SHIVs for early game - unlocking the Foundry

[Amineri]

One thing that makes me sad is how the SHIV is underutilized and underappreciated, especially compared to the OG.

 

I feel like the principle issue is that it simply takes too long and too many resources to get the SHIVs into action, and by the time you do, your squads have more skills / better weapons, so SHIVs are mostly irrelevant by that point.

 

Specifically, the following have to be researched / built:

Weapon fragments or Alien materials researched -- 8 days

Experimental Warfare researched -- ~ 8 days assuming you got some more scientists

Foundry Facility built -- 10 days

Heavy Weapon Platform project researched -- 7 days

SHIV built -- 7 days

 

That adds up to 40 days along the optimal path ... assuming that you don't spend your resources on something else like weapons or armor !

 

To start addressing this, I've written a small custom mod (which can be installed via ToolBoks) that unlocks the Foundry at the beginning of the game. This unbalances a few things, since later foundry projects get opened up too soon, so I wrote a second mod that locks all Foundry projects besides SHIV project until after Experimental Warfare is researched.

 

((I'm not sure where to put the mod, as I feel it's too small to justify a full file entry table in the XCOM Nexus area -- is there a way to get it included in the ToolBoks distribution? ))

 

With this mod, SHIVs can be built by day 24, and on a separate path from the research tree -- it's only a tradeoff of resources spent (power, money, and base space).

 

I'm still pondering some other options for making SHIVs more interesting / relevant. Some ideas I'm looking into include :

 

1) Replace SHIV Suppression with Holo-targetting

2) Give SHIVs a Shredder Rocket

3) Give SHIVs some form of damage mitigation (a la the Heavy "Will to Survive" skill, but when not in cover)

Got this working. Have a mod that gives all tank-type units (SHIVs, Drones, Cyberdiscs, and Sectopods) damage reduction based on max HP. Basically 4-13 health gets 1 point, 14-23 gets 2 points, 24-33 gets 3 points, etc. I'm kind of debating whether this would be better based on max HP (constant reduction) or current HP (degrading armor). Either way is similar to implement. Maybe I'll post up both and see what people think.

 

4) Give the Alloy SHIV a smoke grenade to make its low-cover bonus more meaningful one time in the fight.

 

Anyone else have any thoughts or suggestions on this?

Edited March 11, 2013 by Amineri

[anUser]

The only case I might want some SHIVs is at the first terror mission when Chryssalids show up and I'm still playing with 4 units. Couldn't they be available right at the beggining, as useless as they are, and make the cool stuff come later with it's due research? Just an idea. And yeah, I'm no fan of SHIVS, if the entire class could be rewritten into a new weapon or soldier class I wouldn't mourn them :)

[Amineri]

I realized I can simply paste the custom mods I wrote for ToolBoks directly into the forums for those that want to incorporate them into their mods. Also, bokauk, feel free to put include any of these with your ToolBoks distribution.

 

Unfortunately, this change requires two files and two patches (as I understand the custom mod loader in ToolBoks). The first part unlocks the Foundry at the beginning of the game. The second changes the behavior of when Foundry upgrades are available.

 

************** start first file *************************

 

 

MOD_NAME=Unlock Starting Foundry

AUTHOR=amineri

UPK_FILE=XComStrategyGame.upk

DESCRIPTION=Makes Foundry available at start of game to be constructed at start of game

Version: 1.0

Works with XCOM Enemy Unknown version:

Patch 3 ( Tuesday, December 11, 2012 4:36 PM - Changelist: 347752 )

[FIND]

{ Default Foundry Facility Creation - DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE }

1B 61 04 00 00 00 00 00 00 2C 0B 2C 73 25 25 2C 14 26 2C 0A 1D Fd FF FF FF 26 24 0B 4A 24 69 16

[REPLACE]

{ Disables Experimental Warfare Requirement for Foundry Facility }

1B 61 04 00 00 00 00 00 00 2C 0B 2C 73 25 25 2C 14 26 2C 0A 1D Fd FF FF FF 26 24 00 4A 24 69 16

**********************end first file *******************

**********************start second file ***************

MOD_NAME=Fix Foundry Requirements

AUTHOR=amineri

UPK_FILE=XComStrategyGame.upk

DESCRIPTION=Fixes Foundry project requirements. Disables any Foundry research except SHIV until Experimental Warfare is researched.

Version: 1.0

Works with XCOM Enemy Unknown version:

Patch 3 ( Tuesday, December 11, 2012 4:36 PM - Changelist: 347752 )

[FIND]

{ Function Header Virtual Size Update - DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE }

DA 01 00 00 38 5F 00 00 3F 01 00 00 F7 00 00 00

{ Conditional that allows SHIV Suppression if SHIV project is done - DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE }

07 32 00 9A 00 DF 45 00 00 2C 10 16 04 19 1B 75 0B 00 00 00 00 00 00 16 0B 00 7C 2A 00 00 00 1B 65 14 00 00 00 00 00 00 26 16

{ Conditional that checks if Alien Grenades have even been owned - DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE }

07 6B 00 9A 00 DF 45 00 00 2C 02 16 07 6B 00 81 19 1B 23 27 00 00 00 00 00 00 16 0C 00 80 40 00 00 00 1B 29 0D 00 00 00 00 00 00 2C 58 16 16 04 28

{ Assignment of local variable for next conditionals -- won't be changed - DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE }

0F 00 DD 45 00 00 1B 35 0E 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 DF 45 00 00 4A 16

{ Conditional check to see that required items are possessed - DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE }

07 EF 00 9B 35 3C 1E 00 00 44 1E 00 00 00 00 00 DD 45 00 00 25 16 07 EF 00 9A 19 1B 23 27 00 00 00 00 00 00 16 26 00 7D 40 00 00 00 1B CC 0F 00 00 00 00 00 00 35 3C 1E 00 00 44 1E 00 00 00 00 00 DD 45 00 00 16 25 16 04 28

{ Conditional check to see that required Lab techs have been researched - DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE }

07 32 01 81 19 1B 8B 16 00 00 00 00 00 00 16 26 00 77 2C 00 00 00 1B BF 14 00 00 00 00 00 00 35 3B 1E 00 00 44 1E 00 00 00 00 00 DD 45 00 00 16 16 04 28

[REPLACE]

{ Function Header Virtual Size Update }

DA 01 00 00 38 5F 00 00 36 01 00 00 F7 00 00 00

{ Conditional rewritten to always allow basic SHIV research }

07 2E 00 9A 00 DF 45 00 00 2C 01 16 04 27 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B

{ Conditional rewritten do disallow any foundry project until Experimental Warfare researched }

07 63 00 81 19 1B 8B 16 00 00 00 00 00 00 16 26 00 77 2C 00 00 00 1B BF 14 00 00 00 00 00 00 2C 0B 16 16 04 28 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B 0B

{ Assignment of local variable for next conditionals -- unchanged }

0F 00 DD 45 00 00 1B 35 0E 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 DF 45 00 00 4A 16

{ Conditional jump address updated for earlier modifications }

07 E7 00 9B 35 3C 1E 00 00 44 1E 00 00 00 00 00 DD 45 00 00 25 16 07 E7 00 9A 19 1B 23 27 00 00 00 00 00 00 16 26 00 7D 40 00 00 00 1B CC 0F 00 00 00 00 00 00 35 3C 1E 00 00 44 1E 00 00 00 00 00 DD 45 00 00 16 25 16 04 28

{ Conditional jump address updated for earlier modifications }

07 2A 01 81 19 1B 8B 16 00 00 00 00 00 00 16 26 00 77 2C 00 00 00 1B BF 14 00 00 00 00 00 00 35 3B 1E 00 00 44 1E 00 00 00 00 00 DD 45 00 00 16 16 04 28

{ Fix later function jump offsets }

********************end second file ********************

[dubiousintent]

One thing that makes me sad is how the SHIV is underutilized and underappreciated, especially compared to the OG.

...

That adds up to 40 days along the optimal path ... assuming that you don't spend your resources on something else like weapons or armor !

Agreed, for exactly the reasons specified.

 

To start addressing this, I've written a small custom mod (which can be installed via ToolBoks) that unlocks the Foundry at the beginning of the game. This unbalances a few things, since later foundry projects get opened up too soon, so I wrote a second mod that locks all Foundry projects besides SHIV project until after Experimental Warfare is researched.

((I'm not sure where to put the mod, as I feel it's too small to justify a full file entry table in the XCOM Nexus area -- is there a way to get it included in the ToolBoks distribution? ))

Why not 1) attach them to a post here; and 2) send copies to Bokauk with permission to include them with ToolBoks? That's what graaa and I did with the Skill Perk Tree templates we developed. He was quite receptive to the idea, once the mods were shown to be stable. Edit: However, there is a patch in beta right now to fix the 'teleporting bug', so you might want to hold off on sending anything to ToolBoks until it has been updated after the patch release. But go ahead and post here to get some early adopter testing.

 

With this mod, SHIVs can be built by day 24, and on a separate path from the research tree -- it's only a tradeoff of resources spent (power, money, and base space).

I'm still pondering some other options for making SHIVs more interesting / relevant. Some ideas I'm looking into include :

1) Replace SHIV Suppression with Holo-targetting

2) Give SHIVs a Shredder Rocket

3) Give SHIVs some form of damage mitigation (a la the Heavy "Will to Survive" skill, but when not in cover)

Anyone else have any thoughts or suggestions on this?

While an SHIV was an 'advanced concept' in 1994, it's a proven, battle-tested concept (as a RPV) today. So it is perfectly justifiable to make the SHIV available from the start of the game with starting weaponry and abilities. Especially prior to construction of OTS and unlocking the ability to expand the squad size, it is a significant decision to replace a team member with an SHIV, much less to devote resources to construction of one. People are going to want to experiment with the idea, and the more 'standard options' available, the more likely they will experiment. I see them as standard starting equipment, like the interceptor aircraft. That is what modding is all about after all. Exploring possibilities. Without a mod, there is no choice. Let people decide if they want to include particular options in the mod on their own. Just document how to make the choices in the mod.

The Foundry projects should be reserved for 'implementing new technology developments', like laser and plasma versions. If something is already available to the troops, then the major appeal of an SHIV is the ability to bring a more powerful, heavier version along.

 

-Dubious-

Edited March 10, 2013 by dubiousintent

[Yzaxtol]

XComStrategyGame.XGItemTree.BuildItems

 

m_iCurrentCategory = 3;

BuildItem(102, 50, 14, 5, 1, 49);

BuildItem(103, 100, 25, 14, 10, 14, 1, 50);

BuildItem(104, 200, 30, 30, 14, 20, 5, 1, 51);

 

These are the SHIVS in the Item Tree.

 

BuildItem(102(SHIV ID), 50(Cash), 14(Time), 5(Engineers), 1(SHIV Foundry), 49(Image));

BuildItem(103(Alloy SHIV ID), 100(Cash), 25(Alloy), 14(Time), 10(Engineers), 14(Carapace Armor Tech), 1(SHIV Foundry), 50(Image));

BuildItem(104(Hover Shiv ID), 200(Cash), 30(Alloy), 30(Elerium), 14, 20(Engineers), 5(New Fighter Craft Tech), 1(SHIV Foundry), 51(Image));

 

I was tempted to remove the requirement for the starting SHIV so that it was available with the Medkit, but due to un-resolved balance issues with Continents I fixed it a different way. Hope this info helps someone.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Yzaxtol

[Amineri]

Thanks for this. I definitely wanted to change the alloy SHIV so that it would require Titan Armor and not Carapace.

 

This also opens up the possibility of granting ability to buy SHIVs immediately after the Foundry is built -- now if I can just figure out how to re-purpose the basic SHIV Foundry project slot into some other form of upgrade ...

[Yzaxtol]

Advanced SHIV Models researchable after Titan Armour? Edited March 11, 2013 by Yzaxtol

[Amineri]

Advanced SHIV Models researchable after Titan Armour?

 

I was thinking more along the lines of changing the requirement on Alloy SHIVs to need Titan Armor instead of Carapace.

 

For one, Alloy SHIVs are the exception in that there is no specific Foundry project for them. There is a SHIV project and a Hover SHIV project, but no alloy SHIV project. Both regular and Alloy SHIVs unlock with the SHIV project -- it's just that alloy SHIVs require that Carapace armor research be completed.

 

Practically, even starting being able to build a Foundry, by the time you (1) build the Foundry facility (2) research the SHIV Foundry project (3) build a SHIV, you've typically done / almost done with carapace armor. My thought is to push the Alloy SHIVs later into the game, which means balancing them against tougher enemes (Mutons with Plasma rifles, Heavy Floaters, etc).

 

In vanilla, it's pretty common to research carapace BEFORE SHIVs, which would mean that SHIVs and Alloy SHIVs would unlock at the same time. Not much point in having three SHIV variants if the first two get squished together time-wise, at least in my opinion :biggrin:

 

*********************************************

 

This discussion has opened up in my mind the possibility of allowing regular SHIVs to be built right away (no requirement beyond having a Foundry), and repurposing the existing SHIV project to serve as unlocking the Alloy SHIV (which works since it already does). The default SHIV is quite powerful against Sectoids, and even against Thin Men and Floaters, since it deals an average of 6 damage. That may need to be re-balanced if SHIVs are allowed in the first month or two.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Amineri

[johnnylump]

I'm working this into the next Long War version.

 

I lowered Shiv minigun damage to 5, mobility to 10, upped hit points to 12. Thoughts?

Edited March 15, 2013 by johnnylump

[Amineri]

I really wanted to lower their accuracy and give them the Holo-targetting perk / ability, to make them more of a "help xcom people" kind of tool.

 

In terms of damage I'd probably reduce minigun to 4, so that it is comparable to the ballistic Heavy weapon, especially if you can get holo-targetting turned on. Otherwise it's out the gate the same as an LPR or a laser rifle.

 

Mobility probably needs to stay high, because SHIVs can't take as direct routes as the soldiers -- can't go up/down small ledges or over light cover, nor burst through windows. The high speed also makes them work better in the scouting role. I guess it depends on what role they are supposed to fill. They can't be customized, so have to have a clear role built in. I tend to want to steer away from the heavy damage-dealing aspect, since Sniper, Heavy and Assault are just always going to be better. Or if they aren't, then something is probably out of whack ^_^.

 

I've also been poking around at the idea of making SHIVs automatically become "critically wounded" and then "stabilize". This would mean that a SHIV can technically no longer be destroyed, just very badly damaged (unless the mission is lost or aborted, of course). The repair times could of course be very high for a "critically damaged" SHIV, but it would allow for much higher build costs and build times, without people resorting to using rookies as sacrificial lambs because SHIVs are too hard to replace.

 

My $0.02