Israel's actions

[Gligamesh]

Two op-ed pices I read yesterday that may appeal to posters here.

 

http://sfchronicle.us/cgi-bin/article.cgi?.../EDOS15ABL8.DTL

 

http://sfchronicle.us/cgi-bin/article.cgi?.../EDNV15AQDQ.DTL

 

Both overly rosy, I'm afraid. Interesting, nonetheless.

[Ethre]

Note: First part is in response to Michlo's initial post. Then there are smaller comments afterwards.

 

You shouldn't judge Muslim's as a group because of the extremists. It would be better to judge the smaller groups within Islam based on their views. There is quite a wide range of interpretation on the Koran.

 

Not exactly reparations for the Holocaust. There were plans prior to the Holocaust to establish Israel.

Germany did loose a good deal of land after WW2, look at East Prussia. That used to be German, now you are hard pressed to find many. There were other cases too - some with mass murder, some just with expulsion. Quite a lot of "clean up" and punishment went on. I think there was even talk as recently as the late 90s of expulsions from Polland of ethnic Germans. I'll see if I can find that.

 

Other religions do have their own states - you just don't think of it. Most of Scandinavia is officially Lutheran/Protestant. Majority of the middle easy is Muslim (legally and culturally). You can find more.

By Gypsies I assume you mean Roma - they're an ethnic group but I don't know of much that can be claimed as a "Homeland". Gays are another issue entirely.

 

But again, there were earlier plans. You can also look back and say that the land was originally Jewish and there were evictions during the spread of Islam. Or later. That section of land has hundreds of thousands of different claims to it. Its hard to say who really owns/deserves it. Is it right to kick out Israeli's who are living there now? Its was British territory at the time, so wasn't it their right to do with as they pleased?

 

But at this point, it doesn't seem so much about the land as it does the conflict. Hamas is dedicated to killing Jews and Isreal. They are the ones who broke the cease fire (and previous ones).

Israel also spent the last ~10 years giving up land and settlements, only to have continued attacks. I think ~7000 rockets have been launched at Israeli civilian targets since 2001?

 

Its ugly on both sides (there is plenty of evidence to indicate that Israel has tried to minimize civilian casualties, but people still die. The problem of an enemy who hides behind civilians), but you can't just blame Israel.

 

I'm sick and tired of this whole mess over there but even though I'm no lover of Muslims thanks to all their extremists, I'm disgusted by Israel's actions. As far as I'm concerned they should never have been given land which already had people in it.

 

I understand it was reparations for the holocaust but then why didn't Germany set aside land for them or somewhere that didn't already have people in place such as parts of Australia?

 

Furthermore, you don't see the other religions having their own state and again, if it was reparations for the holocaust what about all the other groups which suffered such as the gypsies and gays? Where are their states?

 

I'm so upset that this is how our new year of change is starting out, especially since we see that idiot Bush supporting Israel and of course, despite all of our problems here we're still giving them a TON Of money each month.

 

Gaaaahhh. I say the world should leave them both to sort themselves out, as cold as that may sound but Israel should stop claiming more and more land from people who were there before them.

 

 

 

Smaller comments:

Because there really weren't people living there. It was a wasteland. The Israelis came in, built infrastructure and irrigation systems, made it quasi-livable, and all of a sudden Muslims start flooding in crying about "their" land.

 

Nuh uh. Not a wasteland prior. But development did come, yes.

 

We were still here before you were though.

It's an illegal occupation and they couldn't hold their own without us to run and hide behind.

But I guess in this game, whoever deals dirtiest wins.

 

Were they? You go back and things get really murky. You could also say the terrorist groups fight the dirtiest . . .

 

judaism is by description a waring religion in sharp opposition to islam (which only fared war in self defence) - they are real fanatics who even kill their own to get their way (moses gets down the hill and slaughters half his people)... resemblance to the holocoust? i dunno...

(religion is a social tool afterall... a nasty one indeed)

 

I'd strongly suggest you read the Koran, the hadith, essays by some of the ummahs, the Torah, and the rest of the Tanakh. It could help give you a bit of a deeper understanding of both Judaism and Islam.

While you are it, read up a bit on Christianity, Hinduism, Taosim (not in the strict sense religious), etc.

 

hitlers war effort was payed for by some rich and famous jews

 

Financing from some Jews? Yes. Did they necessarily support Hitler? I'm going to guess not.

 

Have any of you even looked at how this land has changed over the years since this colossal mistake was made?

 

Those years also roughly correspond to the times Israel has been attacked . . .

 

Living under Israeli occupation is miserable. It's no wonder hardliners like Hamas would keep on fighting despite peace talks and cease fire.

 

I would imagine that living surrounded by governments and thousands of people who want to wipe you off the face of the earth isn't very nice either.

 

Neither side is willing to forgive the others for the wrongs they have BOTH done to each other.

Both seek revenge.

There will be no end as both sides see the other as the instigator and the criminal, and themselves as the valiant defenders.

I don't think there will be a resolution for many... many years.

 

Agreed.

[jaysus]

@ethres post

 

israel as reparation for the holocoust...

true there were plans prior to ww2... as i mentioned earlier... but the holocoust was the thing that made em get it in the end... (plans proposed by lord rothshild, hitler financed by lord rothshild, israel given to lord rothshild as his personell toy... strange is it?)

 

religious states

these states you mention are not bound to these religions, their law is not centered around religion, neither are you automaticly member of that country just cause youre of the same religion... if youre a jew youre an israeli by law and can move there anytime...

also these countries have a constitution, israel doesnt...

 

that land wasnt jewish to begin with... there were people living for ages since one of the first migrations from africa

 

hamas is not dedicated to kill jews and israel... its dedicated to free palestine... might look similiar but its different... hamas wouldnt care if theyd all live in ohio...

btw its absolutely untrue if you say israel is giving back land since 10 yrs... its not... even now whilst you see em leaving settlements in tv they are building new ones, destroying palestinian homes and conquering territories, taking water supplies and strategic positions on hilltops...

 

ugly on booth sides? maybe one dead israeli every 3 month equals a systematic genocide? i dunno if thats a fair deal lol...

 

as to religios readings... yeah you could go into detail about every sect there is and prolly find stuff that contradicts my statement but the basic general books state what i said... muhammed defends his people whilst moses kills em...

 

about developement...

show me a country which didnt develope in the last 60 yrs... palestine actually didnt develope that much... israel did indeed... no wonder with all the bucks they got fed into their arses from everyone be it to gain forgiveness or to gain a strategic alliance...

 

dirty fighting...

i have yet to see a palestine fighter using a sniper rifle to schoot school children and demoralize his enemies... they might use suicide fighters but honestly thats much more honorable than bloody sniping innocent civilians

 

financing germanies war effort

they didnt support hitler? lol... hitler was germany... if you give the nazi german gov money you support them... and if you do it knowing millions of people will be slaughtered with that money youre a jerk...

surprisingly the same people who financed him were also the ones that proclaimed israel as a state

 

attacks on israel

there was exactly 1 attack on israel (and it wasnt even recognized as a country by anyone back then)... the counter offensive of egypt during the 70ties doesnt count as they just took back sinai (quite impressive btw how they did it... with water cannons LMFAO... had a chat with a veteran frontline medic)... how many acts of war and attacks on other souvereign nations did israel start? dozens all throughout the area...

 

living surrounded by enemies

well would you move to a place where noone wants you? well if you had the intention of killing everyone else ok but not if you were a peaceful being...

 

btw that stretch of land wasnt english at the time... it was (as by treaty) arab tribesman country (lawrence of arabia anyone?)

its really nice how they leeched the population of the area to support them in their war crap and then sold em off

[Michlo]

@Ethre,

 

Jaysus said it better than I could have.

 

I will add, however, that I have no intention of reading these "religious" books. I don't need to learn about a religion to know that people shouldn't be killing each other, PERIOD. Besides, since I'm agnostic that really wouldn't help my point of view. I'll not stray any further into the forbidden topic, though.

[macmert]

"But again, there were earlier plans. You can also look back and say that the land was originally Jewish and there were evictions during the spread of Islam. Or later. That section of land has hundreds of thousands of different claims to it. Its hard to say who really owns/deserves it. Is it right to kick out Israeli's who are living there now? Its was British territory at the time, so wasn't it their right to do with as they pleased?"

 

 

And how did the English get there??? :D I presume they were not touring in middle east and they found a deserted land and claimed it their own... Nope they got there during WW1, they were after some land in middle east because they wanted to secure a path to their colony India... But the arabs were there during WW2, WW1, heck they were there even at the times of the crusades :D and probably way before that the cavemen were there, so do we need to find a descendant of cavemen to determine the future of the land? :D And why the jews were put there? Because noone wants them, think about it, why hitler burned them, why Spanish banished them, because the jews tend to dominate the economy of any country they live in... and people dont like that... People dont like when the economic system runs by a single hand... That is why they are there now...

 

A few days ago Israel blew up a UN warehouse, the food and health equipment there burned down... this has turned into something terrible, this is not war or retaliation or self defence, this is terror... locking up women and children in houses and launch rockets on them? Even hitting UN now? After the warehouse hit, Don kee bong or that retard secretary general "harshly protested" Israel for the event, the Israel government apologized and told the hit was "unfortunate". The power of UN, be careful ladies and gentlemen, if you do something wrong, like invading a country or mass murdering, UN can protest you, and harshly protest you, you may have your heart broken... :P

[Gligamesh]

"But again, there were earlier plans. You can also look back and say that the land was originally Jewish and there were evictions during the spread of Islam. Or later. That section of land has hundreds of thousands of different claims to it. Its hard to say who really owns/deserves it. Is it right to kick out Israeli's who are living there now? Its was British territory at the time, so wasn't it their right to do with as they pleased?"

 

 

And how did the English get there??? :D I presume they were not touring in middle east and they found a deserted land and claimed it their own... Nope they got there during WW1, they were after some land in middle east because they wanted to secure a path to their colony India... But the arabs were there during WW2, WW1, heck they were there even at the times of the crusades :D and probably way before that the cavemen were there, so do we need to find a descendant of cavemen to determine the future of the land? :D And why the jews were put there? Because noone wants them, think about it, why hitler burned them, why Spanish banished them, because the jews tend to dominate the economy of any country they live in... and people dont like that... People dont like when the economic system runs by a single hand... That is why they are there now...

 

A few days ago Israel blew up a UN warehouse, the food and health equipment there burned down... this has turned into something terrible, this is not war or retaliation or self defence, this is terror... locking up women and children in houses and launch rockets on them? Even hitting UN now? After the warehouse hit, Don kee bong or that retard secretary general "harshly protested" Israel for the event, the Israel government apologized and told the hit was "unfortunate". The power of UN, be careful ladies and gentlemen, if you do something wrong, like invading a country or mass murdering, UN can protest you, and harshly protest you, you may have your heart broken... :P

Wait... so... Jews have to be granted land on which to live... Supported heavily by sponser nations... Yet somehow they control the world economy?

Uh...

Right.

 

How does Israel lock women and children in houses?

Please explain that one?

I know Hamas takes over houses and keeps the inhabitants there through coercion, force, and fear. When a Hamas operative is nuetralized, the civvies go with him. A common tactic throught the organization.

 

Even the smartest smart bombs are directed by stupid humans, so yes, UN shelling is unfortunate, but an accident all the same.

[Callighan]

Living under Israeli occupation is miserable. It's no wonder hardliners like Hamas would keep on fighting despite peace talks and cease fire.

I would imagine that living surrounded by governments and thousands of people who want to wipe you off the face of the earth isn't very nice either.

..which didn't have ideas about wiping them off before the manifestation of zionism in the 1920s/1930s.

Philistines and orthodox Jews in the area now known as Israel and Palestine lived in relative harmony before zionism came into the picture.

 

Wait... so... Jews have to be granted land on which to live... Supported heavily by sponser nations... Yet somehow they control the world economy?

There's the Rothschild-controlled central bankers. They played a hand in several financial crises throughout the last century and profited from them. From this stems the image of control.

 

This is a chicken or egg problem that does not have a real solution. Israelis will cite Hamas and other attacks on Israel to justify the attack on Gaza, and Palestinians will cite the illegal occupation of Palestinian land as well as harsh Israeli rule as a reason to fight. Which of the root causes come first? That's a badminton game right there.

 

Then why debate on something that's happening miles and miles away and has no real effect on your everyday life?

I'd like to think that we engage in debate so that we could divulge information and opinions on the matter to form a deeper understanding of the issue. And perhaps do something about it. But if we're not going to do anything about this, just take the information and opinions out of this debate and be a more informed, plus hopefully wiser person.

[macmert]

I didnt say world economy, What I mean is they become an economic force in the country they reside... It is known that the jewish lobby is one of the powerful lobbies in US senate... I believe being sponsored by major governments is a good thing since you can justify your residence in a land, since if you have no land to live :) very much like the Kurd problem in middle east, they didnt have any country of their own, but with backing of the US, now they rule the northern Iraq... So it is a political advantage to have a major international player backing you...

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,476664,00.html

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/15/i...r_n_158078.html

 

http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news.php?newsid=OTE4MDM1OTY3

 

I read them before in www.milliyet.com that is my countries national paper, I did a little research and found the links above...

[Gligamesh]

Living under Israeli occupation is miserable. It's no wonder hardliners like Hamas would keep on fighting despite peace talks and cease fire.

I would imagine that living surrounded by governments and thousands of people who want to wipe you off the face of the earth isn't very nice either.

..which didn't have ideas about wiping them off before the manifestation of zionism in the 1920s/1930s.

Philistines and orthodox Jews in the area now known as Israel and Palestine lived in relative harmony before zionism came into the picture.

With hardline Zionist referring to nonjews as cattle, I've never been partial to them.

There's the Rothschild-controlled central bankers. They played a hand in several financial crises throughout the last century and profited from them. From this stems the image of control.

And a convenient scapegoat. There's an easy way to avoid these things... Only buy what you can afford. ;)

This is a chicken or egg problem that does not have a real solution. Israelis will cite Hamas and other attacks on Israel to justify the attack on Gaza, and Palestinians will cite the illegal occupation of Palestinian land as well as harsh Israeli rule as a reason to fight. Which of the root causes come first? That's a badminton game right there.

Too true.

Then why debate on something that's happening miles and miles away and has no real effect on your everyday life?

I'd like to think that we engage in debate so that we could divulge information and opinions on the matter to form a deeper understanding of the issue. And perhaps do something about it. But if we're not going to do anything about this, just take the information and opinions out of this debate and be a more informed, plus hopefully wiser person.

I dunno about informed or wiser. I just felt the need to play devil's advocate. Can't say I'm fond of either, personally.

I'm really not too fond of Israel roilin' the waters with quite a few of my buddies still in Afghanistan, Kuwait, and Iraq.

So it does have the potential to effect them. It's just not imminent at the moment. The ripple is there, but it's not yet a wave. I'm just keepin' watch on how things play out, really and runnin' my idiot mouth because I've got nothing better to do in the wee hours.

 

macmert...

Once again. Smart bombs are guided by stupid humans.

It could have been an accident.

Even if it were deliberate (which I doubt, though it is not outside the realm of possiblity, and as such, must be taken into account) it can't be said to be officially sanctioned by Olmert's crew.

Give military kids with a grudge some hardware, and they're bound to do things you never intended them to do with it. And blacken your eye with their idiocy, cruelty, and short sightedness.

Maybe a unit loyal to Uncle Benji was persuaded to be overly prejudicial in their prosecution?

Maybe Hamas units in Israeli uniforms herded their comrades into a building that was a known target?

Who knows? We may never know.

War is hell.

[macmert]

@Gilgamesh

 

Well I am telling you what the official papers or websites say... I dont know who is behind it, as you say it can be anyone, hell even I may be involved in this, since anything is possible... Government backed assassinations are not unheard of, even 9/11 may be government sponsored... But it happened, I dont really care who is behind it, it needs to stop...

 

As for the UN warehouse hit, it can be anything but I think that hit might be deliberate, since Israel doesnt want UN in the area in the first place... Since while firing on innocents, why not hit a warehouse full of food and medical supplies...