Brows - using different normal map path

[Hvergelmer]

Hello Nexus.

 

I recently released my eyebrow replacer mod that replace the vanilla textures with high resolution hand painted ones. To begin with I went with the vanilla method of using one normal map (both genders has it's own) on all brows by merging all of them together. While this is a very simple and usable method, it is not entirely desirable for me and I wanted to give each brow it's own normal map for that extra detail and realism. With the first release of Brows I also included a bunch of additional brows of my own design and gave them their own normal map - I just never realized until yesterday while working on a large update for the mod, that giving the brows it's own normal map within it's Texture Set (in the CK) it doesn't change a thing. It still uses the default vanilla texture. Unfortunately I just never noticed this until I deleted my edit of the vanilla default normal map and noticed in game that the brows looked awful, and then it was already too late, I already HAD created all the normal maps.

 

http://lthot.dk/har/help/1.jpg

Img #1: Here you see my Texture Sets, all correctly created and prepared with the light and dark variants. All is good.

 

http://lthot.dk/har/help/2.jpg

Img #2: For the purpose of example I picked one of my non vanilla brows.

All paths are correct and the diffuse map show up properly in game. The normal map does not despite the path being correct as indicated with the shown correct normal map in the preview.

 

http://lthot.dk/har/help/3.jpg

Img #3: Detail of correct path. For clarification, this is within the original Skyrim install folder, not a work folder.

 

http://lthot.dk/har/help/4.jpg

Img #4: Here's all the added brow styles, again properly created and prepared with light and dark variants.

 

http://lthot.dk/har/help/5.jpg

Img #5: All brow styles have been properly edited to use the correct Texture Set. Despite this, when loading up Skyrim and selecting brows, all the correct brow styles show up. But none of them use the correct normal map and instead use the default vanilla one.

 

This is most unfortunate and undesirable as I've put too much work into this to turn back now. As a work around, Timmy19992 suggested in my mod comments that I edited the mesh instead to point at the desired normal map. While this method works, it still only uses the selected normal map, despite recognizing (to my understanding at least) that the mesh is supposed to look for the Texture Set applied. This just complicates things even further as it requires me to duplicate the brow mesh for each brow style and correct them all to the proper normal map and once again do additional editing within the CK. In the end this is just more work than it's worth...

 

http://lthot.dk/har/help/6.jpg

Img #6: Here showing the edited mesh within Nifskope. The original vanilla texture is called malebrow1_n.dds so I've redirected it to my malebrow_1.dds specific normal map malebrow_1_n.dds instead. It works, but now all brows use this normal map instead which is undesirable.

 

If anybody knows anything about this, knows a solution instead of the troublesome work-around given I'd more than that happy to hear about it. The last thing I wanna do is going back to use only ONE normal map as in vanilla Skyrim, but I may have to instead of going through that complicated process.

 

Note: I looked for the Mod Author only forums and were unable to find it. I'm fairly certain I'm categorized as worthy to enter that forum as I fulfill the given requirements.

[SydneyB]

Hvergelmir,

 

The easy question first: the mod authors forums are under the Nexus home forums. Direct links:

* General: http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/forum/375-mod-authors/

* Skyrim: http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/forum/442-skyrim-mod-authors/

 

The question about normal maps: every thing seems ok in your settings, but Skyrinm has some bugs and this may be one of them. For example, the CK "deletes" any texture set added to the first person female armour meshes. You can set them once, but when you load the esp file again into the CK they have dissapeared. It works for the 1st person male armour meshes, though. Maybe there is a bug too when working with head parts? Sorry for not being more helpful by now ;)

Have you tried asking on the official forums, too?

[Hvergelmer]

Alright.

As far as I can tell there's no similar bug here as loading up the CK and looking at the brows everything is still a-ok. Same goes for the Texture Sets. All is perfectly fine. Just doesn't seem to want to use anything but the normal map specified within the mesh.

I've already been redirected to the official forums, so I might give that a try.

[VectorPlexus]

This ofc will probably not fix the issue, but, to keep it clearer and more organized, why dont you put your extra eyebrows inside the normal assets folder?

 

Something like: /textures/actors/character/malebrows/Hvergelmir

 

Its painfully to have to always go up and down several folders in order to diagnose it, not to mention its more organized =S

 

Anyway, I had a problem when I was helping a friend doing some custom race so I did the ESP for him (i did both body and hand textureset)... I pointed out the correct files, saved, repacked everything and sent him. He then tested and it didnt worked out. I checked and checked and checked and somehow, the path for the file lost a slash (\) between 2 directories o_O (and no, I didnt changed the dirs in the meantime, I'm positive the CK lost a slash). Since he couldnt find the textures, the game searches on the BSA, and lastly on the nif.

 

I corrected it, saved again and apparently it worked, but maybe that could have happened to you, from the screenshots, we cant really see the full path on the textureset.

 

Edit: well I just downloaded and checked and the path seems to be ok... could you provide a screenshot in the game to show your results and specify which brow are you using? with and without the nif edit. the see more clearly the difference?

 

Here's one more idea... The default brow nifs, are using in the NiTriShapeData node, the settings usually set for armors/clothing and those usually only rely on a single texture/Normal map. Body textures however, can have different normal maps specified by the CK. Try setting the "BS Num UV sets" to "1" and normals to "No". Maybe these settings are controlling the CK/Nif to force them to use the values specified in the nif file, rather then the CK.

Edited February 2, 2013 by VectorPlexus

[Hvergelmer]

This ofc will probably not fix the issue, but, to keep it clearer and more organized, why dont you put your extra eyebrows inside the normal assets folder?

 

Something like: /textures/actors/character/malebrows/Hvergelmir

 

Its painfully to have to always go up and down several folders in order to diagnose it, not to mention its more organized =S

 

Already fixed that myself - but thanks for pointing it out..

 

Anyway, I had a problem when I was helping a friend doing some custom race so I did the ESP for him (i did both body and hand textureset)... I pointed out the correct files, saved, repacked everything and sent him. He then tested and it didnt worked out. I checked and checked and checked and somehow, the path for the file lost a slash (\) between 2 directories o_O (and no, I didnt changed the dirs in the meantime, I'm positive the CK lost a slash). Since he couldnt find the textures, the game searches on the BSA, and lastly on the nif.

 

I corrected it, saved again and apparently it worked, but maybe that could have happened to you, from the screenshots, we cant really see the full path on the textureset.

 

I've double checked everything several times, the paths are correct.

 

Edit: well I just downloaded and checked and the path seems to be ok... could you provide a screenshot in the game to show your results and specify which brow are you using? with and without the nif edit. the see more clearly the difference?

 

Don't think that is necessary. I obviously checked ALL my brow styles, each with a different normal maps and they all end use the same default vanilla one (my own edited one or the vanilla if I deleted my edit). The difference between my .nif edit and the vanilla .nif is that the edited use the new normal map instead, but behave in the same manner (all brows use the new normal map instead). All this stands very clear to me, so I think screenshots here are completely irrelevant and you'll just have to take my word for it.

 

Here's one more idea... The default brow nifs, are using in the NiTriShapeData node, the settings usually set for armors/clothing and those usually only rely on a single texture/Normal map. Body textures however, can have different normal maps specified by the CK. Try setting the "BS Num UV sets" to "1" and normals to "No". Maybe these settings are controlling the CK/Nif to force them to use the values specified in the nif file, rather then the CK.

 

This is worth a try. Now that you downloaded my mod, did you test it yourself?

[VectorPlexus]

Yes ofc I tested it... thats why I was asking for a screenie. Its not that I doubt your word, its only that is very hard to see the normals on the eyebrows at all =)

 

Anyway, I built a new mod for testing purposes, and instead of using the malebrows.nif, I used the malebody instead to replace the nif in the CK form BrowsMaleHumanoid01 (removed any TRI file reference, but those are only for morph targets), so I could have a better look at the normals, and this is what I found:

 

- Replaced the malebody.nif in BrowsMaleHumanoid01 with no edits to the nif: Body showed with the texture set by BrowsMaleHumanoid01 and not those specified by the nif, otherwise I would see abs in the body.

 

- Edited only the normal map in the TextureSet HeadBrowHumanMale01 with 2 different normal maps: normals showed with both maps, different locations, so the specified path on the nif file, is irrelevant like I previously stated. It only showed the one specified in the NIF when I removed the file that was set to use in the CK from its location.

 

Also... I had CTDs whenever I used a DDS outside the characters folder... :rolleyes: ... so... not only for organization sake, but also to avoid CTDs and other oddities, always chose to organize the files within the Character folder :wallbash: and I'm sorry for the smilies, but lately I've seen a lot of mods doing that, creating random custom folders just in the first "meshes" and "textures" level, and I see no point in doing that. From my perspective, if Bethesda is using a specific way to organize assets, modders should comply to that. Its clearer and cleaner. Maybe its just my OCD here, but thats the way I see it. I'm glad you corrected that anyway. :thumbsup:

 

This proves at least that the method described by Timmy19992 is pointless and useless. It also proves that the problem is not the CK, but rather how the nif's settings and shader are set to work in the nif itself. So next step, I copied the malebrows.nif shader to the malebody.nif. Doing so, while previewing in the CK, the body got a black tint semi-transparent look, texture was visible, no sign of the normals. In game doesnt even appear. Also tried to make an empty texture, and using the malebrows.nif, cleared its NiAlphaProperty, and changed its normal map path to use another normal. I saw no evidence that it was using any normal map at all (and thats why I asked you for a screenie in the first place, because at least for me, I'm not getting any normals whatsoever in the eyebrows)

 

This is as far as I'm able to go for you to diagnose your problem. So, if I were you, I'd go over to the NifSkope forums, and try to figure out what settings in the NIF (maybe specifically in the NiTriShapeData, BSLightingShaderProperty and NiAlphaProperty) you should use to fix it, because it is clearly some setting in the NIF and not the CK.