This doesn't make any sense

[1mjolnir1]

When I put down marauders or npcs characters they run into me like they're retarded. It takes about a full minute before they start attacking me. These are default ai packages and I haven't done anything to them at all. Please help.

[dezdimona]

if this is from MMM or any other mod that adds enemies make the mod last in your load order.

[1mjolnir1]

sweet tnx man, I was gonna do that as a very last, but it worked.

[1mjolnir1]

hey, on another note, what is like the average maximum amount of npcs to have in one cell at a time fighting? That's another reason why they weren't attacking. is there any way to make them attack even if they are surrounded by other npcs, perhaps thru script or something?

[dezdimona]

hey, on another note, what is like the average maximum amount of npcs to have in one cell at a time fighting? That's another reason why they weren't attacking. is there any way to make them attack even if they are surrounded by other npcs, perhaps thru script or something?

the game engine can support only 15 max,scripting won't overcome the limitations of the engine!

[Vagrant0]

hey, on another note, what is like the average maximum amount of npcs to have in one cell at a time fighting? That's another reason why they weren't attacking. is there any way to make them attack even if they are surrounded by other npcs, perhaps thru script or something?

the game engine can support only 15 max,scripting won't overcome the limitations of the engine!

Actually, you can go above 15, to around 30 if the conditions are right, your computer can handle it, and things are scripted specifically for that situation. However, that is IF, and only IF such conditions are present. Those conditions however are entirely impractical in 99.9% (roughly) of the ingame environments, even those added by mods. And trying to ignore those needed conditions only ends up making the entire event play out horribly. Needless to say, you would need a very good computer, by today's standards, to even be able to handle the processing and graphics for such a thing. And no, I'm not going to go into detail about what those conditions are, just accept that they require simplifying the environment and AI to extremes, which is something that nobody would ever want to use in an actual mod.

 

The 15 limit deals more with a general point where the game can no longer keep up with any AI processing. This leads to NPCs which stare blankly off into space when you approach, NPCs who stand still, or just walk toward you endlessly when combat starts, enemies moving to where you were 10 seconds ago, and poor pathing around terrain.

 

Ultimately, the solution is the same, you need fewer NPCs in that scene. Even 10 NPCs in a scene can cause occasional issues. That's just how the game is.

[1mjolnir1]

excellent, thats a very good thing to know, thank you, didn't know that before. I'll just have to change stuff around.

 

So only 15 npcs in one interior cell as well then? Or what would be like a general radius before you can safely load more npcs?

Oh and does this limitation include the player character as well?

[dezdimona]

hey, on another note, what is like the average maximum amount of npcs to have in one cell at a time fighting? That's another reason why they weren't attacking. is there any way to make them attack even if they are surrounded by other npcs, perhaps thru script or something?

the game engine can support only 15 max,scripting won't overcome the limitations of the engine!

Actually, you can go above 15, to around 30 if the conditions are right, your computer can handle it, and things are scripted specifically for that situation. However, that is IF, and only IF such conditions are present. Those conditions however are entirely impractical in 99.9% (roughly) of the ingame environments, even those added by mods. And trying to ignore those needed conditions only ends up making the entire event play out horribly. Needless to say, you would need a very good computer, by today's standards, to even be able to handle the processing and graphics for such a thing. And no, I'm not going to go into detail about what those conditions are, just accept that they require simplifying the environment and AI to extremes, which is something that nobody would ever want to use in an actual mod.

 

The 15 limit deals more with a general point where the game can no longer keep up with any AI processing. This leads to NPCs which stare blankly off into space when you approach, NPCs who stand still, or just walk toward you endlessly when combat starts, enemies moving to where you were 10 seconds ago, and poor pathing around terrain.

 

Ultimately, the solution is the same, you need fewer NPCs in that scene. Even 10 NPCs in a scene can cause occasional issues. That's just how the game is.

thanks for that info.learning of things about this game is a never ending job..

[Vagrant0]

excellent, thats a very good thing to know, thank you, didn't know that before. I'll just have to change stuff around.

 

So only 15 npcs in one interior cell as well then? Or what would be like a general radius before you can safely load more npcs?

Oh and does this limitation include the player character as well?

Although 13-15 is the maximum within a single scene (loaded area) it should be stressed that having that many in one area is NEVER good for gameplay. Every NPC in combat over 3 ends up having a significant "dumbing down" effect on the combat AI. This is why certain battles within the game, involving multiple NPCs ends up playing out rather poorly (kvatch, bruma), and why having too many companions can often make moving and fighting very difficult. 3 NPCs at once is acceptable, more than 3, and you start having minor issues (people hitting eachother, falling off ledges, getting stuck in terrain) more than 6 in combat at once, and you'll notice more of this behavior as well as other things, like choppy sounds, poor reaction time (both you and npcs). So you shouldn't see the number 15 as a "good" number by any means. It is more of an absolute maximum that you should even attempt within a mod. A better number to shoot for is encounters of 2-4 at a time. Adding more NPCs doesn't make it more challenging, or increase enjoyment from the mod, it just ruins framerates. Good modding should be spent in how you setup those encounters, and how you setup the area to work with those encounters. The total number of NPCs wthin a single interior cell however could be rather large, provided that there is enough space between encounters. The key to this is knowing the radius of activity. When in an interior, there is a sort of radius of activity around the player. Things within this radius are loaded, displayed, and processed. Things outside this radius are not. This radius is roughly 8000 units around the player. If you were trying to get as many NPCs in an interior as you can, you would need to plan the area around this radius, making it so that no more than 6 or 7 NPCs will be within this radius at any time. This is where area design plays an important role. As you are placing spawns, think about where those spawns will be moving, and where the player will encounter them. You will want to seperate your groupings by enough space so that one group is not fighting at the same time as those near it. You can further work around this by using doors, or splitting the area into seperate parts (like most default interiors). Where you have more NPCs, have fewer detail items like clutter, chests, furniture.

 

The best advice would be to look at how some of the vanilla caves and ruined forts are planned. Many of them were designed specifically to work around some of the AI limitations within the game. Although these may not be as intense as you may be wanting, when you considder how well these areas play, compared to some of the npc clogged dungeons of OOO, it's clear, more is not always better. As mentioned, to make an area challenging or fun, you should probably focus on planning out how you want each encounter to play out, adding scripting, packaging and such where needed.

[1mjolnir1]

awsum tnx, very good information. I'll use that to my knowledge down the road.