

 

I already tried to explain this to you in another post. Bodyslide and racemenu effectively only adjust the mesh that defines the physical shape of the body - although afaik, they do effectively modify the skeleton's segment lengths, or at least whatever "strings" are used to connect various nodes (*some of the dots) to various points on the mesh - ie, the bodyslide works on the homonid shaped, flexible screen that is placed around the skeleton, and to which the body texture is shrink-wrapped. (technically not "shrink wrapped", just wrapped, but good enough for illustrative purposes) . In fact, all that bodyslide outputs is mesh files and optionally, racemenu bindings (build morphs) so it can produce "real time" change to the mesh from racemenu.

 

One last thing. Not scolding or anything, but generally speaking, a prerequisite support module, also known as a "dependency", and as defined as a dependency by a given mod in its "requirements" tab, (for instance, some armor that provides 3BBB support), is a mandatory installation, because the mod was designed with bindings to that support module listed as a requirement. Period. The XPMSSE skeleton (for SE) is foundational to most of the more recent improvements in player design and in both player and NPC behavior and while technically "not a requirement" for the game, is a SOP addition when modding the game beyond the simplest of additions... My advise would is simple and blunt. Either deal with it or don't download them.

 

TBH, I'm not sure why you're resistant to installing the XPMSSE skeleton in the first place.

 

edited for content

[Algabar]

In addition to the above:

 

XPMSSE is much more than just a "tool that allows for Bodyslide and physics". In fact, it's the base for most custom animations and also for a lot of custom armours and clothes.

 

I'm not an expert on clothes/armors, but AFAIK these need to be "rigged" (adjusted/fit) to a skeleton during creation. This goes for every kind of armor/clothing, not just outfits with physics. Even if you neither want BodySlide nor physics, you probably want an armour that looks like it's moving with the body underneath. Therefore if an armour/clothing mod is optimized for XPMSSE, you should install this skeleton - even if you don't use physics.

 

Most weapons themselves don't necessarily need a specific skeleton to work. But if you want to use mods, that allow for a specific placement of your wepons on your character (e.g. double swords on your back or two sheathed weapons on your belt), the mods you'd use again very likely need XMPSSE to place the weapons. Mod authors often design their weapons to be compatible with such mods and to work e.g. with "Dual Sheath Redux", which can make XPMSSE a requirement.

 

XPMSSE has become the "standard". It doesn't do any harm. Simply install it and you're good to go. If you wish, you could call it a "framework mod" - a mod a lot of other mods are based on.

 

On a side note: Racemenu is another "framework mod". OFC it's necessary for a lot of mods regarding character creation and character customization, but also e.g. for the "Racemenu High Heels system". It's maybe not as essential as XPMSSE, but if you haven't really good reasons not to install Racemenu, it's something you should simply install.

 

I know sometimes less experienced users complain about prerequisites. "Why do I have to download x and z, if I really only want y?" Well, "standard" mods save individual modders a lot of time - and help to keep mods compatible with each other. It's much "easier" (although in reality still a lot of work) to create content for already existing standards and frameworks than to always build everything from scratch. In fact it's good, that there are some "basic" mods other modders can rely on.

[Apis4]

The skeleton defines how parts of the body will be able to move, both in terms of mudane locomotion, and its response to acceleration and collision (jiggle, wiggle, wubba, whatever) via its virtual-weighted moment arms, which are then controlled via CBPC and/or SMP physics.

 

This is regardless of any "untoward" behaviors you're simply not interested in (gross!) That's your choice, but having a nude body or a penis or whatever doesn't dictate how that item is used or viewed (for instance, if your modesty is such that you care not for nude bodies, you can use the never-nude body style) . But if you don't have the framework (skeleton) to support newer animations (for instance, something as benign as a more gruesome kill move or a better way to spray hell fire into some opponent, or just to make shooting your bow and arrow to slaughter unsuspecting rabbits and deer and goats and so forth in an immersive life as a peaceful hunter) look cooler, you're not going to be able to use them if they require the XPMSSE skeleton to work...

 

To dispel some of your confusion about what a skeleton is, it might be instructive for you to open the skeleton in Nifscope to see what a skyrim "skeleton" really looks like. It's a huge "molecule" built of rotational vertices and virtually-weighted globules, where these weighted elements are attached (not physically, but virtually) to the body mesh defined in Bodylslide (and modified by racemenu if used) at various points or regions on the body mesh (ex: breasts, thighs, butt, etc), and it really doesn't resemble a human skeleton at all. (well except maybe in the most remote of ways)

 

example 3BBB (female) skeleton in nifscope

example_3BBB_skeleton.jpg

 

I already tried to explain this to you in another post. Bodyslide and racemenu effectively only adjust the mesh that defines the physical shape of the body - although afaik, they do effectively modify the skeleton's segment lengths, or at least whatever "strings" are used to connect various nodes (*some of the dots) to various points on the mesh - ie, the bodyslide works on the homonid shaped, flexible screen that is placed around the skeleton, and to which the body texture is shrink-wrapped. (technically not "shrink wrapped", just wrapped, but good enough for illustrative purposes) . In fact, all that bodyslide outputs is mesh files and optionally, racemenu bindings (build morphs) so it can produce "real time" change to the mesh from racemenu.

 

One last thing. Not scolding or anything, but generally speaking, a prerequisite support module, also known as a "dependency", and as defined as a dependency by a given mod in its "requirements" tab, (for instance, some armor that provides 3BBB support), is a mandatory installation, because the mod was designed with bindings to that support module listed as a requirement. Period. The XPMSSE skeleton (for SE) is foundational to most of the more recent improvements in player design and in both player and NPC behavior and while technically "not a requirement" for the game, is a SOP addition when modding the game beyond the simplest of additions... My advise would is simple and blunt. Either deal with it or don't download them.

 

TBH, I'm not sure why you're resistant to installing the XPMSSE skeleton in the first place.

 

edited for content

 

I have some idea of what meshes look like, and coded nodes for virtual weight, my question was WHY it was necessary for anything NOT physics related, and since the base game 'Skeleton' is perfectly capable of managing meshes already in the game and UNP and CBBE non Physics armours and the meshes themselves..... from everything I've read in your reply, my conclusion is it is NOT necessary....modders choose to work with the improved skeleton. But that tells me a reverse engineering endeavour to redo the meshes for a static non physics, animation free, base, ergo vanilla, or even UNP or CBBE without Physics is possible. Check the attitude though, I prefer NO answer than one loaded with such.

 

Yet, I'll indulge you, and answer your last question.

 

I am not interested in FNIS, as it is VERY MUCH pushing the boundaries, and is no longer supported by THE CREATOR... no issue with the Nexus Mods folk having it, but that makes a massive difference to me. More, I am not a fan of having to 'run' anything, any time I want to download, redo, or initialize anything. It's a lot of effort for sh*t I do not want and will not use (and I dont have any qualms with it morally, I think censorship should be abolished except for hate speech and sedition), because that's not what Skyrim is for. I can go download 20 different f*ck simulator games to play out any 100 different perversions that are MUCH better suited for that than SSE.

 

Nor do I want RaceMenu, it will just be a pointless programe taking up space on my computer that I will never use, as I am totally satisfied with male character creation in the vanilla SSE engine. As I have no plans to ever play as a 'Hot chick' and dont understand boys today seeming to always want to, and since it cannot be used in game as an NPC redesign tool, the way you can edit NPCs in FO4, then it's an entirely pointless and useless mod to me.

 

Thus, I am never going to DL them.

 

THAT"S why I wont Download XMPSSE..... it forces me to download two requirements I will NEVER use, and dont like.

 

I guess I will just have to learn how to convert any armours I like to Non-XMPSSE versions for my UNP myself.

 

Good day to you.

[Apis4]

In addition to the above:

 

XPMSSE is much more than just a "tool that allows for Bodyslide and physics". In fact, it's the base for most custom animations and also for a lot of custom armours and clothes.

 

I'm not an expert on clothes/armors, but AFAIK these need to be "rigged" (adjusted/fit) to a skeleton during creation. This goes for every kind of armor/clothing, not just outfits with physics. Even if you neither want BodySlide nor physics, you probably want an armour that looks like it's moving with the body underneath. Therefore if an armour/clothing mod is optimized for XPMSSE, you should install this skeleton - even if you don't use physics.

 

Most weapons themselves don't necessarily need a specific skeleton to work. But if you want to use mods, that allow for a specific placement of your wepons on your character (e.g. double swords on your back or two sheathed weapons on your belt), the mods you'd use again very likely need XMPSSE to place the weapons. Mod authors often design their weapons to be compatible with such mods and to work e.g. with "Dual Sheath Redux", which can make XPMSSE a requirement.

 

XPMSSE has become the "standard". It doesn't do any harm. Simply install it and you're good to go. If you wish, you could call it a "framework mod" - a mod a lot of other mods are based on.

 

On a side note: Racemenu is another "framework mod". OFC it's necessary for a lot of mods regarding character creation and character customization, but also e.g. for the "Racemenu High Heels system". It's maybe not as essential as XPMSSE, but if you haven't really good reasons not to install Racemenu, it's something you should simply install.

 

I know sometimes less experienced users complain about prerequisites. "Why do I have to download x and z, if I really only want y?" Well, "standard" mods save individual modders a lot of time - and help to keep mods compatible with each other. It's much "easier" (although in reality still a lot of work) to create content for already existing standards and frameworks than to always build everything from scratch. In fact it's good, that there are some "basic" mods other modders can rely on.

 

 

The fact that you CAN get UNP and CBBE armours that DONT rely on XMPSSE tells me that it just something Modders to be cutting edge.... but I dont like the edge, unless pushing people off it maybe.... so yeah, I dont think it's good.

 

As for my reasons, see above.

 

I will just learn to convert back. It will definitely be possible. I am not about to download two waste of space mods just to get XMPSSE (and High heels in a Medieval fantasy world? Bwhahahahahahahahahahahahaha, hard pass).

[anjenthedog]

Ok dude. You do you. :facepalm:

[RaidenWhite]

 

The skeleton defines how parts of the body will be able to move, both in terms of mudane locomotion, and its response to acceleration and collision (jiggle, wiggle, wubba, whatever) via its virtual-weighted moment arms, which are then controlled via CBPC and/or SMP physics.

 

This is regardless of any "untoward" behaviors you're simply not interested in (gross!) That's your choice, but having a nude body or a penis or whatever doesn't dictate how that item is used or viewed (for instance, if your modesty is such that you care not for nude bodies, you can use the never-nude body style) . But if you don't have the framework (skeleton) to support newer animations (for instance, something as benign as a more gruesome kill move or a better way to spray hell fire into some opponent, or just to make shooting your bow and arrow to slaughter unsuspecting rabbits and deer and goats and so forth in an immersive life as a peaceful hunter) look cooler, you're not going to be able to use them if they require the XPMSSE skeleton to work...

 

To dispel some of your confusion about what a skeleton is, it might be instructive for you to open the skeleton in Nifscope to see what a skyrim "skeleton" really looks like. It's a huge "molecule" built of rotational vertices and virtually-weighted globules, where these weighted elements are attached (not physically, but virtually) to the body mesh defined in Bodylslide (and modified by racemenu if used) at various points or regions on the body mesh (ex: breasts, thighs, butt, etc), and it really doesn't resemble a human skeleton at all. (well except maybe in the most remote of ways)

 

example 3BBB (female) skeleton in nifscope

example_3BBB_skeleton.jpg

 

I already tried to explain this to you in another post. Bodyslide and racemenu effectively only adjust the mesh that defines the physical shape of the body - although afaik, they do effectively modify the skeleton's segment lengths, or at least whatever "strings" are used to connect various nodes (*some of the dots) to various points on the mesh - ie, the bodyslide works on the homonid shaped, flexible screen that is placed around the skeleton, and to which the body texture is shrink-wrapped. (technically not "shrink wrapped", just wrapped, but good enough for illustrative purposes) . In fact, all that bodyslide outputs is mesh files and optionally, racemenu bindings (build morphs) so it can produce "real time" change to the mesh from racemenu.

 

One last thing. Not scolding or anything, but generally speaking, a prerequisite support module, also known as a "dependency", and as defined as a dependency by a given mod in its "requirements" tab, (for instance, some armor that provides 3BBB support), is a mandatory installation, because the mod was designed with bindings to that support module listed as a requirement. Period. The XPMSSE skeleton (for SE) is foundational to most of the more recent improvements in player design and in both player and NPC behavior and while technically "not a requirement" for the game, is a SOP addition when modding the game beyond the simplest of additions... My advise would is simple and blunt. Either deal with it or don't download them.

 

TBH, I'm not sure why you're resistant to installing the XPMSSE skeleton in the first place.

I have also heard about some litigation about this fashion, which has caused a stir among gamers and owners of the development. I reviewed these lawsuits in my essay, which helped me write a service https://assignmentbro.com/us/law-assignment-help that specializes in writing homework law in general and essays in particular.

 

edited for content

 

I have some idea of what meshes look like, and coded nodes for virtual weight, my question was WHY it was necessary for anything NOT physics related, and since the base game 'Skeleton' is perfectly capable of managing meshes already in the game and UNP and CBBE non Physics armours and the meshes themselves..... from everything I've read in your reply, my conclusion is it is NOT necessary....modders choose to work with the improved skeleton. But that tells me a reverse engineering endeavour to redo the meshes for a static non physics, animation free, base, ergo vanilla, or even UNP or CBBE without Physics is possible. Check the attitude though, I prefer NO answer than one loaded with such.

 

Yet, I'll indulge you, and answer your last question.

 

I am not interested in FNIS, as it is VERY MUCH pushing the boundaries, and is no longer supported by THE CREATOR... no issue with the Nexus Mods folk having it, but that makes a massive difference to me. More, I am not a fan of having to 'run' anything, any time I want to download, redo, or initialize anything. It's a lot of effort for sh*t I do not want and will not use (and I dont have any qualms with it morally, I think censorship should be abolished except for hate speech and sedition), because that's not what Skyrim is for. I can go download 20 different f*ck simulator games to play out any 100 different perversions that are MUCH better suited for that than SSE.

 

Nor do I want RaceMenu, it will just be a pointless programe taking up space on my computer that I will never use, as I am totally satisfied with male character creation in the vanilla SSE engine. As I have no plans to ever play as a 'Hot chick' and dont understand boys today seeming to always want to, and since it cannot be used in game as an NPC redesign tool, the way you can edit NPCs in FO4, then it's an entirely pointless and useless mod to me.

 

Thus, I am never going to DL them.

 

THAT"S why I wont Download XMPSSE..... it forces me to download two requirements I will NEVER use, and dont like.

 

I guess I will just have to learn how to convert any armours I like to Non-XMPSSE versions for my UNP myself.

 

Good day to you.

 

interesting idea, thanks for sharing it.

Edited October 25, 2020 by RaidenWhite

[VulcanTourist]

 

Education Needed on Skeletons

From the direction this conversation has taken, apparently the goal was to educate US about the (lack of) need for skeletons rather than request it....