The Brotherhood Outcasts

[DavidYokosukaJapan]

I've always thought that as a faction, well at first they [The Brotherhood Outcasts] make sense but once you understand them further, get to learn more about them and inter-act with the, their logic and resondetre start to fall apart.

 

They broke away from Owen Lyons specifically because he started to help the wastelanders around him. Casdin makes quite a specific point about this saying how the old man had effectively lost it and that Casdin would like to see Owen Lyons put up against a wall and shot. They make no qualms about despising wastelands as evidenced from the various snide comments you get from them as you encounter their patrols in the wasteland. Yet they're perefctly willing to act your help in acquiring technology such as laser rifles etc plus supplies on their behalf in exchange for ammo, stim packs etc. So at some basic level, they acknowledge that the need to interact with the outside world if they are to survive. Next inconsistency is when you encounter them in the Operation Anchorage DLC. They accept your help because your wearing a Pipboy. They tried to cut one off one of the Gary clones but still couldn't get it to work for the VR pod? And it's these guys that are supposed to be the masters of pre-war tech eh? Ohhhkay.... :armscrossed: Actually there is one piece of consistency in the way Sibley reacts after you complete the VR sim by basically attacking you, Protector McGraw and Scribe Olin. this tracks true with how the Outcasts should behave. They despise all wastelanders and see them as less than human, only just marginally better than ghouls etc.

 

So even though you encounter them before the BoS, even though you help them unlock the VR simulator, they are still a pack of judgmental ass-hats that end up being on the wrong side of history. It's a pity really and on my next play through, I'm just going to kill them all and take over their base :devil:

 

oh the other glaring inconsistency is that they don't bother to eradicate the nest of raiders that are literally just up the road from them. :dry: I just never understood this at all. Why on earth would a group like the Outcasts tolerate having a hostile force, even one as pathetic as the raiders, being so close to their base of operations? It makes just no sense!

 

 

Ok, and now back to our regularly scheduled program....

 

This is W.A.R... Wasteland Ambient Radio.... coming to live across the rad infested places that just make you glow green with every clickitly click of that geigar counter.

It's just like our slogan on our building says, we never change because we all know that WAR, WAR never changes.

And neither should you folks!

Unless your suffering from... unnhh.. ghoulification... eeecchh.. then you're screwed! Hahaha...

 

Here's one for a wastelander who's out there in a far off place....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNsbbORorfk

 

:P

I couldn't resist it David :wink:

Talwyn, おはようございます！Good morning from Japan.

 

I always wondered why the Outcasts at the War Simulation Bunker couldn't get the pip-boy they tried to take from the Gary clone to work... and also remember well the inconsistency of a young vault dweller being told the pip-boy couldn't be removed due to "biometric seals" yet when you change clothes... well they show as if you took it off and then put it on over your clothes instead of sleeves being rolled up, etc... but back to the Outcasts...

 

You're absolutely right. The Outcasts are right in lock-step with the real BoS on their stance regarding Lyon's East Coast BoS chapter.

The BoS HQ on the west coast in order to "save face" and to save themselves from expending resources to stop Owen Lyons simply "stopped providing support" and "cut comms" (cold shoulder act) to Lyon's East Coast BoS chapter because he made the double-whammy decision of making collection of tech a low priority while at the same time having enough compassion towards wastelanders to expend resources to help them.

 

It's both interesting and humorous stating that the BoS's (and thus Outcast's) "reason for existence" basically has gone the way of labor unions :D Heh, "Initially necessary but no longer needed."

That's pretty heavy, and mostly correct: I agree on the need for "collection and cataloguing technology," but not the "hoarding" (both tech and knowledge) part.

 

With the goods for tech deal the Outcasts make with the Lone Wanderer I don't necessarily think "they acknowledge that the need to interact with the outside world if they are to survive." Just a theory but maybe the LW having the pip-boy made him appear a slight bit smarter (or more useful rather) than the average waster... enough to collect goods for them simply because it seemed they wouldn't have to waste time with any deep explanations of tech because the LW'd "already know" what they meant.

And they'd simply trade some surplus supplies for tech (which they wanted anyhow) and if the lone wanderer got into a mess and got injured or died while collecting for them... well "who cares, he knew what he was signing up for anyhow" seems to be their attitude.

All in all a good deal for the Outcasts.

 

If the Outcasts actually acknowledged the need to interact with the outside world to survive they'd have a lot of outsiders getting tech for them... instead of just one fellow with a pip-boy on his arm.

Indeed, the BoS, and Outcasts of course, aren't "pre-war tech masters," they just wish they were. What they are, are hoarders: zealous, selfish, self-centered, xenophobic, haughty, and prejudiced ones.

 

And regarding the reason the Outcasts haven't wiped out the Raiders in the Fairfax ruins, it's obvious that in typical Outcast fashion, they just "can't be bothered" with that :rolleyes:

It's obvious they wouldn't even bother shooting Raiders if the dumb, chem-addled Raiders didn't shoot first. It's just their typical attitude towards wasters in effect, the way we treat dogs on the street: It isn't bothering me so I ignore it; it's trying to bite me so I euthanize it.

 

You phrased it well when you wrote how Outcasts see wastelanders as "less than human...." :sleep:

 

In all honestly, I'm actually surprised the Outcasts were able to see through their narrow-mindedness enough to offer the lone wanderer the "The Outcast Collection Agent" quest as they (and West Coast BoS -- read real BoS) are as narrow-minded as racists when it comes to the matter of dealing with others.

 

Extremists and fanatics, no matter what kind, have a tendency to cause more harm than good even when they have "good" intentions. :armscrossed:

 

I hate to say this but I think you're also going to go the extremist route on your next playthrough with your "scorched earth for the Outcasts" plan ;)

 

I tend to "use" the Outcast patrols for canon fodder/free bodyguards the way they use they lone wanderer as a convenient source of "guilt-free tech."

So for me, the relationship is mutually, benefically selfish. :yes:

 

I have a tendency to run their way when I'm chased by Deathclaw Matriarchs or hardened sentry bots. Or if I see a formidable hostile off in the distance and it's directly in the path I need to go, I actually do something to lure it towards an Outcast patrol.

 

I did this just yesterday on a road just south of Fort Constantine: I saw a hostile sentry bot about oh... a little more than a kilometer away and an Outcast patrol (three members plus a robobrain) just under a klik away so I took out my trusty AEP7 and took a few potshots between the patrol and the bot.

Within less 15 seconds you could see them exchanging fire but couldn't hear anything other than faint explosions. I started making my way through the trees towards them but couldn't see what was occuring as the view was blocked by skeletal trees and large rocks but could hear now hear the loud bark of heavy gunfire, multiple explosions, and that odd whizz-chirp that gatling lasers make . Anyhow by the time I arrived the triumphant Outcast patrol had moved on, minus one member.

I looted the wrecked sentry bot for 3 missiles, some ECP rounds, and scrap metal and moved on, feeling no guilt as I passed the fallen Outcast member. All I did was kneel down to take take off his helmet and place it on the car next to where he lay in the hope that it would hasten the fallen warriors transition to dust by more easily allowing bacteria and wasteland critters access.

I figured in a month the body would be nothing more than bones and someone would probably have scavenged the armor by then as well.

Again, a mutually beneficial and self-serving relationship.

 

 

Hope you don't mind that I've relocated the post to here.

I did a search for "outcasts" in "Fallout 3 Spoilers" and found that there is surprisingly no topic directly devoted to their discussion and thought this would be a could place for it.

 

BTW, odd tune for the wasteland... very 80's :sweat:

[Talwyn224]

You are absolutely right in regards to the 80's new wave pop tune :thumbsup: yet I thought it appropriate as you are in Japan after all :wink:

 

here is something far more in keeping with Fallout themed music from my very humble youtube channel:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTeHRxvBXew

 

I really must get it together one day and start up a new youtube fallout themed radio channel called W.A.R...

 

 

 

Ok moving on....

 

I agree that selecting the Outcasts for termination with extreme prejudice is indeed harsh and falls into the same mind set as they have. Yet until there is a mod made that allows some sort of brokered truce to be achieved between the CWBos and the Outcasts and especially after you've completed Broken Steel, I see no other alternative in dealing with them, especially if you've sided with Owen Lyons and his crew. The Outcasts patrols attacking CWBoS water caravans is an act of pure spite and I see it as an act of evil. In fact just loooking at the notes on the Fallout wiki i came across this VERY telling piece of information:

 

 

All Brotherhood Outcast patrols are considered evil. This means that they will incur no Karma penalty when killed, and will potentially drop a finger for those with the Lawbringer perk.

 

 

So there you have it, the game designers see them as evil and I am starting to agree with them. The points you raise regarding the BoS mission to collect technology has become twisted and what was something noble has become selfish and harmful to humanity's survival in the long term. This comes out beautifully in Veronica's companion quest "I could Make You care" in FO:NV. No matter what you do, no matter how persuasive your arguments and no matter what wonderful bits of technology you present to Elder McNamara, he won't budge or make any effort to change. This is why I think you are charged with setting off the bunkers self destruct in FO:NV by Mr House and/or the NCR. Even YesMan says that they will be the biggest threat to an independent New Vegas if you choose to spare them. And that's the problem. If you complete the BoS quest line in FO:NV it's hard not to feel for them and even harder [unless you're a heartless bastard] to suddenly turn on them and murder them all after they make you a member of the BoS. Although that in itself is another massively stupid piece of bad writing IMO - why do they let a complete stranger in who just a few favors for them when they constantly tell you they try to keep the outside world at bay all the time? Makes no sense to me whatsoever. I even asked Joshua Sawyer via his Form-spring account this question but sadly got no reply. Maybe he knew it was a terrible logic/plot inconsistency and didn't want to acknowledge it? That's my guess anyway.

 

So getting back to the Outcasts you are faced with the same conundrum: spare a group who's goals will be to take what ever tech you have off you and hold back any chance of advancement because they see themselves as the only true guardians of knowledge. Or acknowledge that they will fight you [and your allies etc] because they will never change and so you have to wipe them out before they do too much damage. It's another of those deliciously moral ambiguities the game throws up but I'm starting to think that the choice to end the Outcasts is becoming less of a morally challenging question and more of a terrible necessity.

 

If you RP it in a reasonable way, the Outcasts are your friends [and use that term quite loosely] when you start helping them out but as the game progresses and you see that its technology that is all they're interested in, well the decision becomes clearer in who to side with. Yes use them as a source of trade, especially with FWE as that mod greatly expands them as a faction and the quest you do for them. But after Broken Steel... their days are numbered IMO.

 

One of the silly things about the game is that the CWBoS don't appear to be at all interested in trading with you even if you show up at their doorstep with an armful of high tech weapons and supplies? But the paranoid, condescending racists Outcasts are happy to trade with you? Very odd, especially since the CWBoS are supposed to be actively engaging with the local population while the Outcasts have rejected that totally.

 

 

The other puzzling item is this; in Op.Anchorage the reason the Outcasts enlist your help is that you have a working Pipboy. Now, both the CWBoS and Outcasts are supposed to be VERY keen on acquiring pre war tech. Suddenly here is a person who's appeared from a hither to unknown, un-opened and most importantly INTACT and WORKING vault yet no one appears to care nor is in the least bit excited or interested in this bit of information? :down: Oh dear lord.... :dry: You'd think that both factions, and the Enclave for that matter, would be foaming at the mouth, salivating at the prospect of being able to get into Vault 101 and get their hands on all the goodies [not to mention all the holotapes and books] that are inside the vault and also get a hold of the trained personnel etc who live there. Vault 101 is a treasure trove but it's dismissed and glossed over by the designers which absolutely baffles me o_O Vault 101 should be one of the most important places in the CW and the quest Trouble on the Home Front desperately needs to be reworked. Wishful thinking I know... [sigh]

Edited February 6, 2013 by Talwyn224

[DavidYokosukaJapan]

Well I didn't know you have a channel on Youtube. I'll have to subscribe :thumbsup:

 

I've read quite a lot on the Fallout wiki, especially regarding FO3. I remember when I first read on the wiki that Outcast patrols are considered evil and they drop fingers... well it surprised me. This was after I'd been playing for a month or so and thought they were 'neutral' at worst.

Actually they are neutral to the Lone Wanderer (usually) but when it comes to 'the world as a whole' I guess they are considered 'evil' due to their pride, prejudice, arrogance, and selfishness.

Kind of a scary thought because I think a large portion of the world views the US this way. Maybe a bit less now under President Obama I hope.

 

It's a sad thing that a noble organization (BoS) has devolved into selfish, prejudice, isolationist, hoarders. It hurts even more because honestly let's face it: they are the coolest looking characters in the game with their formidable looking armour. 8)

 

You raise a lot of good points from NV, which I played until I found out about FWE. I haven't played NV in a year, and don't plan to again. The NCR vs Ceaser's Legion story bored me out of my mind and all the DLCs with the exception of Honest Hearts were unimpressive by my standards.

But back to the topic...

 

The BoS ... as messed up as they are, well I keep hoping (like Veronica) they'll change. But one splinter of shining hope, from NV surprisingly: if played "correctly" the Mojave BoS and NCR can come to terms and become allied before the end-game which makes for IMO a happy ending.

Remember the slide? It reads, “The Brotherhood and the NCR in the Mojave Wasteland declared an official truce, despite continued hostilities between the two in the west. As per their agreement, the NCR handed over all suits of salvaged power armor and in return the Brotherhood helped patrol I-15 and Highway 95. “

It’s like they are actually coming out of their (power armoured) shell and learning to be a part of society again. :happy:

 

The last time I played NV I made sure it ended this way. And then I never played New Vegas again.

 

And regarding Josh Sawyer… no surprise he didn’t answer.

And also no surprise he allowed some of the shoddiest plots in Fallout history to actually be published. So… I guess that the CRAP story that was New Vegas’ main plot is now considered canon. :down:

IMHO all Mr. Sawyer did was copy a few features of the more successful mods and implement them into New Vegas which was good, but for some God-awful reason let the rest of the game Go To Crap. :verymad:

I’m not saying he should be fired, but he sure shouldn’t be in charge of any more Fallout projects. Ever.

 

It’s a SHAME that Pete Hines wasn’t in charge of New Vegas. OK… I’m getting side-tracked again. Back to The Outcasts…

So getting back to the Outcasts you are faced with the same conundrum: spare a group who's goals will be to take what ever tech you have off you and hold back any chance of advancement because they see themselves as the only true guardians of knowledge. Or acknowledge that they will fight you [and your allies etc] because they will never change and so you have to wipe them out before they do too much damage. It's another of those deliciously moral ambiguities the game throws up but I'm starting to think that the choice to end the Outcasts is becoming less of a morally challenging question and more of a terrible necessity.

Haha.. well depending on what the DEVS think.. that could go in a few directions.

It would be interesting the see some of that quandary implemented better: that is, have the Outcast patrols act towards the lone wanderer (& wastelanders, etc.) as they normally do (in other words, ignore him/her with the usual demeaning banter) *unless* the lone wanderer is wearing some form of power armor or has a laser/plasma weapon equipped, then they would walk up the lone wanderer and say jovially, "Well look what we have here, a wasteland wanderer. You can’t just carry that kind of technology around. It’s not authorized. I’m sorry, sir (or Ma’am) but I’m afraid we’ll have to confiscate that tech.”

At this point the dialog tree opens up with:

“Ahh, I didn’t know. Take it,” or “I see. Alright then.” [Hand over all energy weapons and power armor]

The other two selections read, “I can’t go anywhere without running into you assholes,” or “Over my dead body!” [start combat]

 

Implementing that would lend some credence to the Outcast patrols being evil. And from a BoS policy standpoint, it simply makes sense to take that sort of advanced technology out the hands of the common populace for fear they’d unintentionally bring about some wanton destruction because “those wasters just don’t know what they’re doing.” :rolleyes:

 

A couple random encounters could be added as well where the lone wanderer sees a group of Outcasts confiscating tech from maybe a traveling scavenger merchant, or some wastelanders. And maybe even witnesses them forcefully confiscating items. If the LW helps, he gains Good Karma... and gains the Outcasts as enemies (goodbye, Outcast Collection Agent quest!).

Though it's minor details, they'd really flesh out the Outcasts and it would make a very cool mod :thumbsup:

 

If you RP it in a reasonable way, the Outcasts are your friends [and use that term quite loosely] when you start helping them out but as the game progresses and you see that its technology that is all they're interested in, well the decision becomes clearer in who to side with. Yes use them as a source of trade, especially with FWE as that mod greatly expands them as a faction and the quest you do for them. But after Broken Steel... their days are numbered IMO.

One of the silly things about the game is that the CWBoS don't appear to be at all interested in trading with you even if you show up at their doorstep with an armful of high tech weapons and supplies? But the paranoid, condescending racists Outcasts are happy to trade with you? Very odd, especially since the CWBoS are supposed to be actively engaging with the local population while the Outcasts have rejected that totally.

You make a good point on both counts. Definitely have to chalk that up to DEV oversight.

 

The other puzzling item is this; in Op.Anchorage the reason the Outcasts enlist your help is that you have a working Pipboy. Now, both the CWBoS and Outcasts are supposed to be VERY keen on acquiring pre war tech….. yet no one appears to care nor is in the least bit excited or interested in this bit of information …and get their hands on all the goodies [not to mention all the holotapes and books] that are inside the vault and also get a hold of the trained personnel etc who live there. …

Again very good points and again DEV oversight and/or not implemented due to the project timeline? Just a guess and not saying it’s a forgivable oversight.

If I was to make a suggestion to the DEVS, and they did not have time to implement that storyline, they should have simply added dialog trees with discussion along the lines of, “So you’re from a vault eh? We’d be highly interested in knowing where. We’d provide ample compensation of course… Take us after [quest goal.” and then regardless of how the conversation went, it would never come up again. In other words, have the NPC who says this to the lone wanderer scripted to die for whatever reason and then it’s ‘end of discussion.’ (I’m looking at you Defender Sibley ;) )

[Talwyn224]

My youtube channell is VERY humble, mostly stuff I have fav'd over time plus a few uploads of my own, nothing at that exciting at all really :tongue:

 

I'm travelling on business today, heading for Perth for 18 days so forgive me if my replies are not as prompt nor as lengthy as they could be.

 

Ok, off to check in my gear then hang around the airport for a few hours catching up with work etc [sigh]

[7thsealord]

Something that occurred to me just today.

 

The Outcasts make a big thing about how they are the real BoS, and how Lyons has tainted the order. Recall Casdin expressing his wish to see Lyons face a firing squad when the rest of the BoS come east and clean house.

 

And yet ....

 

As far as we know, neither the BoS (DC Branch) or the Outcasts have reliable communications with their .... western kinfolk. Certainly, no one ever mentions any such thing. Such a link, however faint, would be vital in confirming one side's legitimacy over the other. Presumably, if such a communications link ever existed, it broke down a long time ago (could be an interesting backstory there, perhaps).

 

But the main point I want to make is this. The BoS's arrival in the East was marked by the Scourging Of The Pitt and their subsequent move to DC. All that was twenty-plus years ago with, apparently, zero contact with the western BoS in all that time. The Outcasts might be all sentimental about what the BoS should be, but they have absolutely no clue as to what changes may have occurred in hte "main" organization in all that time. Could be a nasty shock or three in their future, such as it is.

Edited February 8, 2013 by 7thsealord

[charwo]

Actually, I think someone who played the old games should offer their thoughts:

 

One: while the NV storyline did not explain itself well, it is plausible enough. NCR is caught at a bad moment and Caesar's strength is cresting. But more importantly, Fallout has a thing with broken pedestals. The big one is the prewar America: it was glorious, but it sucked big time. Not everything, I think the prewar America of the pre-Resource Wars was a nice place to live, I happen to be living in its analogue, However, the US government came to become the Enclave, and did so before October 23. Roger Maxon had to leave it, and if Chang (who was solely responsible for the nuclear exchange and a complete monster, and completely insane) had surrendered to spare his people, the US was facing a Civil War, and I think that's why the Enclave let the mainland rot: Let the US military and sate governments kill themselves off trying to maintain order. To a lesser extent, the Vault Dweller turned out to be a total tool when he went north and founded Arroyo. If not for the fact he fathered the Elder and thus in a generation the Chosen One, he could not have wasted his post Master life and talents more if he dedicated his life to having surprise sex with marine life. He put the firm foundation for civilization's recovery in southern California and northern California and everywhere else back decades because he went frickin tribal. He failed his duty as a Vault Dweller, even moreso than the people who stayed in 13.

 

I could see that the Brotherhood, if it became closed minded, would go the way it had. That was clear from the beginning. The West Coast Brotherhood was never altruistic: it was either canon or think tank with guns. This is why the Wes Coast BOS is at odds with every single chapter outside of California: the Midwest BOS went into politics, which while not democratic vastly improved life in states up and down the Missouri River. Lyons is trying to prevent his BOS from going dictator, and it means if you didn't catch it in Fallout 3, the East Coast BOS has come full circle from Maxon's dictates and returned to being a de facto US Army. And I think Maxon would be proud of them for reclaiming their Americanness and using it to shitstomp the Enclave, as it was them Maxon had declared war on three days before the end.

 

Note something in Fallout 3 and New Vegas: NCR and ECBOS both hesitate to call themselves Americans, but circumstances forces them to act like it, more NCR than ECBOS. But I never could understand why in Anchorage Odin said "The Americans eventually reclaimed the city, but with heavy losses." It didn't sit well with me, and it took me sometime to figure it out: the Outcasts are the only people in Fallout 3 who explicitly do no call themselves Americans, unless you count the 'Republic of Dave'. They are kinda coy about it, but in the end, the Vault 101 people are Americans, Nathan's an American, Three Dog is an American, James is an American, so is Pinkerton, and I think even Lyons let it slip talking about Liberty Prime he considers himself an American.

 

Fundamentally, the BOS is a secessionist group. Because Maxon 'seceded' out of protest because the US government was doing Melange stuff to its own troops. If you understand the BOS as lawful stupid, and then consider the pettiness and mean spiritness it takes to maintain lawful stupid, then everything makes sense.

[Talwyn224]

Ok, I've got about 30 minutes free before I have to scoot off to a conference

 

Charwo - you bring up some interesting points regarding the WCBoS etc. But the thing is they were inter acting with the outside community, albeit to a lesser extent before the events of FO1. According bto the "official" FO time line, in 2150, the BoS star attacking the raider gamg known as the Vipers and in 2155 this occurs:

 

 

The Brotherhood sends out a few squads of scouts to track the Vipers down - it is more of a training exercise conducted by John Maxson's father, as the Brotherhood is convinced that small detachment of troops in power armor would be sufficient to deal with a group of raiders, no matter how large. One Brotherhood squad, lead by Maxson, finds the Vipers. Expecting the raiders to break and run, Maxson doesn't take into account the religious ferocity of the Vipers (or their poisoned weapons), and when a single arrow nicks him with his helmet off, he dies within hours. John Maxson takes up the role of Elder, and Rhombus becomes the new head of the Paladins.[53]

 

The Paladins, now led by Rhombus, begin a full scale campaign against the Vipers, tracking them down and wiping out almost all of their members within the span of a month. Some of the Vipers are able to flee north and east into the mountain range.[53]

 

 

So they are aware of the wider world and take a hand in events despite their isolationist dogma.

 

Then the Vault Dweller shows up in 2161, meets up with the BoS who send him on a suicide mission to the Glow. They're astounded by his return and allow him entry into their base and eventually train him in the use of high tech equipment like power armour etc. After the defeat of the Master and the destruction of Mariposa, you're right when you say the Vault Dweller turns his back on civilization and goes off to found a small tribal village. Meanwhile, the BoS start to become more of a presence in the wasts as it's stated here:

 

 

The Brotherhood of Steel helps the other human outposts drive the Master's Army away with minimal loss of life, on both sides of the conflict. The advanced technology of the Brotherhood is slowly reintroduced into the Core Region, with little disruption or chaos. The Brotherhood of Steel wisely remains out of the power structure, and becomes a major research and development house.

 

 

And this is where the DEv's start to ignore their own story line and start making massive continuity mistakes and contradict themselves. This is where it starts to get messy. We have evidence as stated, that the BoS, although remaining aloof from the politics, do make a large contribution to kick starting society again in Southern California by providing security and letting out technology in small does to enable people to rebuild.

 

By FO2 we see that society has indeed flourish with the rise of the NCR. It appears at this point the NCR & BoS have an amicable relationship. In fact in FO2, the BoS are depicted as a small declining organisation and not the movers and shakers they were 80 years ago. The Chosen One hardly needs their input at all and eventually destroys the command structure of the Enclave by blowing up the Oil Rig that's located off the west coast.

 

Jump forward 13 years to 2255 when Owen Lyons sets off on his massive trek eastwards. It's unclear as to when the NCR/BoS war begins but I get the feeling it's around about his time. Why else would the BoS send out such a massive expedition if not to hedge their bets and plant a new colony/chapter far away from the NCR? We know by 2274 the war is effectively over, the BoS or what's left of them are cowering in their bunkers. The NCR has more pressing concerns what with Legion attacking from the East and so postpones it's extermination campaign against the WCBoS.

 

The past has shaped the BoS into what appears to be by FO3/ FO:NV. The Outcasts still adhere to the dogma of the Codex thus are a dead end as far as societies go. Only Owen Lyons and his chapter show signs of growing and evolving because they realise that they have to in order to survive. What's left of the West Coast BoS is nothing more than a scattered number of small chapters in isolated pockets and they pose no real threat to the NCR. They too are doomed.

 

I suspect that one or two chapters may surrender rather than suicide but the rest of them will choose death, taking their knowledge to the grave in an act of selfish spite. I also think that the Outcasts will eventually either be wiped out, or [less likely] rejoin Owen Lyons group, albeit very reluctantly. Casdin does say he was in touch with the BoS back west as Veronica mentions that she had heard of a civil war back out east involving the BoS there. But nothing further is added to that. I also suspect that the WCBoS don't have the resources to help Casdin and that their ability to communicate with him is patchy at best. He isn't on their list of priorities either. So Lyon's chapter will have to eventually deal with them one way or another and given the fact that it's them that gathered up the spoils from the defeated Enclave, like Vertibirds, well... death from above from CWBoS guys in Hellfire Armour armed with brand new energy weapons = end of The Outcasts :unsure:

 

They only have themselves to blame.

 

They are Captain Ahab from Moby Dick.

 

 

…to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee.

 

 

They just can't let go...

 

Perhaps they need to take a weekend vacation at the Sierra Madre? :thumbsup: Father Elijah can let them know all about pointless obsessions leading to ultimate doom.... :tongue:

[DavidYokosukaJapan]

My youtube channell is VERY humble, mostly stuff I have fav'd over time plus a few uploads of my own, nothing at that exciting at all really :P

 

I'm travelling on business today, heading for Perth for 18 days so forgive me if my replies are not as prompt nor as lengthy as they could be.

 

Ok, off to check in my gear then hang around the airport for a few hours catching up with work etc [sigh]

 

 

Something that occurred to me just today.

 

The Outcasts make a big thing about how they are the real BoS, and how Lyons has tainted the order. Recall Casdin expressing his wish to see Lyons face a firing squad when the rest of the BoS come east and clean house.

 

And yet ....

 

As far as we know, neither the BoS (DC Branch) or the Outcasts have reliable communications with their .... western kinfolk. Certainly, no one ever mentions any such thing. Such a link, however faint, would be vital in confirming one side's legitimacy over the other. Presumably, if such a communications link ever existed, it broke down a long time ago (could be an interesting backstory there, perhaps).

 

But the main point I want to make is this. The BoS's arrival in the East was marked by the Scourging Of The Pitt and their subsequent move to DC. All that was twenty-plus years ago with, apparently, zero contact with the western BoS in all that time. The Outcasts might be all sentimental about what the BoS should be, but they have absolutely no clue as to what changes may have occurred in hte "main" organization in all that time. Could be a nasty shock or three in their future, such as it is.

 

 

Actually, I think someone who played the old games should offer their thoughts:

 

One: while the NV storyline did not explain itself well, it is plausible enough. NCR is caught at a bad moment and Caesar's strength is cresting. But more importantly, Fallout has a thing with broken pedestals. The big one is the prewar America: it was glorious, but it sucked big time. Not everything, I think the prewar America of the pre-Resource Wars was a nice place to live, I happen to be living in its analogue, However, the US government came to become the Enclave, and did so before October 23. Roger Maxon had to leave it, and if Chang (who was solely responsible for the nuclear exchange and a complete monster, and completely insane) had surrendered to spare his people, the US was facing a Civil War, and I think that's why the Enclave let the mainland rot: Let the US military and sate governments kill themselves off trying to maintain order. To a lesser extent, the Vault Dweller turned out to be a total tool when he went north and founded Arroyo. If not for the fact he fathered the Elder and thus in a generation the Chosen One, he could not have wasted his post Master life and talents more if he dedicated his life to having surprise sex with marine life. He put the firm foundation for civilization's recovery in southern California and northern California and everywhere else back decades because he went frickin tribal. He failed his duty as a Vault Dweller, even moreso than the people who stayed in 13.

 

I could see that the Brotherhood, if it became closed minded, would go the way it had. That was clear from the beginning. The West Coast Brotherhood was never altruistic: it was either canon or think tank with guns. This is why the Wes Coast BOS is at odds with every single chapter outside of California: the Midwest BOS went into politics, which while not democratic vastly improved life in states up and down the Missouri River. Lyons is trying to prevent his BOS from going dictator, and it means if you didn't catch it in Fallout 3, the East Coast BOS has come full circle from Maxon's dictates and returned to being a de facto US Army. And I think Maxon would be proud of them for reclaiming their Americanness and using it to shitstomp the Enclave, as it was them Maxon had declared war on three days before the end.

 

Note something in Fallout 3 and New Vegas: NCR and ECBOS both hesitate to call themselves Americans, but circumstances forces them to act like it, more NCR than ECBOS. But I never could understand why in Anchorage Odin said "The Americans eventually reclaimed the city, but with heavy losses." It didn't sit well with me, and it took me sometime to figure it out: the Outcasts are the only people in Fallout 3 who explicitly do no call themselves Americans, unless you count the 'Republic of Dave'. They are kinda coy about it, but in the end, the Vault 101 people are Americans, Nathan's an American, Three Dog is an American, James is an American, so is Pinkerton, and I think even Lyons let it slip talking about Liberty Prime he considers himself an American.

 

Fundamentally, the BOS is a secessionist group. Because Maxon 'seceded' out of protest because the US government was doing Melange stuff to its own troops. If you understand the BOS as lawful stupid, and then consider the pettiness and mean spiritness it takes to maintain lawful stupid, then everything makes sense.

I'm back from a brief hiatus. Japanese funeral ceremonies take from 3 days to a week to complete...

 

Charwo, thanks for your enlightening insight, especially regarding F2 and Tactics because I've only played original and 3. I reluctantly agree that the NV story is a plausible explanation why Mojave politics are occuring the way they are, as vapid as that story is, imho.

 

And humorous as you put it, indeed it seems the Vault Dweller made a true WTF-Decision by deciding to go tribal. Apparently even the most capable people occasionally shirk responsibility, leaving it to less capable people willing to give it their best effort (we hope!) and then in this case failing or at least falling short.

 

So, there could have been a happy ending and restored society/civilization after Fallout were it not for the Vault Dweller's ill-fated choice to run off and become a nature loving hippy instead of providing valid leadership in a blooming society he had helped establish.

Which is actually good for us gamers who enjoy the drama of the Fallout series. Ironic.

 

The point you make on NCR and ECBoS both acting American and not labeling themselves as such makes one wonder what would happen if the two organizations met. If they could get over each other's titles and rocky history it could be presumed they could work together for the better of all. However, the physical separation between them makes it highly unlikely ... at least for the next game or so in the series.

 

BTW..."lawful stupid" is an alignment, right? :wink:

 

Talwyn, doesn't it seem that the reason the WCBoS under Rhombus wipes out the Vipers is retaliation for killing Maxson? That's how it seemed to me. Revenge.

 

So... the BoS storyline discontinuity from Fallout 2 through to NV basically boils down to the Devs deciding that the WCBoS has become an organization of defeated, disjoined cells on their way to extinction.

Does this mean that ECBoS will be the "new" BoS and henceforth West Coast-based Fallout games will further deplete the BoS story from them, leaving only East Coast based Fallout games with them as a major faction? Appropriate, but also dissapointing.

 

Good Moby Dick analogy for the Outcasts. Fitting. Strangely it reminded me of Khan in Star Trek... where he uses it as well.

 

Funny you should mention Outcasts and Sierra Madre: an irresistable temptation... to their doom. It would honestly be another dissatisfying end.

 

BTW, love your YouTube channel. What a mix!

 

7thsealord has an interesting posit that possibly the WCBoS could actually have changed ways and become more aligned with the standards that the ECBoS follows.

However (and sadly), all NV "the BoS survives" endings except for one feature them acting as would be expected: basically they are high-tech weapon hoarders either "seizing any items of technology they deemed inappropriate," or "In the relative peace that followed, Brotherhood patrols appeared along major roads, harassing travelers over any bits of technology they had."

 

In other words, the Outcasts are 100% in alignment with the the WC & Mojave BoS: a "lawful stupid" neutral organization, highly likely on its way to extinction, stubbornly hoarding tech and knowledge zealously until the bitter end. Dissapointing. And sad.

Especially for power-armour and heavy weapon-loving folks like myself who hoped that those with the advanced tech would have had the advanced leadership to match.

Somehow there was a disconnect between "knowledge is power."

[Talwyn224]

Lawful Stupid - hehehe haven't heard that term for a while now... it was often thrown at players of Paladins in the NeverwinterNights server I used to play on ages ago... stiff necked idiots who can't see that the spirit of the law is more important than the letter of the law. Ahh fun times...

 

Moving on...

 

I think we've come to the consensus that the Outcasts are going to become a footnote in Fallout history due to their intransigence and inability to adapt and change.

 

They have forgotten the message and just worship the creed. In other words they [along with the WC & Mojave BoS] forgot that they were formed to perserve knowledge to rebuild humanity, not just to hoard it for hoarding sake.

 

 

Alright, now time to be a disk jockey once more. What's a disk? Hell if I know!

 

[charwo]

Well, the West Coast BoS is finished. Straight out. The further east you go, the brighter the future becomes: The Mohave Brotherhood will likely survive given the good ending is canon thing in Fallout, and if it starts making deals with NCR despite the Elders, Nolan might eventually turn it around.

 

The Midwest Brotherhood will enjoy a long and fruitful dominion over the plains, very much like the Livonia and Teutonic Orders of the Middle Ages, and for more or less the same reasons.

 

The East Coast Brotherhood will eventually become the nexus of the new United States Army. Not in Lyon's time, but as more and more of the Brotherhood are recruited from locals and the seat of the US stabilizes, plus any moderate Enclavers (mostly non-military like Whitley), it is inevitable. If there's one thing I keep seeing in the Capital Wasteland in my latest playthrough, it's a very conscious understanding the locals have of being the heirs to a grand and glorious legacy. The whole Romanoi remembering Rome in the days of Barbarism may be the one thing Bethesda got absolutely right