Michlo Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I'm sick and tired of this whole mess over there but even though I'm no lover of Muslims thanks to all their extremists, I'm disgusted by Israel's actions. As far as I'm concerned they should never have been given land which already had people in it. I understand it was reparations for the holocaust but then why didn't Germany set aside land for them or somewhere that didn't already have people in place such as parts of Australia? Furthermore, you don't see the other religions having their own state and again, if it was reparations for the holocaust what about all the other groups which suffered such as the gypsies and gays? Where are their states? I'm so upset that this is how our new year of change is starting out, especially since we see that idiot Bush supporting Israel and of course, despite all of our problems here we're still giving them a TON Of money each month. Gaaaahhh. I say the world should leave them both to sort themselves out, as cold as that may sound but Israel should stop claiming more and more land from people who were there before them. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7808231.stm http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090103/ap_on_...wh/bush_mideast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herosinger Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 I say the world should leave them both to sort themselves out...Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrideAssassin Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Because there really weren't people living there. It was a wasteland. The Israelis came in, built infrastructure and irrigation systems, made it quasi-livable, and all of a sudden Muslims start flooding in crying about "their" land. The only thing that's "yours" is what you can hold on to. Just ask the "native" Americans. (who migrated from Asia, making them... Not native. That's for a different debate...)Israel suffers a PR problem because they over react to the smallest aggression and pound the poo out of the instigator. Seein' as how the Muslims keep lobbing their piddly little hobby rockets into Israel knowing full well what will come of it, one must infer that they LIKE getting bombed. Hell, they bomb themselves! I think I'm on to something here...Seriously though, you'd think they'd figure out by now you can set it down and walk away, and live to bomb another day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myrmaad Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Because there really weren't people living there. It was a wasteland. The Israelis came in, built infrastructure and irrigation systems, made it quasi-livable, and all of a sudden Muslims start flooding in crying about "their" land. The only thing that's "yours" is what you can hold on to. Just ask the "native" Americans. (who migrated from Asia, making them... Not native. That's for a different debate...)Israel suffers a PR problem because they over react to the smallest aggression and pound the poo out of the instigator. Seein' as how the Muslims keep lobbing their piddly little hobby rockets into Israel knowing full well what will come of it, one must infer that they LIKE getting bombed. Hell, they bomb themselves! I think I'm on to something here...Seriously though, you'd think they'd figure out by now you can set it down and walk away, and live to bomb another day... We were still here before you were though. It's an illegal occupation and they couldn't hold their own without us to run and hide behind. But I guess in this game, whoever deals dirtiest wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrideAssassin Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 We were still here before you were though. And the moral of your story is? If you can't hold it, guess what? It's not "yours" anymore. "We"? If "We" were born before 1978, then "we" was here before me. If you were born after that, guess what? I was here before you. Am I more native than someone born in 1979? No. I'm just as native as they are. Don't be bitter because they got played, and fell due to their greed and petty rivalries. It's an illegal occupation and they couldn't hold their own without us to run and hide behind.Illegal? By who's law? The Arabs who weren't even living there? Illegal? Go arrest them. But I guess in this game, whoever deals dirtiest wins.That's any game... For the record, I don't even like Israel. I don't like Israelis. I don't like Jewish dogma or their perpetual claims of victimhood. Ultimately however, I don't care because it doesn't impact my particular monkey troop. They CAN live there, they ARE living there, and they will CONTINUE to live there. The Arabs can't do anything about it, short of nuking the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaysus Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 @pride assasin get your facts straight... its an illegal occupation by the geneva convention (noone gives a fork tho...us cops use banned ammo for example lol) and the oslo treaty as well as others - actually they do the same as the nazis did - but ya illegal by what means? sanity? kants categorical imperative? laws? dunno make a choice it all works... and no the israelis were not the ones who brought civilizationthat was bugs bunny actually...whatever the arabs had quite some cities there in which jews and arabs dwelled alike and saying now that israel rules the land since 50 yrs that they created it is a joke... what do you think the arabs would have created by now? noone knows... but more than what ohio ever created for sure... judaism is by description a waring religion in sharp opposition to islam (which only fared war in self defence) - they are real fanatics who even kill their own to get their way (moses gets down the hill and slaughters half his people)... resemblance to the holocoust? i dunno...(religion is a social tool afterall... a nasty one indeed) --------------------------back on topic...-------------------------- hitlers war effort was payed for by some rich and famous jews and not just those he robbed blind, those were actuall victims, the reperation money however never reached those but rests in the stash of the israely treasury (which is led by those that finaced hitler strangely)...as the plan and legislation to create israel was in the works since ww1 yet (not talking bout that zionist crap fake) one might even argue that those commanding mr. barfour, namely lord rothshild and his allegiance, provoked or at least wanted a ww2 with its holocaust to achieve that goal. -------------------------- its not somin called israel, as it is not about somin called al quaida, its a faux... there are 3 main countries and some remote islands which were occupied by the un after WW2 - japan, israel and germany + islands like chagos or greenland and gotham cityisrael and germany at least have no constitution, dunno bout japan, chagos and the like have no population at all anymore, they were deported why these 3 countries? well... israel connects africa, europe and central asiajapan has strategical access to the far east and germany to the heart of europe and deep into russiagotham city is home to lotsa superheroes all these became major outposts to spread the dollars reach of influence and extend its power aswell as major military bases (germany holds more us and uk mil. fascilities than the iraq for example - 600+ (us only) including nukes) ---------------------------- fanatics are almost always government payed or at least manipulated killers and not freedom fighters as they are depicted ---------------------------- too many people suffer for the richness of a few, and seeing people strave next door whilst i feed the pigeons would freak me out but then again, do the israelis even know? no! they f*!§$! dont! ---------------------------- its easy to be tricked into war if your family is dying - even if you have to use suicide attacks or crude rocketssame goes the other way around for the israeli population but with having fear more than actual suffering ---------------------------- neighbours who know each other dont kill each other (in 99% of the cases lol) - but thx to walls of concrete and steel, media manipulation and the like noone down there knows... ---------------------------- hail loke! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michlo Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 Good post, Jaysus. This has GOT to stop. The whole world (well except for Bush no doubt) is asking them to stop. How is this helping anybody? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macmert Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Because there really weren't people living there. It was a wasteland. The Israelis came in, built infrastructure and irrigation systems, made it quasi-livable, and all of a sudden Muslims start flooding in crying about "their" land. The only thing that's "yours" is what you can hold on to. Just ask the "native" Americans. (who migrated from Asia, making them... Not native. That's for a different debate...)Israel suffers a PR problem because they over react to the smallest aggression and pound the poo out of the instigator. Seein' as how the Muslims keep lobbing their piddly little hobby rockets into Israel knowing full well what will come of it, one must infer that they LIKE getting bombed. Hell, they bomb themselves! I think I'm on to something here...Seriously though, you'd think they'd figure out by now you can set it down and walk away, and live to bomb another day... first, if it was a wasteland before the jews, why would they migrate there in the first place... Second the muslims didnt "flood" in, they were already living there... Third, the jews claim the land based on their holy book, to end their Exodus... After that they tried to drive out the muslims there... Crusades ring a bell? They were backed by England after the WW1 to go and "invade" the lands... The pact was that the jews would be peaceful and live side by side with the muslims there, guess what? didnt happen... this actions were even backed by the jews in USA back then cause they didnt want their fellow jew people to come back to US and get in the economic system, that would mean less profit for the jews back in US... I am not saying what hamas did was legal or just... I am just saying they were pushed to be extreme because of the jews... The situation went downhill after the death of Yaser Arafat... How would you feel if a new neigbor moves in next door, comes to your door and offers cookies and a warm conversation, the next day he would come and offer your whole family shotgun shells, bust their brains out and then forces you to leave your home... Will you say "he earned my home by blood and killed my whole family so he has the right to "claim" my home." We are living in a "civilized" world, it may not look like it but the rules are to maintain peace, not to be broken... Both sides are not playing by the rules but one side is aggressive doesnt mean the other side should resort to violence too... We are not living in a jungle, so the powerful shall not and will not trample down the weak... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisnpuppy Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Since I think that this debate is as insane as the actual fighting....I mean if you think there groups of people have only been fighting for the last 50 years or so then you are nutty. These folks have been and will be fighting for THOUSANDS OF YEARS. They fight for things that most of us in Western Society cannot understand. Now my thoughts on the National State of Israel are my own. I will however say that when other countries get in the business of hacking up property willy-nilly (as happened a lot after the Second World War) is basically a bad idea. It has not turned out well in any instance. However I believe there was a great deal of guilt and political savvy in making a Jewish State at the time. I mean come on...(and someone said something about Jewish victimization..And yes I am sure there are some but how many of us can say our parents, grandparents or ourselves survived a 6 million person ethnic cleansing? Just the last in a long line of ant-Semitism.) Bad things had just happened and I am sure many politicians in the West saw a Jewish state as a significant Western presence in the area.....a presence that we in the West have been trying to make since the crusades. Now if we wish to get technical....maybe the Greeks should get invited to the party since it is well recognized by historians and archaeologist the famous or infamous Philistines were in fact, Mycenae Greeks that moved into the Gaza strip at about the same time that Joshua was tearing down those walls.... These people are not really fighting over a very small strip of land...they are fighting over religious and cultural identity and if you think the Western Powers are just there to mind the oil you are mistaken. Everything we know and think and our entire outlook on life (whatever you may think of these people or the beliefs) has been directly affected by the shaping of the beliefs of the Children of Abraham..both of them. Jewish belief was so different than other religions at the time that it was like the difference between a sling-shot and a Maine Class Tank. The very way most of us look at life is affected by this change. And the Arabs basically saved higher knowledge when the Western World was arse-deep in dead bodies from the bubonic plague. We have much to respect from both these peoples.But you will not move any of them. None of them will ever just say..oh well it’s been fifty years lets just let by gones be bygones. Again..most of a Western mind cannot understand these feelings. Why do you think that both Arabs and Israeli fight over every significant historical discovery made? Why they keep each other out of each other’s religious areas of places that they clearly share holy respect for? What would happen if the Muslims suddenly invited the Jews onto the Rock of the Mount and they dug down and found something crazy like the Ark of the Covenant? Or writing and dating proving their providence in the area back to 2000B.C.? Or they found Muhammad's footprints in the rock? It would destroy the people and a great many Western folk that practice Judea-Christian Religions. Now the US needs to stop taking sides in this one. They need to assist these people in learning to live together in some semblance of peace. The State of Israel is legitimate in every sense that matters....and it is not going anywhere. The World Oked its conception and the United Nations and powers of the time supported its creation. It is recognized and that is that. Force of any kind needs to stop. Fighting needs to stop...but both sides and both should be handled by the US (as I am from here I will speak in that term) equally in severity. The best things we as individuals can do it a great deal of study on this topic..reading the daily news will not explain to you all the things that are going on here....I suggest strongly you start with the Torah and The Qur’an and go forth from there. There are many wonderful books on the subject that address the outlook on life these groups have and also some of the wonderful things both have brought to the world. I would be happy to suggest some for those that are interested. However to try to debate the existence of the State and the right of whom to the land is something of a fruitless task..Better to debate how we can clear the way to help these people keep an open dialogue and find some way to peace. And Jaysus....I think you need to do a bit more of religious studies...you make some good points but neither the Judaic or Islamic religion is more war-like that others. However monotheism itself leads to intolerance...after all someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong. Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same god after all. All are Children of Abraham and Moses. And to think that the Holocaust was a means to an end to create a Jewish State is something I find very disturbing. And it belittles one to think and speak this in any serious manner. I know of no other people that can speak to such devastating prejudice while the entire "civilized" world watched it happen. Please Sir you forget yourself and also your spell checker it appears. Michlo---well..The Vatican is a country and so I guess other religions do have their own state. However the State of Israel does not only see itself as a religious state...but an ethnic one also. Religion and ethnicity is inseperatable in the Jewish mind. And there are many other countries that still exist and have a state religion which tolerates none other. I challenge all of you....to find a Jewish person and Muslim person...maybe go to your local Mosque or Synagogue and speak to these people. Ask them questions about their beliefs and issues. I would be willing to bet most of you have never knowingly spoken more than 5 words to these groups...and see what they say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrideAssassin Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Since I think that this debate is as insane as the actual fighting....I mean if you think there groups of people have only been fighting for the last 50 years or so then you are nutty. These folks have been and will be fighting for THOUSANDS OF YEARS. They fight for things that most of us in Western Society cannot understand. Now my thoughts on the National State of Israel are my own. I will however say that when other countries get in the business of hacking up property willy-nilly (as happened a lot after the Second World War) is basically a bad idea. It has not turned out well in any instance. However I believe there was a great deal of guilt and political savvy in making a Jewish State at the time. I mean come on...(and someone said something about Jewish victimization..And yes I am sure there are some but how many of us can say our parents, grandparents or ourselves survived a 6 million person ethnic cleansing? Just the last in a long line of ant-Semitism.) Bad things had just happened and I am sure many politicians in the West saw a Jewish state as a significant Western presence in the area.....a presence that we in the West have been trying to make since the crusades. Now if we wish to get technical....maybe the Greeks should get invited to the party since it is well recognized by historians and archaeologist the famous or infamous Philistines were in fact, Mycenae Greeks that moved into the Gaza strip at about the same time that Joshua was tearing down those walls.... These people are not really fighting over a very small strip of land...they are fighting over religious and cultural identity and if you think the Western Powers are just there to mind the oil you are mistaken. Everything we know and think and our entire outlook on life (whatever you may think of these people or the beliefs) has been directly affected by the shaping of the beliefs of the Children of Abraham..both of them. Jewish belief was so different than other religions at the time that it was like the difference between a sling-shot and a Maine Class Tank. The very way most of us look at life is affected by this change. And the Arabs basically saved higher knowledge when the Western World was arse-deep in dead bodies from the bubonic plague. We have much to respect from both these peoples.But you will not move any of them. None of them will ever just say..oh well it’s been fifty years lets just let by gones be bygones. Again..most of a Western mind cannot understand these feelings. Why do you think that both Arabs and Israeli fight over every significant historical discovery made? Why they keep each other out of each other’s religious areas of places that they clearly share holy respect for? What would happen if the Muslims suddenly invited the Jews onto the Rock of the Mount and they dug down and found something crazy like the Ark of the Covenant? Or writing and dating proving their providence in the area back to 2000B.C.? Or they found Muhammad's footprints in the rock? It would destroy the people and a great many Western folk that practice Judea-Christian Religions. Now the US needs to stop taking sides in this one. They need to assist these people in learning to live together in some semblance of peace. The State of Israel is legitimate in every sense that matters....and it is not going anywhere. The World Oked its conception and the United Nations and powers of the time supported its creation. It is recognized and that is that. Force of any kind needs to stop. Fighting needs to stop...but both sides and both should be handled by the US (as I am from here I will speak in that term) equally in severity. The best things we as individuals can do it a great deal of study on this topic..reading the daily news will not explain to you all the things that are going on here....I suggest strongly you start with the Torah and The Qur’an and go forth from there. There are many wonderful books on the subject that address the outlook on life these groups have and also some of the wonderful things both have brought to the world. I would be happy to suggest some for those that are interested. However to try to debate the existence of the State and the right of whom to the land is something of a fruitless task..Better to debate how we can clear the way to help these people keep an open dialogue and find some way to peace. And Jaysus....I think you need to do a bit more of religious studies...you make some good points but neither the Judaic or Islamic religion is more war-like that others. However monotheism itself leads to intolerance...after all someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong. Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same god after all. All are Children of Abraham and Moses. And to think that the Holocaust was a means to an end to create a Jewish State is something I find very disturbing. And it belittles one to think and speak this in any serious manner. I know of no other people that can speak to such devastating prejudice while the entire "civilized" world watched it happen. Please Sir you forget yourself and also your spell checker it appears. Michlo---well..The Vatican is a country and so I guess other religions do have their own state. However the State of Israel does not only see itself as a religious state...but an ethnic one also. Religion and ethnicity is inseperatable in the Jewish mind. And there are many other countries that still exist and have a state religion which tolerates none other. I challenge all of you....to find a Jewish person and Muslim person...maybe go to your local Mosque or Synagogue and speak to these people. Ask them questions about their beliefs and issues. I would be willing to bet most of you have never knowingly spoken more than 5 words to these groups...and see what they say.Meh, I have Jewish and Muslim associates. They are corteous. Not every Jew or Muslim is an extremist. It's called the 2% lunatic fringe for a reason... And yes, I am sick and tired of the "Jew-as-victim" line of BS. 8 million Russians died in that war. They do not portray themselves as victims.People die. That's what they do. Get over it already. The "entire civilized world" did not "watch it happen". Everyday Germans knew nothing about it, let alone the rest of the world. As for getting the U.S. out of the middle east's business, there are too many psycho X-tians who want to rebuild the Jewish Temple in order to bring about the Second Coming, not to mention wealthy American Jews, for that to ever happen. That, and now Iraq, to an extent, is our outpost. America has invested too much in Israel to just walk away. That's just goofy. Let 'em fight. Hopefully it spreads. War is good. It purges the weak and stupid. It turns a profit. It keeps people like me in business. Like I said, I don't really care.It doesn't affect my monkey troop at the moment, and will not for some time to come, if ever.Turn it to glass and set up a factory for all I care. They are nobody to me. Death to the Middle East. That will solve the problem quite nicely. :biggrin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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