Fahrenheit 9/11...

[tyjet3]

Look, you didn't understand me... I am simply saying don't turn every single thread about politics in to bush bashing... Every single one of them has been... Plus you are not a government offical so you don't have any idea what is not being told to the public. The only people that i think have a full right to bash bush are people that know ALL the facts.

 

Most of the people on this forum are younger people or in there twenties and are not fully developed in intelligence. Most people aren't even old enough to know if they got the facts right, because they got it from their parents or some other unreliable source. You cannot tell me that every source you have of "bush bashing" matterial is 100% true. Most of it is twisted facts to make things look worse than they really are.

 

Plus you are not trying to turn people from bush, you are forcing people to believe what you believe (which are theories on the bush admin, not facts)... big difference buddy...

 

I love how "open minded" people are supposd to accept everyone's ideas but they will never accept a "closed minded" person's opinions...

[surian]

show me which one of my points was not a fact and I'll conceed the point to you. You are right, I'm not a government official and I don't know everything that's going on in the world. I can only see what I can see. However, by your theory we never have any right to disagree with the government ever again because they know what's best and we are just the ignorant masses. That's fascism... buddy.

 

Oh, and I"m not forcing anyone to do anything. I don't have a gun to anyone's head here, nor would I WANT to force people into my point of view. How on earth you think you can accuse me of that I have no idea.

 

Plus I don't think it's appropriate for me to be labled a closed minded individual (as your post was saying). Find me a point that was made by either you or untouchable1 in this thread that was actually intelligent and factual that I did not either agree with or admit my mistake to and THEN you can call me closed minded... as far as I can see that did not happen.

[tyjet3]

1. Never said anything about no disagreeing with the government, that is your right. All I'm saying is the public will never know all the facts, so why create some theroy about the admin's ideas?

 

2. Sorry, force was the wrong word, poison is better... My point as that YOU DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING SO DON'T ACT LIKE IT!!!

 

3. An "open minded" person doesn't pick apart someones post and tells them they are wrong. I'm not saying I like bush but, can you not just accept a bush supportor? You could have simply said, "ok, that's your opinion. Here is mine..." Much easier and stops flaming from ever happening, but no... Everytime a bush supporter or a republican voices on this forum they get set a mountain of posts in return (never good ones, and you are always there might I add)... I'm just saying lighten up on the whole bashing bush thing... is that so hard?...

[Zmid]

Look, you didn't understand me... I am simply saying don't turn every single thread about politics in to bush bashing... Every single one of them has been

So we shouldn't bash Bush, not because what we say is wrong, but because we should take pity on him? Not likely.

 

Plus you are not a government offical so you don't have any idea what is not being told to the public. The only people that i think have a full right to bash bush are people that know ALL the facts.

 

Yes, there are things not being told to the public. That is practically standard operating procedure for the UK and US governments regarding just about anything. How do you know anything of any real significance is being hidden? I'm pretty damn certain there's not.

 

Does this also mean we should not complain or make any kind of judgement until absolutely everything about every part of this is known? Most of it already is, but, if you are saying that, this means all both the US and UK governments have to do to duck this one is keep something, anything, hidden (or, at least, claim they are). Frankly, that is nonsense, in my opinion.

 

Most of the people on this forum are younger people or in there twenties and are not fully developed in intelligence. Most people aren't even old enough to know if they got the facts right, because they got it from their parents or some other unreliable source.

 

Well I've gotten it from the extremely unreliable sources of official government documents, reports by the people who were actually there (ie Hans Blix and David Kay) and other things of that nature. Please note the sarcasm in the phrase 'extremely unreliable'.

 

You cannot tell me that every source you have of "bush bashing" matterial is 100% true. Most of it is twisted facts to make things look worse than they really are.

 

Well, if you look at the documents I have posted links to earlier on in this thread, they are an official British MoD document detailing the objectives of the Iraq War and the testimony of Marc Grossman, US Under Secretary for Political Affairs to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. If these are 'twisted facts' then you are basically accusing Marc Grossman of lying to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and the British MoD lying to, basically, everyone. My other claims come from various sources, such as Hans Blix's pre-war report to the UN and the UN Charter.

 

Plus you are not trying to turn people from bush, you are forcing people to believe what you believe (which are theories on the bush admin, not facts)... big difference buddy...

 

Firstly, surian is not forcing anyone to do anything. If someone doesn't like what he posts, they can just navigate away from this page.

 

Secondly, if you are saying that what surian claims are facts are not factually correct, please explain what makes you believe this.

 

I love how "open minded" people are supposd to accept everyone's ideas but they will never accept a "closed minded" person's opinions...

 

Do I accept you have the right to have those opinions? Yes, most certainly. Do I accept those opinions as being correct? Due to the absence of evidence supporting them, and the presence of much evidence denying them, no, I don't.

 

As such, this is a debate. This is why it's in the 'Debates' board.

[surian]

Edit: This was written just as I was posting my post:

Do I accept you have the right to have those opinions? Yes, most certainly. Do I accept those opinions as being correct? Due to the absence of evidence supporting them, and the presence of much evidence denying them, no, I don't.

 

As such, this is a debate. This is why it's in the 'Debates' board.

That's exactly what I feel, this is a debate board... as I explain below /edit.

 

Well, I can't say that I'm always here on these subjects because I only really started posting regularly in the last month, and I never even saw this particular board until after I became a MEMod Teamster and started really looking trhough the boards. I think this is actually the only thread I've really gotten this involved with too.

 

But I still don't see your point. I frequent another board that is full of conservatives and every time anyone says something against Bush they get flamed to high heaven for it, so it's not like it's only one way on this issue. As for you saying that i'm closed minded I repeat my point: This is a debate... we argue here... if you have something to bring to the table then that's fine but be prepared to defend your point of view. If you don't want to be a part of the discussion then don't be a part of it.

 

I also never claimed to know everything. However, what I DO know is what I posted here, if you know something else let me know and we can debate it too. I think the issue here is that you don't understand the essence of a debate. I can accept someone who supports Bush, I have republican friends. Yet, in a debate, you accept the fact that there will be opposing views and that you may have to defend yourself from them.

 

Also, I feel strongly about these things and so I try to change people's views by pointing out mine, so no, I won't just leave it alone. I would also say that I did exactly what you said I should do. I said "Here is my opinion on the subject". What you call picking apart someone's post is what I call having a debate. You assert your views and I take what you said and find counte-examples to it. Then you try to do the same and we go back and forth until we either get tired of it or one of us agrees with the other. What's the point? The point of a debate is to make you think about things and I feel that this thread has been doing an excellent job of making people think about WHY they believe what they believe.

 

Edit: I would also like to point out that I was going to stop my activity in this thread a few days ago on my own, I even posted saying so. If you wanted this thread to stop and the Bush bashing herein to stop you shouldn't have posted a follow up argument.

[tyjet3]

To tell you the truth my first post after you said you were going to stop was telling everyone to stop!! I said this:

 

Look.... I don't support everything bush does... BUT I AM SO TIRED OF BUSH BASHING!!! JUST LET IT GO!!!

So you continued it buddy, not me...

[Untouchable1]

Peregrine:

As for the film, it's propaganda. I don't care about half true propaganda from either side.

we could have just left it at that but the devs had to spit on it and build their little fortress on it, raining down quote arrows to any an onlooker, and sitting back in their little chairs thinking that because its even remotely about politics that they should be hailed as high diplomats or something.

 

a warning to anyone reading this post, please do not post in this thread unless you enjoy your words chopped and screwed and regurgitated onto a rusty dwemer platter. just ignore them and maybe they'll go away.

 

maybe if were lucky Switch will come down with his signature :rip: and put an end to this mockery.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

quote me you vultures...

[Peregrine]

Untouchable, what the hell do you expect from the DEBATE forum? That's the whole point of this forum, to DEBATE the issue not just post opinions and leave it at that. If you don't want your arguments to be replied to, DON'T POST IN DEBATE THREADS. Simple enough for you?

[surian]

amen Peregrine.

 

tyjet, here's the rest of your post.

If you hate bush so much just vote him out next election!! Quit writing books, making movies, and started potential bush bashing posts... It's been going on for 4 years, do you people have no lives?!?! Just let it vulking go!!!!!

 

that was baiting... so don't act all innocent there. However, you are right too, I should not have responded to it but I just don't like being insulted.

[Evilsincarnation]

Ok hers my rant

 

Hes a good film maker. I'm not saying you agree with his message, but he structures his movies extremly well.

 

I know not all of the stuff in this movie is true, but you have to love the scene where he asks congress member if they would allow their kids to fight in the war, and every last one says "No!."

I got a kick out of that.