Israel's actions

[Michlo]

"The U.N. compound, made up of workshops and warehouses as well as offices, was struck about a half-dozen times over a roughly two-hour period while more than 700 civilians were sheltering there, said John Ging, head of Gaza operations for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency."

 

 

So it was accidental for two hours? Umm, right. I'm absolutely disgusted at the Israelis now.

 

Oh, I meant to mention it earlier when someone was talking about how anybody who is Jewish has a "right" to settle in Israel - did you know that they've taken in tons of immigrants who just have to convert to Judaeism to live there? Just do that math here. This isn't a never-ending vortex or something, it is a piece of land. If they add more and more people, even people who nobody would have calculated in before then where do they go and where does the extra space come from that they'll now be taking up?

 

So again, there is no other religious comparison here. No other religion has an area of land that people inherently have a "right" to move simply because they are Jewish or will convert. I'm certainly not saying that any other religion SHOULD have either, NONE should have in my opinion but what can be done about it at this stage, I don't know. The only end I foresee is the one which will come about when all of the Palestinians are driven out.

 

 

Edit - Read this and / or this and tell me how their actions can possibly be defend / justified, whatever you want to call it now (and that includes our self described devil's advocate).

[jaysus]

white phsosphor

was also used by the US during the falludja offensive... resulting in the same twisted bloodbath... its great stuff btw... burns on contacts with water... every living being is made of that... so youll find skeletons in still intacts clothes... thats a form of death you cant wish your worst enemy i guess... slowly burning from the inside with no way to find shelter...

did anyone ever sue the US for war crimes? no... its a farce if you ask me... put some serbians in jail for warcrimes like attacking a strategic port city during a war but let those craszy bastards runf ree who deliberately destroy a whole city with no strategic worth at all after the end of the war...

 

and the body counts say enough if you ask me... over 1000 people dead... 500 of them kids... 3000 more injured which mean limbs gone, total psychic trauma or shell shock, 3000 people the community has to care for in the future and thus limiting their productivity...

and how many israeli died? 13 soldiers... fighters who know they could die since they engage in battle... well if you can call a genocide a battle that is...

 

so where is the self proclaimed hero of the world america now? shouldnt you help that stretch of land too? like you "helped" (yaya im joking lol) the afghani or the iraqi? just shows again how screwed our governments are and how corrupt, how disgusting.... simply how evil! EVIL!

its as simple as that... sounds childish but its sadly the god damn truth...

 

so what we need now are 3000 soldiers well trained and armed including stingers or equal to secure the gaza borders towards israel...

approx. 10 fighter jets to disable israeli airports and maybe 5 more to disable their harbours and ports aswell as their seaborn battleships

somin like 30 300mm arties to support the border guard and some gunships to give necessary fire support

a quick strike on their nuclear power facilities would be help aswell... none of these operations would cost many civilian lives but put an end to the fighting...

so is the UN able to supply that force or do so called terrorists and rough states need to step in?

 

and whilst they are at it they could confiscate any rothshild property as it was accumulated only by crimes of all sorts... would help to prevent further wars on the planet and could be used to rebuild palestine...

the israeli civilians will just have to live with arab neighbours then but i guess thats not a problem for them anyway only for some fanatical retards...

[Gligamesh]

Willy Pete is a tool like any other tool in an arsenal.

I know from personal experience that burning isn't painful. It's surviving and the healing after the burning that hurts like hell. So anyone dying from it isn't dying in unbearable pain anyway. Very few people die with any sensation of pain. Most scream out of terror, not pain. It's very disorienting not being able to will your body to do something which is normally an easy task.

Nerve agents and biological agents can bring about death in a very slow and painful manner which is one of the contributing factors as to why they're banned.

That, and their utter effectiveness. Like spraying Raid on ants.

Anyway, enough of that. I'm not defending any particular weapon, or slamming it. Just giving a perspective from personal experience.

 

 

Hamas has as it's stated goal the destruction of Israel. It seeks to wipe Israel (and by extention, Israelis) off the map.

Ask yourself. Is it justified in crying foul when Israel flips their rhetoric on it's head and gives them a first hand look at the reality of the hate they spew so casually?

Israel SHOULD tone down their operations. It would be a step up w/regards to their media image. Of course, it SHOULD rain hundred dollar bills...

[Ethre]

You're getting into major conspiracy theories there (or in your case "jewspiracies", since all yours seem to blame Jews).

 

You mean law of return? Its just about the same as other "Right of Return" or "Repatriation Laws". When you consider that Jews are often considered their own ethnic group, you'll find the laws just about identical in purpose.

 

I'm not saying the land was Jewish originally, but its hard to say the Palestinians have any more right than the Jews do.

 

Hamas is dedicated to placing "the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine" - what do you think happens to any non-Muslims that are there? The point is that Hamas does not tolerate them, period. Some settlements are being added, but its not a move by the Israeli govt - they were dismantling and forcibly evicting settlers. Of course, I'm sorry to see that you're taking up conspiracy theories so you're probably not going to believe any of that . . .

 

Yeah its ugly on both sides. People die. Just because some people dieing are Israeli or Jewish doesn't make their deaths any less important. Palestinian either - but if more of them die, it doesn't make their deaths any more important.

 

... muhammed defends his people whilst moses kills em...

Right . . . I'm sorry to say that this comes across as very naive and simpleminded. You're doing the same thing that is often used to criticism Islam - taking verses out of context.

 

i have yet to see a palestine fighter using a sniper rifle to schoot school children and demoralize his enemies... they might use suicide fighters but honestly thats much more honorable than bloody sniping innocent civilians

 

Please tell me you didn't mean to write that. Sniping children isn't good, but neither is trying to blow up civilians. If you want to talk about honorable suicide fighters - talk about the Japanese kamikaze attacks. The attacks on Israel though? Definitely not. Very, very few are aimed at military targets. The heavy majority attack innocent civilians (which includes both Israeli Arabs, and Israeli Jews). And how is launching rockets at Israeli schools honorable?

 

They attacked to prevent Israel from being recognized (which in of itself is sort of a defacto recognition). And the war in 73 involved much more than water cannons. You're also ignoring the almost continuous attacks by non-governmental organizations.

(though the water cannons were creative . . . )

 

Plenty of people live where they're not wanted by others . . . (blacks in the American south (pre-civil rights at least), Kurds in Turkey, I can make a very long list). You could also ask that same question about Palestinians. They're not exactly wanted by Israel . . .

 

True, (though Lawerence of Arabia was WWI), but it was a British Mandate with the purpose of transferring sovereignty. One of the points of the British Mandate was the establishment of a Jewish state. So they controlled it and were supposed to divide it up . ..

 

israel as reparation for the holocoust...

true there were plans prior to ww2... as i mentioned earlier... but the holocoust was the thing that made em get it in the end... (plans proposed by lord rothshild, hitler financed by lord rothshild, israel given to lord rothshild as his personell toy... strange is it?)

 

religious states

these states you mention are not bound to these religions, their law is not centered around religion, neither are you automaticly member of that country just cause youre of the same religion... if youre a jew youre an israeli by law and can move there anytime...

also these countries have a constitution, israel doesnt...

 

that land wasnt jewish to begin with... there were people living for ages since one of the first migrations from africa

 

hamas is not dedicated to kill jews and israel... its dedicated to free palestine... might look similiar but its different... hamas wouldnt care if theyd all live in ohio...btw its absolutely untrue if you say israel is giving back land since 10 yrs... its not... even now whilst you see em leaving settlements in tv they are building new ones, destroying palestinian homes and conquering territories, taking water supplies and strategic positions on hilltops...

 

ugly on booth sides? maybe one dead israeli every 3 month equals a systematic genocide? i dunno if thats a fair deal lol...

 

as to religios readings... yeah you could go into detail about every sect there is and prolly find stuff that contradicts my statement but the basic general books state what i said... muhammed defends his people whilst moses kills em...

 

about developement...

show me a country which didnt develope in the last 60 yrs... palestine actually didnt develope that much... israel did indeed... no wonder with all the bucks they got fed into their arses from everyone be it to gain forgiveness or to gain a strategic alliance...

 

dirty fighting...

i have yet to see a palestine fighter using a sniper rifle to schoot school children and demoralize his enemies... they might use suicide fighters but honestly thats much more honorable than bloody sniping innocent civilians

 

financing germanies war effort

they didnt support hitler? lol... hitler was germany... if you give the nazi german gov money you support them... and if you do it knowing millions of people will be slaughtered with that money youre a jerk...

surprisingly the same people who financed him were also the ones that proclaimed israel as a state

 

attacks on israel

there was exactly 1 attack on israel (and it wasnt even recognized as a country by anyone back then)... the counter offensive of egypt during the 70ties doesnt count as they just took back sinai (quite impressive btw how they did it... with water cannons LMFAO... had a chat with a veteran frontline medic)... how many acts of war and attacks on other souvereign nations did israel start? dozens all throughout the area...

 

living surrounded by enemies

well would you move to a place where noone wants you? well if you had the intention of killing everyone else ok but not if you were a peaceful being...

 

btw that stretch of land wasnt english at the time... it was (as by treaty) arab tribesman country (lawrence of arabia anyone?)

its really nice how they leeched the population of the area to support them in their war crap and then sold em off

 

I don't need to learn about a religion to know that people shouldn't be killing each other, PERIOD. Besides, since I'm agnostic that really wouldn't help my point of view. I'll not stray any further into the forbidden topic, though.

 

I'm not saying you need to believe it or agree in any way, but it does help understand some of the reasons behind some people's views (like the protests in Europe after the cartoons . . . ).

 

none of these operations would cost many civilian lives but put an end to the fighting...

so is the UN able to supply that force or do so called terrorists and rough states need to step in?

 

Would it really? You have to think about stopping the Palestinian attacks too.

 

(and that includes our self described devil's advocate).

:thanks: and loving every minute of it mate.

With the exception of some of Jaysus' conspiracy theories. I'm sorry there, while I can respect and understand many views - when you get too far into the conspiracy side it gets ridiculous.

 

But I can't really argue for white phosphorous as a weapon against civilians. That gets into war crimes areas (though its not necessarily considered an illegal weapon), and even I have my limits on my devil's advocateness (that a word?). But I can say that it doesn't exactly justify the attacks against Israel (two wrongs don't make a right . . .). Israel may not be right in their attacks, but Hamas did break the terms of the agreement (Israel may not have followed through entirely either, but Hamas did continue permitting attacks).

 

Also - I think Hamas used it back at Israel too . . .

[jaysus]

conspiracy theory...

it would be one if id put in theories... but i clearly state facts which you can read in most history books aka rothshilds founding hitler, supporting the creation of israel and still profitting from it... what you make out of it is your descision...

 

regarding their property and me calling for the un to confiscate it... well check how they accumulated it and then ask yourself if false information leading to things like the 19twenties financial crisis aswell as the latest crisis or the sale out of britain (the famous waterloo fraud) to further private wealth were ok... i say its a crime and deserves punishment

let alone the reason to free us american politics and economy from their stranglehold through the FED and the international banking system which they established through war and crisis leading them to controle the dollar, the imf, wto and by now even the euro and thus all the governments bound by it which in turn lead to most of the artifical crisises we witnessed during the last centuries... of which only they profitted...

 

theyre afterall the only constant in all these events apart from death

 

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i agree that israelites have the same right to live there as the arabs do

but that doesnt include stealing the property of people who live there since generations

 

i also agree that its not ok for hamas to promote islam as the solution to it but thats their way and the majority of their people seem to support em since they got voted for to be where they are unlike for example the abbas gov...

and calling for the destruction of israel is prolly the only solution to it atm... either israel or palestine... as none of those in power is willing to agree on somin let alone to distribute the place fairly...

 

i also dont say its ok for israelis to die but its kinda out of proportion... i bet more people die in israel by car accidents than by rocket attacks unlike the palestinians which are facing extinction

 

as to the religious books

im not taking anything out of context...

muhammed wages a war to to stop the tribes in his area of killing each other and to defend his people

moses comes down from his hill and orders the killing of half his followers cause they think hes an idiot and rather have a fun party than praying all day long...

 

suicide attacks

all the most rescent attacks were targeted at military targets, and its still more honorable to face your enemy and sacrifice your own life for whatever reason than hiding in a fortified bunker and shooting people who cant fight back, same goes for air attacks and so on...

nevertheless i agree that targeting civilian mobs is not ok

 

the rockets hamas uses are sadly not as efficent as for example a cruise missle... they just dont have the money for that and the usual kassam is a plain dumb fire missle which goes anywhere... yet they never killed as many as one single air strike by an f16 fighter jet... they are used to ignite fear not to cause damage which really is tiny

 

water cannons were the thing that turned the tide afterall but ya they also used good ol guns... nevertheless it was a war to regain territories occupied by israel

 

as to people living where they are not wanted

kurds lived there since ages and didnt move in eventually... the tuks did... they come from somewhere in the eastern steppes of central asia

the blacks didnt come to america by free will but were forced to get there as slaves...

the palestinians also lived there before the mass migration of jews from around the world after ww2

thus you really cant compare these situations in such a manner

 

the creation of a jewish state during ww1 was never mentioned in any official mandate only in private letters between mr barfour and lord rothshild... the establishment of an arab nation on the other hand was official

 

white phosphor is prohibited by international law which is not recognized by the USofA, russia and china nor by israel but everyone else afaik

[Ethre]

Initial Post:

 

as to the religious books

im not taking anything out of context...

muhammed wages a war to to stop the tribes in his area of killing each other and to defend his people

moses comes down from his hill and orders the killing of half his followers cause they think hes an idiot and rather have a fun party than praying all day long.

 

First of all, Moses is accepted as a righteous prophet in Islam (I think he may even be the second most important one in the Koran after Mohammad?). Islam is also supposed to accept the Old testament (well, modified a bit) as holy, so any arguments about it there apply just about as equally to Islam as they do Judaism.

The point of the story of him "slaying the idolators" was that they had rejected their God (Apostasy). Its also condemned in some of the Hadith (they're supposed to be the sayings/actions of Muhammad), particularly Sahih Al Bukhari.

There are several parts of the Hadith that specifically state that apostasy is to be punished by death.

 

EDIT: Gah, we're in religious debate which is verboden. My apologies, but if you would like to continue this discussion, send me a PM so we don't break the forums rules.

 

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Completed Post (Due to time restraints earlier):

 

Perhaps you've seen something I haven't - but I have never seen any credible evidence to support that. They supported Israel yes, but I see little beyond that. I'd be happy to read anything you can produce however.

 

Same goes for your comments on financial domination (which, by the way, I have problems following - you make some jumps that I can't seem to follow).

 

If you will remember, there was a civil war of sorts after the elections - and Hamas didn't get a majority by any means. 44% for Hamas v 41% for Fatah, a difference which could quite possibly have gone the other way another day. You're also note that, while there has been an increase in support for Hamas recently, there hasn't been much action to back up the comments. It would seem that their support is more due to the impression that they are acting than actual support for them.

 

Even if some have target the military (meaning they would be more "war" than "terrorism"), they do not justify the attacks on civilians.

Of course, most of the suicide attacks on military targets have violated the rules of war (hiding w/in civilian groups, lack of identification, etc), which is not very honorable. If they're truly going to be honorable, they would drop all the hiding and pretenses to launch a direct attack. Yes, they'd die, but that would be honorable way of going.

 

True, they are intended to cause fear, but as you will notice it is still an indiscriminate attack. If you are shot at by someone, and they miss because they have an inaccurate weapon, they still shot at you.

 

Egypt had been preparing a massive attack on Israel, and lost - if you loose a war you can't just expect to be left the same as you were prior to the conflict. Egypt wanted a war, and they then proceeded to loose it. (I'm referring to the Six Days War, the Yom-Kippur war resulted in the reversal of the territory)

 

Jews lived in Palestine prior to the creation of Israel too. I also hadn't realized this previously, but apparently about 41% of Israeli Jews were evicted from Arab nations. Hmmm, are you going to argue that they should get back their homes/land/etc in those nations?

 

Here's the mandate, take a look at Article 2. Specifically about a Jewish State.

[macmert]

I dont think any more material or article or evidence needed to prove that isreal was "given" to jews, it is written in every political history book written... as for the financial domination, well it is written in history books too... :)

 

As for Islam and Mohammed, I will write down a single statement, islam accepts all prophets holy and accepts all holy books, but states that Islam is the last religion sent down and the only complete, perfect religion... (I dont say that I play by the book :D)

 

And a truce, something interesting for a change... Israel called truce and hamas agreed to it, calling a truce, but Hamas wants Israel out of Gaza, I dont know what will happen but this is surely a fragile peace, things will heat up again...

[Gligamesh]

I dont think any more material or article or evidence needed to prove that isreal was "given" to jews, it is written in every political history book written... as for the financial domination, well it is written in history books too... :)

 

As for Islam and Mohammed, I will write down a single statement, islam accepts all prophets holy and accepts all holy books, but states that Islam is the last religion sent down and the only complete, perfect religion... (I dont say that I play by the book :D)

 

And a truce, something interesting for a change... Israel called truce and hamas agreed to it, calling a truce, but Hamas wants Israel out of Gaza, I dont know what will happen but this is surely a fragile peace, things will heat up again...

 

I'm sure they will.

Israel only enacted the cease fire for calm during the U.S. presidential inauguration. They were still being hit by rockets after Hamas "agreed".

This is an opening, though I doubt it'll lead to anything good.

Edit: Wow, that sounds kinda conspiracy-theoryish... lol

[Ihoe]

Well I just had about enough of israel's actions.

both Hamas and Israel won't stop the bloody fighting for good. no one is right in this matter as well, so it can't be stoped without having both nations look at each other with hate. Israel won't stop attacking and hamas won't negotiate. but if we go back to the beginning, both of these nations are guilty for this mess... it has a long story. I cannot say the whole story here now can I?

[Callighan]

Right.

I can't help but ask:

Where did all the hate come from?