New Power armour wip

[Seviche]

All I'm saying is, trying to pass #2 as European power armour is not Fallouty, because Europe did not have powered armour.

 

Um, the European Commonwealth collapsed in 2060, dissolving into a continent wrought by civil war, with no resources to spare for any kind of power armor research. Only US and China had the resources, time and technology, and only the former was able to create powered armour, deploying the first suit in 2067 in Anchorage.

Yes, but war (and pride/ ego) makes countries do things that we would think to be quite stupid. You know, like North Korea. They're starving, have no economy worth speaking of, yet they have Nukes. It would be quite fluffy for a country to have their own power-armor development program, and it would have been just as reasonable for a member of the EU to have an independent power-armor program for any number of reasons. Lucky for us that the European conflict isn't heavily documented, so there's few hard and fast rules we have to follow besides "It's a war-torn place and nobody vacations there anymore."

 

Merely because Fallout hasn't said specifically that there were no non-US power-armor programs means we can assume that there were some. Heck, China was certainly working on their own version (see; WW I and the tank race) and Japan most certainly had prototypes in a testing phase if not ready for deployment.

 

Why must everybody assume that silence or a lack of documentation means "no way" when it comes to new things? Remember, Fallout is about what is happening in the United States of America after a nuclear war. If "Nobody is sure about who started the nuclear exchange..." then it stands to reason that there's really very little we can be sure of in regards to actual history concerning the FO universe. All we have is bits and pieces. We get to make up the rest. :thumbsup:

 

Well, we can be sure that the Vault-Tec corporation is evil and needs to be nuked again. Just to be sure they never rise again...

 

Oh, and I like the 2nd helmet better. A two-stage helmet looks wicked cool! It's not a helmet-on-a-helmet, it's a faceplate that is secured before you put on the helmet part. Like Darth Vader's helmet... only without the sissified angst. :whistling:

[UlrikS]

There are almost no details about Europe, and for all we know some countries may even have built them selves up again after the war. There are no place that states that Europe didn't have any Power Armor either.

 

But who cares. The armor is cool, and that's the only thing that matters. If you disagree, then don't download.

[Tagaziel]

Yes, but war (and pride/ ego) makes countries do things that we would think to be quite stupid. You know, like North Korea. They're starving, have no economy worth speaking of, yet they have Nukes.

 

Doubtful. No evidence of them possessing nukes and delivery systems has been made available.

 

It would be quite fluffy for a country to have their own power-armor development program, and it would have been just as reasonable for a member of the EU to have an independent power-armor program for any number of reasons. Lucky for us that the European conflict isn't heavily documented, so there's few hard and fast rules we have to follow besides "It's a war-torn place and nobody vacations there anymore."

 

Europe was in no shape to perform any sort of advanced research after the Middle East oil fields dried up, as all oil-derivative products such as oil, plastic, asphalt all oil-based synthetics would be unavailable. It's kind of hard to create advanced armour when you don't have basic supplies.

 

Merely because Fallout hasn't said specifically that there were no non-US power-armor programs means we can assume that there were some. Heck, China was certainly working on their own version (see; WW I and the tank race) and Japan most certainly had prototypes in a testing phase if not ready for deployment.

 

China did indeed rush to create their own versions, but the research was started in late 2066, after witnessing the power of SEC-powered T-45d, laying waste to Chinese infantry and tanks. They were many, many years behind. Any of their armours would be significantly more primitive and inferior to even the basic T-47 (Fo3) model of powered armour.

 

Let me take a moment here to remind you that the Chinese equivalent to the power armour was the Hei Gui Stealth Armour, issued to the elite Black Ghost counter-insurgency/terror units operating deep within American territory. Look up the Hoover Dam and Denver design docs for Van Buren.

 

Which is another point - I really feel that it is sad that people can't think creatively and seek to copy pre-existing ideas. Power armour is a fantastic idea, true. But kinda stops being unique when every country and aliens are supposed to have their own programs. The above example (Hei Gui) is a good example of how to expand the world without copying a pre-existing idea. Furthermore, it creates an interesting balance, showing how one side's advantage can be nullified in other ways than simply copying their idea.

 

Kind of like why the Soviets have Mammoths and Allies the GPS satellite and Longbows in Red Alert.

 

Why must everybody assume that silence or a lack of documentation means "no way" when it comes to new things? Remember, Fallout is about what is happening in the United States of America after a nuclear war. If "Nobody is sure about who started the nuclear exchange..." then it stands to reason that there's really very little we can be sure of in regards to actual history concerning the FO universe. All we have is bits and pieces. We get to make up the rest. :thumbsup:

 

Well, no, it's not "no way". It's more like "there's no plausible way to explain it considering what we know".

 

Now, consider this, in the timeline it's said that China, the second most powerful country in the pre-war Fallout world, rushes to create their own versions, but are many years behind. Doesn't that indicate that an impoverished, war ravaged Europe wouldn't be able to even initiate such an R&D programme in it's state?

 

Well, we can be sure that the Vault-Tec corporation is evil and needs to be nuked again. Just to be sure they never rise again...

 

Oh, and I like the 2nd helmet better. A two-stage helmet looks wicked cool! It's not a helmet-on-a-helmet, it's a faceplate that is secured before you put on the helmet part. Like Darth Vader's helmet... only without the sissified angst. :whistling:

 

It'd look great as the Hei Gui armour, you know.

[Seviche]

Yes, but war (and pride/ ego) makes countries do things that we would think to be quite stupid. You know, like North Korea. They're starving, have no economy worth speaking of, yet they have Nukes.

Doubtful. No evidence of them possessing nukes and delivery systems has been made available.

You missed the point. The Norks claim they have nukes, we (the US) act as if they have a nuclear program, they export "advisers" in the form of technicians to other countries that desire nuclear weapons, and they're quite fond of launching missiles into the sea of Japan for testing. The point being; they're poor, bankrupt, despotic, and they're doing their Olympic best to develop something they shouldn't be able to build (and shouldn't be wasting resources on) for no good reason. That's the point, they're doing it anyway to spite sensible action. Anything is possible when power is in the hands of determined despotic and insane leaders.

Europe was in no shape to perform any sort of advanced research after the Middle East oil fields dried up, as all oil-derivative products such as oil, plastic, asphalt all oil-based synthetics would be unavailable. It's kind of hard to create advanced armour when you don't have basic supplies.

Odd, the FO3 power-armor appears to be made of metal and pre-solid state equipment. Not exactly knowing what powers the chassis underneath, there seems to be very little plastics involved. Heck, the rebreather hoses are a dead ringer for the old fabric-covered wires that used to be the norm.

 

Look at the electronics... it's based on vacuum tubes without a transistor in sight! Where are the plastics, the oil-based "basic supplies" "required" to create power armor. You're thinking "our" tech and not "Fallout" tech, which is a huge difference. Fallout is pre-solid state and we're all about solid state electronics.

 

China did indeed rush to create their own versions, but the research was started in late 2066, after witnessing the power of SEC-powered T-45d, laying waste to Chinese infantry and tanks. They were many, many years behind. Any of their armours would be significantly more primitive and inferior to even the basic T-47 (Fo3) model of powered armour.

 

Let me take a moment here to remind you that the Chinese equivalent to the power armour was the Hei Gui Stealth Armour, issued to the elite Black Ghost counter-insurgency/terror units operating deep within American territory. Look up the Hoover Dam and Denver design docs for Van Buren.

Here's the thing, I don't agree that Van Buren was canon. I'm a weirdo that way; anything not released to the public doesn't count. By released I mean as a finalized product. Design docs are plans and wishes, dreams and potential, all unrealized and unfulfilled. Still interesting reading, to be honest, and perhaps something I should delve into. Not that I'll change my mind, about what is canon or not, but it'll be interesting anyways.

 

Which is another point - I really feel that it is sad that people can't think creatively and seek to copy pre-existing ideas. Power armour is a fantastic idea, true. But kinda stops being unique when every country and aliens are supposed to have their own programs.

Copying is sad? Literary arguments aside, power-armor is THE iconic symbol of the Fallout series. The "pinnacle" of combat engineering... so why not make a variation on it? There's plenty of possible reasons for the existence of other types of power armor. There would have been competing companies showing their version before losing out on the government contract, and some of those would keep developing their version in order to try and win the next contract for power armor.

 

Your bemoaning the lack of creativity aside, the lad has to start somewhere and if he starts by making oh noes! another!!11eleven! suit of power armor, I say excellent. We all have to start somewhere. Perhaps someday he'll move on to making something you do approve of.

The above example (Hei Gui) is a good example of how to expand the world without copying a pre-existing idea. Furthermore, it creates an interesting balance, showing how one side's advantage can be nullified in other ways than simply copying their idea.

 

Kind of like why the Soviets have Mammoths and Allies the GPS satellite and Longbows in Red Alert.

That, unfortunately, isn't quite how things work in the real world. Counters aren't build to go around a problem, they're meant to counter them directly. When the enemy has an overwhelming advantage because of a deficiency in your forces, you don't try to work around the hole in your defenses, you plug the darn hole so they stop using it.

 

Besides, power armor would have been easy to stop if you used a lightweight anti-armor device. Those would be way cheaper to manufacture, faster to get to the engagement, quick to train, and would have been a good counter to the American power armor. Not perfect, but human-wave tactics coupled with light anti-armor devices (a thermite hand-grenade would do nasty things to power armor) would have stressed the US troops to the limit, if not stalling the advance on Beijing significantly or completely.

 

Well, no, it's not "no way". It's more like "there's no plausible way to explain it considering what we know".

 

Now, consider this, in the timeline it's said that China, the second most powerful country in the pre-war Fallout world, rushes to create their own versions, but are many years behind. Doesn't that indicate that an impoverished, war ravaged Europe wouldn't be able to even initiate such an R&D programme in it's state?

There's no way of knowing (that I am aware of) how long the US had been developing their Power-armor. Europe could have easily been developing their own before the break-up, and any number of totalitarian governments or city-states that managed to survive the collapse could have kept their program alive. Another point and let's be honest here, the 3rd most powerful country in the world (whoever that was) certainly wasn't weak and heck THEY could have been developing their own power-armor. We just don't know.

 

See, when the US says "We're building X," the rest of the world doesn't go "Pshaw, it'll never work, those crazy Americans." They say, "Crap! What do they know that we don't? Ingmar! Start building me power-armor, you swine! *whipcrack*" Also, while I previously argued against using our technology to judge what is possible within the FO universe, I'll use modern America as an example of something I think is possible within the FO universe; the bloody impossibility of keeping a secret within the US. Trust me, while the Chinese probably poo-poohed the US power armor (probably seeing it as a nice piece of propaganda), other countries wouldn't.

 

See, you're arguing "No Way Within the Established (as you understand it) Canon" and I'm arguing "There's No Way of Knowing Within the Established (as I understand it) Canon."

 

Again, there are way too many gaps in the Fo history, which I see as a good thing. :thumbsup:

 

It'd look great as the Hei Gui armour, you know.

Sure, why not? We could use more Chinese gear in the game. Can't wait for the Anchorage Simulation! I wonder what the Chinese are using as APCs?

[Tagaziel]

You missed the point. The Norks claim they have nukes, we (the US) act as if they have a nuclear program, they export "advisers" in the form of technicians to other countries that desire nuclear weapons, and they're quite fond of launching missiles into the sea of Japan for testing. The point being; they're poor, bankrupt, despotic, and they're doing their Olympic best to develop something they shouldn't be able to build (and shouldn't be wasting resources on) for no good reason. That's the point, they're doing it anyway to spite sensible action. Anything is possible when power is in the hands of determined despotic and insane leaders.

 

[...]

 

Odd, the FO3 power-armor appears to be made of metal and pre-solid state equipment. Not exactly knowing what powers the chassis underneath, there seems to be very little plastics involved. Heck, the rebreather hoses are a dead ringer for the old fabric-covered wires that used to be the norm.

 

[...]

 

Look at the electronics... it's based on vacuum tubes without a transistor in sight! Where are the plastics, the oil-based "basic supplies" "required" to create power armor. You're thinking "our" tech and not "Fallout" tech, which is a huge difference. Fallout is pre-solid state and we're all about solid state electronics.

 

[...]

 

There's no way of knowing (that I am aware of) how long the US had been developing their Power-armor. Europe could have easily been developing their own before the break-up, and any number of totalitarian governments or city-states that managed to survive the collapse could have kept their program alive. Another point and let's be honest here, the 3rd most powerful country in the world (whoever that was) certainly wasn't weak and heck THEY could have been developing their own power-armor. We just don't know.

 

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline

 

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Power_Armor

 

* 2065, August: The need for increased mobility in US Army Mechanized Cavalry units, leads the military research companies to focus their research to create a man based tank - the Power Armor.

* 2065 - 2067: Power Armor research grows and several prototypes are developed, many of which prove to be unworkable in the field. These prototypes pave the way for future advances in military, construction, and fusion technology.

* 2066, Summer: The first crude fusion cell is unveiled, one of the results of the Power Armor project.

* 2067: The first suit of T-45d Power Armor is deployed in Alaska during the Anchorage Reclamation. While lacking the full mobility of future versions, this Power Armor is incredibly effective against Chinese tanks and infantry. Its ability to carry heavy ordinance becomes key in various localized conflicts, and it has the power to destroy entire towns without endangering the wearer. China rushes to create its own versions, but they are many years behind the United States.

* 2074: Contrary to their claims of seeking only to retake Alaska from the Reds, American Power Armor units, infantry, and mechanized divisions are deployed to China, but they become bogged down on the mainland, putting a further drain on American resources and supply lines.

* 2076, June: T51b Power Armor prototype is completed. This is the pinnacle of Power Armor technology before the Great War. Many of these units are sent to China, and they begin to carve a swath through the Chinese forces.

* 2077, January 22: The first domestic use of Power Armor within the United States for crowd and quarantine control. Units originally serving in China and the Anchorage Front Line find themselves fighting Americans at home.

 

I bolded the date.

 

FIVE YEARS after the European Commonwealth fell apart. Five, until the project was CONCEIVED. The first working suit was deployed in 2067, seven years after the EC fell apart. That pretty much ends the question of European Power Armour - seven years after the Commonwealths collapse and seven years of strife and civil war, Europe wouldn't be able to even initiate such a research programme.

 

Here's the thing, I don't agree that Van Buren was canon. I'm a weirdo that way; anything not released to the public doesn't count. By released I mean as a finalized product. Design docs are plans and wishes, dreams and potential, all unrealized and unfulfilled. Still interesting reading, to be honest, and perhaps something I should delve into. Not that I'll change my mind, about what is canon or not, but it'll be interesting anyways.

 

Nothing in Fallout 3 contradicts Van Buren, so I treat it as semi-canon. Not to mention that it expands the Fallout world in a much better way than Fo3. Besides, if it fits Fallout, why not accept it?

 

Copying is sad? Literary arguments aside, power-armor is THE iconic symbol of the Fallout series.

 

I disagree. While it is prominently featured on every cover, the iconic symbol of the Fallout series is it's retrofuturistic aesthetic. Powered armour is present in many games, a retro-50s aesthetic practically nowhere.

 

The "pinnacle" of combat engineering... so why not make a variation on it? There's plenty of possible reasons for the existence of other types of power armor. There would have been competing companies showing their version before losing out on the government contract, and some of those would keep developing their version in order to try and win the next contract for power armor.

 

Uh, that doesn't make much sense, especially considering that the US was at war already. West Tech was entrusted with the highest priority projects (powered armour and FEV) and there's not a single piece of evidence suggesting that other companies so much as KNEW about the project.

 

Which is another point - the powered armour was a top secret project, and having companies compete for the contract would be a serious security issue. As the timeline shows, the military companies weren't competing - they were simply given a job to do.

 

Your bemoaning the lack of creativity aside, the lad has to start somewhere and if he starts by making oh noes! another!!11eleven! suit of power armor, I say excellent. We all have to start somewhere. Perhaps someday he'll move on to making something you do approve of.

 

I've already voiced my approval of his work if you didn't notice, especially the first version of the helmet, which reminds me of a dedicated biohazard version of the powered armour. It's the second I had a slight issue with, since power armour in Fallout wasn't like that, ever.

 

That, unfortunately, isn't quite how things work in the real world. Counters aren't build to go around a problem, they're meant to counter them directly. When the enemy has an overwhelming advantage because of a deficiency in your forces, you don't try to work around the hole in your defenses, you plug the darn hole so they stop using it.

 

Except China had NOTHING to plug it with, except cannon fodder, so they went around and developed the Hei Gui armour to interrupt supply lines and lead guerilla warfare against the enemy. It's quite simple, when you don't have anything to match the enemy's firepower, you respond by finding ways to disable it.

 

Besides, power armor would have been easy to stop if you used a lightweight anti-armor device. Those would be way cheaper to manufacture, faster to get to the engagement, quick to train, and would have been a good counter to the American power armor. Not perfect, but human-wave tactics coupled with light anti-armor devices (a thermite hand-grenade would do nasty things to power armor) would have stressed the US troops to the limit, if not stalling the advance on Beijing significantly or completely.

 

And it did, as the US forces got bogged down in mainland China, with supply lines stretched to the breaking point. You're also overestimating the effectiveness of lightweight anti-armour devices against a very mobile bipedal tank which the PA is.

 

See, when the US says "We're building X," the rest of the world doesn't go "Pshaw, it'll never work, those crazy Americans." They say, "Crap! What do they know that we don't? Ingmar! Start building me power-armor, you swine! *whipcrack*" Also, while I previously argued against using our technology to judge what is possible within the FO universe, I'll use modern America as an example of something I think is possible within the FO universe; the bloody impossibility of keeping a secret within the US. Trust me, while the Chinese probably poo-poohed the US power armor (probably seeing it as a nice piece of propaganda), other countries wouldn't.

 

Uh, what?

 

When the first suit of armour was deployed, China went nuts and rushed to develop their own, lagging behind. Not to mention that in the Fallout world the Red Scare never ended and was very much alive, making keeping secrets very easy, ESPECIALLY with the Enclave pulling the strings.

 

See, you're arguing "No Way Within the Established (as you understand it) Canon" and I'm arguing "There's No Way of Knowing Within the Established (as I understand it) Canon."

 

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_Wiki

 

Digest this, by far THE most complete guide to Fallout lore on the web.

[TheOutlander]

Ok so if the idea of "Power Armour from other countries" is out of the question, what about customized models by individuals like models made by ex-enclave/BoS engineers, a third tech heavy group (situated somewhere else in the US), or unique armours that have come about because the owner didn't have the proper replacement parts (for example helmet 2 looks like someone had to replace the top part of it with a combat helmet or German WWII souvenir helmet...).

 

I mean there are plenty of ways to explain why certain armours look unique compared to the more standardised types we see in the games.

[gotthammer]

my two caps,

 

I'd like to see foreign power armor.

In the case of the European Commonwealth breaking up into nation states...it doesn't mean that the individual states can't come up w/ something on their own (especially the Germans, if you're going for that stereotyped source of 'high tech stuff from europe'. though I can't see why the Belgians, the French, the Swiss, etc. can't come up w/ something, too).

 

If anything (heh...requesting the same stuff again), I want Jin-roh-esque/Protect Gear-esque armor and power armor. Fluff explanation? History somewhat repeating itself: from nation states, small empires (France, Holy Roman Empire, etc.). Can't see why one can't have a resurgent HRE built from the scraps of whatever was left after the bombs fell (a similar idea is presented by another group, the Valhalla Project, I think...tho' I don't think they'll be doing power armor).

 

Heck, if anyone can model the stuff, I can provide 2D art for concept purposes...

[xposeddreamer]

I personally like the Second a ton better but would like it more if it had a gasmask for the face part

[Legeadus]

"The idea of power armour from other countries" is not out of the question.

As was mentioned before, there are no known facts about the European "history" between 2060 and 2277.

The only fact is, basically: "Some time after the war ended, as the Middle Eastern oil fields went dry in 2060 and European Commonwealth dissolved into quarreling nation states fighting for the remaining resources. " Source: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/European_Commonwealth

Well... Quarreling and fighting? That doesn't have to mean, that there were "hot" conflicts. "Fights" can also be verbal, as we all surely know. It would make no sense for the EC, strategically and economically to split up entirely, especially if the EC-internal nations had a consolidated budget, and research programmes.

If there was a splitup, it's highly likely that it wasn't a permanent one.

But even if there was a war between the European nations...

No resources anymore, but they were able to fight eachother? As we can see, in our world, and in the Fallout world, war "drives" technological progress.

So, either they developed new, alternative resources and energy-sources in unity as the EC, or as "quarreling nation states", or not at all. For all we know - anything IS possible.

Another point is, since the EC was "down" after the Resource Wars... It wouldn't have posed such a great threat to the Chinese, and surely wouldn't have been such a great target for their nuclear bombs and missiles, therefore - easier to rebuild society and economy.

In Fallout 1 & 2 (which I did not play, I have to admit), the best weapons like the Gauss Rifle and Pistol were European made. So they certainly had the technological expertise.

One other thing, no idea how much of a fact this is: In Fallout 3 was something like this mentioned (i think), "...when Colin Moriarty came to this country...". He has an irish accent, so it's quite possible, that he's originally from Europe, thus, he was somehow able to cross the Atlantic Ocean.

Much can happen within 217 years. And if Europe didn't get as badly hit as the US, it's highly probable that they were able to "maintain civilisation", or rebuild it easier. Much could have happened in Europe in those 217 years, childish pre-Great War-quarrels aside.

And even if they didn't have any known power armour at the time of the Resource Wars or the Great War, there's no reason why they shouldn't have it somewhen between 2077 and 2277.

I don't and can't claim this to be canon, but it is very much possible. And since it's a singleplayer game, it's whatever we want it to be.

[PrometheusTS]

The thread i becoming interesting and full of ideas , anyway , since now I have moved from my main home to the holiday home here I have just a laptop aand not my main models I was working on so for fun I tought to make other two type variations based on 50's stle and theme , f someone will be enough kind to post me the three main helmet models in 3ds and obj format or even max format it would be greatly appreciated so I could play here modeling some new ones using the vanilla as references....

 

about the discussion ....

 

1

 

Don't forget that inthe 50s US was developing his space programs and nuclear weapons basing on European scientists for the most Italian and Germans , the first for the nuclear fission the second for the Missile science , so a lot of technology would come from the Europe , plu in fallout 3 I have met ascientist claimingsomething about an android technology etc he sounded German , at least in the translation doubling and was from Commonwealth so I guess they developed android technology in plus over the Us tech...