LE Lore-Friendly Valkyrie race/items and NPCs?

[Strokend]

maybe more like the ones in wow or you can just give a girl wings ghost effect and steel plate armor and i too dont like does mods whats the thing about playing a girl with big boobs soo it would be cool to see them bieng strong as the nord seems too be and not skimpy.

There's no harm in making it compatible with CBBE/UNP and Better Males, but yeah, as prebuilt NPCs they should come with actual platemail, not bikinimail.

Beauty and cheap sexual fantasy are two totally different things bud. Beauty doesn't mean monster sized breasts and a large butt. Valkyries were always described as a thing of beauty to begin with, and I'm sorry but just because something is beautiful doesn't mean its fragile or feminine at all. A Valkyrie should be like... Like a 1969 Mustang Fastback, Strong and grounded. Full of power and energy, yet at the same time being sleek and stylized. In essence pure beauty.

 

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/9363/iomedae.jpg

 

 

Not exactly large and musculur, but gives off a vibe of being warhardened and capable of standing her own while still having a beautiful look. Even with the scars, it's a stunning image, and if they were removed, she wouldn't look any less lethal.

[Hotemochick1992]

I wish i could view the "spoiler" but it wont let me, even if i click the button.

[Danman804]

Beauty and cheap sexual fantasy are two totally different things bud. Beauty doesn't mean monster sized breasts and a large butt. Valkyries were always described as a thing of beauty to begin with, and I'm sorry but just because something is beautiful doesn't mean its fragile or feminine at all. A Valkyrie should be like... Like a 1969 Mustang Fastback, Strong and grounded. Full of power and energy, yet at the same time being sleek and stylized. In essence pure beauty.

 

'Bud' you are acting like you just got pricked in your soft spot. Sensitive issue to you?

 

As much as you would like to think so, I am afraid you need to be reminded that it takes two to tango to a tune. Just because YOU would like those two to be separate and distinguishable doesn't mean instincts and views of the other gender is subject to your own interpretations. You need to be able to exert that image onto others, and no matter how you try to emphasize that 'beauty' and 'cheap sexual fantasies' are not the same, it can be readily viewed that way by another gender much more easily and it is far more difficult than you imagine for them to be persuaded otherwise. If you float around like a fairy with sparkles and glowing wings, don't be surprised when another party views you as such. Innate beauty and strong ideas of power needs to exert themselves, not just act in whatever way you want and expect everyone else to be persuaded to your own little tune. You talk about mustang, but what you are presenting is more like a mini coup painted in pink and flowers. It really shows your separation from reality and favoring your own little fantasies that is far detached from reality.

 

If you think you can live off in your little fantasy where everything you want and wish for is how others are supposed to view you, than know that others are just as capable of doing so on their own terms. What you wish for to be 'beautiful' and 'dignified' at the same time may not necessarily be what you want.

 

You might wish people view someone doing whatever they want as how you would view them, but the cold reality is that you won't get too far simply trying to insist that your shallow view of 'beauty' is what other people should think of it as.

 

Real beauty and power embodied within the concept of Valkyrie is quite far from cheap concept your think of as 'beauty' on your own terms. Very ironic you think you actually know something about the dynamics of perception or 'beauty' when the first idea you presented was quite shallow to begin with.

 

This shallow concept of beauty is exactly what we are trying to avoid here. Anyone up to the challenge? I might even throw in a septim or two if that's allowed :)

[Strokend]

Hotemochick1992, on 26 Feb 2013 - 15:12, said:

I wish i could view the "spoiler" but it wont let me, even if i click the button.

The url to it is http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/9363/iomedae.jpg.

[Zaldir]

Danman, chill. Hotemochick was just stating her view, and she was in no way telling you how it should be. You also seem to be misreading her quite a bit, as she seem to be agreeing with you on most points about the Valkyrie being beautiful but strong.

 

And with that aside: If you want to stay true to Norse Mythology, you should not have any male Valkyries. Simply because there are none.

Everything you need to know about the Valkyries can be found here really.

[Danman804]

Zaldiir, on 26 Feb 2013 - 17:03, said:

Danman, chill. Hotemochick was just stating her view, and she was in no way telling you how it should be. You also seem to be misreading her quite a bit, as she seem to be agreeing with you on most points about the Valkyrie being beautiful but strong.

 

And with that aside: If you want to stay true to Norse Mythology, you should not have any male Valkyries. Simply because there are none.

Everything you need to know about the Valkyries can be found here really.

I believe by her carelessly shooting her mouth off at things she barely understands with laughably undue sense of 'know this' attitude kinda brought it on herself. Most things are two-way streets, and you should not expect anything less if you don't know any better.

 

That being said, the main problem here is that it is so easy to fall in to a misconception about what exactly essence of Valkyrie entails with out doing so on purpose, as she demonstrated quite clearly.

 

The sticking point is that it is so easy to superimpose the relatively modern image of Valkyrie there by inadvertently screwing up the images we are trying to bring out, because it is very difficult for us with our point of view about female warriors to imagine them in a way they were not intended to be perceived. The key is to break through that misconception, done willingly or not, and portray the Valkyries in such a way as to stay true to their role as grim reapers of old.

 

Let's keep brainstorming here, I think we already have a couple of good points (aside from that image from Valkyrie profile which we must avoid, but that's still a point nonetheless if only to know what we should not do).

Edited February 27, 2013 by Danman804

[Hotemochick1992]

 

Hotemochick1992, on 26 Feb 2013 - 15:12, said:

I wish i could view the "spoiler" but it wont let me, even if i click the button.

The url to it is http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/9363/iomedae.jpg.

 

 

Hotemochick1992, on 26 Feb 2013 - 15:12, said:

I wish i could view the "spoiler" but it wont let me, even if i click the button.

The url to it is http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/9363/iomedae.jpg.

 

Yeah this is pretty much what I was talking about.

[Strokend]

it is so easy to superimpose the relatively modern image of Valkyrie there by inadvertently screwing up the images we are trying to bring out, because it is very difficult for us with our point of view about female warriors to imagine them in a way they were not intended to be perceived.

Hmm? That's pretty easy to do actually. They're not meant to be percieved as a bikinimail clad s!@£, and yet that's how many people percieve them.

 

emochick and I were both stating that "Beauty" would be nice along with the warrior look, as long as you played it right. You're right in that a lot of people misunderstand the meaning of beauty to be sexy; others yet misunderstand it to be cute. However, there are people who understand the meaning of "The beauty of combat"--This is what we're aiming for. Some people see combat as barbaric. Just hacking and slashing at everything possible.

 

Beautiful combat is not just hacking and slashing. It's when you apply a form of art to your combat techniques. To actually use techniques, even. A Nordic warrior looks entirely gruff, dirt across his face, no shame about scars, and warpaint coating it. His hair is likely unkempt, and he has a lot of muscle.

 

Look instead at an Imperial warrior. Imperials are an offshoot of Nord, and yet they aren't gruff in their appearance. Sure, they may have scars, even dirt, but they aren't some musclebound oafs. They put order into their combat. Their hair is combed, brushed, or ponytailed. They have the look of a warrior, but they show it with grace.

 

The Nord care about battle before law, whereas the Imperials care about law before battle. Yes, some Nord will braid their hair, but otherwise it's just left flowing; the hair on Imperials typically goes back, with only a few letting it just flow naturally.

 

I know, hair is only a small part of the picture, but it's the easiest available example of Man to Man comparison (Mer are too fragile). I'd imagine the Valkyries to be somewhat Imperial like: law before battle. They may a little less concerned with law than Imperial, but it's a good standpoint for comparison.

[Hotemochick1992]

Exactly. Love you Strokend :biggrin:

[Danman804]

 

 

it is so easy to superimpose the relatively modern image of Valkyrie there by inadvertently screwing up the images we are trying to bring out, because it is very difficult for us with our point of view about female warriors to imagine them in a way they were not intended to be perceived.

Hmm? That's pretty easy to do actually. They're not meant to be percieved as a bikinimail clad s!@£, and yet that's how many people percieve them.

 

emochick and I were both stating that "Beauty" would be nice along with the warrior look, as long as you played it right. You're right in that a lot of people misunderstand the meaning of beauty to be sexy; others yet misunderstand it to be cute. However, there are people who understand the meaning of "The beauty of combat"--This is what we're aiming for. Some people see combat as barbaric. Just hacking and slashing at everything possible.

 

Beautiful combat is not just hacking and slashing. It's when you apply a form of art to your combat techniques. To actually use techniques, even. A Nordic warrior looks entirely gruff, dirt across his face, no shame about scars, and warpaint coating it. His hair is likely unkempt, and he has a lot of muscle.

 

Look instead at an Imperial warrior. Imperials are an offshoot of Nord, and yet they aren't gruff in their appearance. Sure, they may have scars, even dirt, but they aren't some musclebound oafs. They put order into their combat. Their hair is combed, brushed, or ponytailed. They have the look of a warrior, but they show it with grace.

 

The Nord care about battle before law, whereas the Imperials care about law before battle. Yes, some Nord will braid their hair, but otherwise it's just left flowing; the hair on Imperials typically goes back, with only a few letting it just flow naturally.

 

I know, hair is only a small part of the picture, but it's the easiest available example of Man to Man comparison (Mer are too fragile). I'd imagine the Valkyries to be somewhat Imperial like: law before battle. They may a little less concerned with law than Imperial, but it's a good standpoint for comparison.

 

That, however, is exactly where the real idea of valkyrie conflicts with our ideas about their essence.

 

The idea that law and raging combat form some kind of dichotomy, or especially the idea that she cannot be truly entirely beautiful as a Valkyrie if she does not have that essential character of order and law in her bearing is precisely why we cannot fathom the idea that brutal and gruff combat in women (or female demi-gods) cannot be truly beautiful. This is skyrim, and namely norse-inspired land with its comparable myths, and it seems we just can't get past the shallow idea that there MUST be some 'beautiful' form of order and constraint upon the female valkyries to make them complete, when in fact they were just as brutal and powerful as their male asgardians, well respected precisely because they were able to stand on their own two feet without being supported by constraints of who they 'should' be, and thus looked upon as an almost idealized form of female nord role model.

 

The idea that these women must have some kind of 'refined' or 'ordered' quality to them to be truly seen as beautiful is a truly an exercise in self-deception - it pretends to understand the deeper qualities of beauty and feminine role in norse-inspired mythology when you are in fact indulging in an even deeper series of hypocrisy by calling such self-imposed stereotypes as 'deeper beauty', congratulating yourself for such 'insightful' views, all the while ignoring and flat out desperately denying the idea that if what is seen today as truly 'masculine' was in fact the norm of the ways back then, for men and women alike, no matter how difficult it is for you to swallow and accept such thoughts.

 

In fact, we have so degraded our view of masculinity and femininity that we desperately lash out against such 'masculine' form of behavior from Valkyrie as 'unrefined' or 'not beautiful'. I for one see nothing overtly masculine in a valkyrie that does not require your brand of 'order' and 'tactics', which is actually what all warriors are required to know. The idea that nord men are supposed to be brutish, unthinking warriors is also flat out wrong - a concentrated, unlimited, and raging force focused upon one individual against an enemy is in actuality one of the pinnacles of tactical clarity and concentration that requires a honed and ironically disciplined mind of the utmost quality.

 

We are deeply mistaken if we think we can somehow reconcile our reluctance to attach modern form of masculinity to Valkyrie without distorting their essential character as understood in the beginning of their mythology, or its norse-inspired lands of skyrim. What we view as overtly masculine form of behavior is in fact the defacto norm of that mythology and society upon which skyrim is inspired by. Even so, no, especially because of that, Valkyries were beautiful and terrible messengers of battlefield. Your observations and interpretations are ultimately a self-deceiving attempt at trying to fragilely impose modern myopic views about ancient mythology upon the myth itself, whose only saving grace is that we might just be too ignorant about the ancient people to truly understand their concept of beauty and power embodied within these mythical figures of Valkyrie.

 

We can't put pretty words together and pretend things are not the way they are, or paint stripes on a pumpkin and call it a watermelon. What we are trying to create here is a truly, as close-to-orginal as possible Valkyries, not overtly feminized and wall-flower like images of Valkyrie that seems to appeal to people with only modern sense of what the myths of norse people should be.

 

Think second image of the second post here, and NOT the first image of that post, and we get the idea. We should also not tolerate trying to 'tie-down' or otherwise 're-interpret' the ideas of Valkyrie to what may be easier to swallow for other people. It is we who should adjust our thinking to become more comfortable with the idea of 'overtly masculine-valkyrie-by-modern-standards', not the other way around. By doing so, we can really talk about creating an authentic, serious portrayal of these mythological figures whose real grace and strength is in many ways unfathomable to people with degraded sense of modern day myopia.

 

Edit: Having a few scars or darker presence doesn't make a figure any more really look 'war-hardened' or 'masculine' in a real sense. Our feelings about how we view these figures must be at least a little more deeper than that.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Danman804