The New Kingdoms of Man

[positronics]

I wrote this a while ago on gamefaqs when I first completed the Civil War quests, and now that I'm pretty much done with every quest there is I wonder what you enlightened folk think of it, because I'm still excited about the possibility of it for the next title.

 

 

Note: This topic contains some Spoilers for those who haven't completed Skyrim.

I've been studying the history of the Mede Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion in order to make my decision on whether or not to side with the Imperials or Stormcloaks.

Now, I'm aware that Ulfric is listed as an uncooperative asset for the Thalmor. I'm also aware that he was at one point a willing conspirator with the Thalmor during the Markarth Incident. This makes Ulfric the ultimate cause of expanded Thalmor influence in the region, under the guise of cracking down on Talos worship and enforcing the Concordant.

These things are indicative of Ulfric's ego, of his desire for power, and are completely irrelevant to me. Ulfric's life is a flash in the pan of history.

We know the Thalmor used Ulfric to cause the civil war. We know they want it to continue, and don't want either side to emerge victorious. What I'm trying to determine is which situation would be worse for the Thalmor: an Imperial victory, or a Stormcloak victory?

It is clear that with the ascendancy of Alinor, and the growing rift between Men and Mer, the possibility of a united Tamrielic Empire is nearly impossible. Morrowind is in utter ruin and the Dark Elves are scattered, forced to live in other provinces amongst inhospitable humans. Black Marsh is battered and withdrawn, with ambiguous loyalties. The other new Betmer provinces are pro-Dominion, leaving the entire south under Thalmor influence.

The Mede Empire inherited the Oblivion Crisis and has been crumbling ever since. Should we be surprised? The legitimacy of the dynastic rule over all of Tamriel ended with Martin Septim, and what has come since has been Council squabblers and Colovian warlords. A warlord is basically a bandit with a better bloodline.

At the end of my long study, I came to this conclusion: The Mede Empire is living strategically in the Third Era.They have not accepted or adjusted to the Fourth Era's new world order. If the canon of TESV follows previous installments practice of "all quests happen", Tidus Mede II was taken by Sithis during the Skyrim Civil War, further weakening Cyrodiil's waning power. Who will take over the throne next? Another Count who's claim to fame is being the mayor of Chorrol?

In a Stormcloak victory, Skyrim successfully rebels. it is only logical High Rock - now geographically isolated from the Empire - would follow next. Bretons are notoriously political creatures. They would see the writing on the wall.

Would this spell the end of the Empire? Yes and no.

A lot of posters argue that a Stormcloak victory would spell doom for humans, citing the divide and conquer strategy employed by the Thalmor. A Stormcloak victory would allow the races of Man to face the bitter reality that Hammerfell already knows: the Thalmor want to enslave all Mankind.

If the races of Men are to avoid subjugation, they need a new power base. Cyrodiil is too close to the Dominion and as the Great War proved, too exposed to their power. Divine reasons for the Imperial City as the mortal epicenter are over - the Dragonfires were extinguished centuries ago. Furthermore, Cyrodiil will likely be the first and most hotly contested region during the Second Great War. High Rock or Skyrim would be much better suited for a capital, as both are mountainous and far removed from the Dominion.

The human-dominated provinces need to get real and save themselves, so as a Breton I will be supporting the Stormcloaks.

***

A few notes on what I posted then: For some reason I thought that Black Marsh had been hit hard by some natural or divine disaster soon after the 4E, but apparently they did well with the An-Xileel and took over much of southern Morrowind, including a sack of Mournhold.

Also, its become more clear that the Dark Elves and the Nords have a decent chance of good relations, since its come to light that the Nords gave Solstheim to the Dunmer during the Red Mountain Crisis. This, in my opinion, makes a North vs. South conflict all the more likely, with the Kingdoms at war with the Aldmeri Dominion and Morrowind officially neutral but lending supplies or other aid to the Kingdoms. The South would be comprised of the Dominion and their puppet states, probably including Black Marsh.

Cyrodiil will once again be ground zero in any such conflict, and so is no place for the political authority to be centered. Besides, the Imperials are living in a Third Era fantasy land where they are still policing a willing world. It makes a lot more sense to align rule in the mountainous, removed north. High Rock is a good place to have the binding focused, it being very mountainous, far out of the Dominion's reach, and in the geographic center of a Hammerfell-High Rock-Skyrim alliance. Also, the Direnni Tower is impregnable, having been made out of pure god-metal, and as mentioned in the Charwich-Koniinge Letters, walled towns are the norm in High Rock, even small Breton villages are fortified with a strong wall.

It'd be a mess if the Dominion ever tried to invade a unified North.

Edited March 15, 2013 by positronics

[Roviakin71]

 

I wrote this a while ago on gamefaqs when I first completed the Civil War quests, and now that I'm pretty much done with every quest there is I wonder what you enlightened folk think of it, because I'm still excited about the possibility of it for the next title.

 

 

Note: This topic contains some Spoilers for those who haven't completed Skyrim.

I've been studying the history of the Mede Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion in order to make my decision on whether or not to side with the Imperials or Stormcloaks.

Now, I'm aware that Ulfric is listed as an uncooperative asset for the Thalmor. I'm also aware that he was at one point a willing conspirator with the Thalmor during the Markarth Incident. This makes Ulfric the ultimate cause of expanded Thalmor influence in the region, under the guise of cracking down on Talos worship and enforcing the Concordant.

These things are indicative of Ulfric's ego, of his desire for power, and are completely irrelevant to me. Ulfric's life is a flash in the pan of history.

We know the Thalmor used Ulfric to cause the civil war. We know they want it to continue, and don't want either side to emerge victorious. What I'm trying to determine is which situation would be worse for the Thalmor: an Imperial victory, or a Stormcloak victory?

It is clear that with the ascendancy of Alinor, and the growing rift between Men and Mer, the possibility of a united Tamrielic Empire is nearly impossible. Morrowind is in utter ruin and the Dark Elves are scattered, forced to live in other provinces amongst inhospitable humans. Black Marsh is battered and withdrawn, with ambiguous loyalties. The other new Betmer provinces are pro-Dominion, leaving the entire south under Thalmor influence.

The Mede Empire inherited the Oblivion Crisis and has been crumbling ever since. Should we be surprised? The legitimacy of the dynastic rule over all of Tamriel ended with Martin Septim, and what has come since has been Council squabblers and Colovian warlords. A warlord is basically a bandit with a better bloodline.

At the end of my long study, I came to this conclusion: The Mede Empire is living strategically in the Third Era.They have not accepted or adjusted to the Fourth Era's new world order. If the canon of TESV follows previous installments practice of "all quests happen", Tidus Mede II was taken by Sithis during the Skyrim Civil War, further weakening Cyrodiil's waning power. Who will take over the throne next? Another Count who's claim to fame is being the mayor of Chorrol?

In a Stormcloak victory, Skyrim successfully rebels. it is only logical High Rock - now geographically isolated from the Empire - would follow next. Bretons are notoriously political creatures. They would see the writing on the wall.

Would this spell the end of the Empire? Yes and no.

A lot of posters argue that a Stormcloak victory would spell doom for humans, citing the divide and conquer strategy employed by the Thalmor. A Stormcloak victory would allow the races of Man to face the bitter reality that Hammerfell already knows: the Thalmor want to enslave all Mankind.

If the races of Men are to avoid subjugation, they need a new power base. Cyrodiil is too close to the Dominion and as the Great War proved, too exposed to their power. Divine reasons for the Imperial City as the mortal epicenter are over - the Dragonfires were extinguished centuries ago. Furthermore, Cyrodiil will likely be the first and most hotly contested region during the Second Great War. High Rock or Skyrim would be much better suited for a capital, as both are mountainous and far removed from the Dominion.

The human-dominated provinces need to get real and save themselves, so as a Breton I will be supporting the Stormcloaks.

***

A few notes on what I posted then: For some reason I thought that Black Marsh had been hit hard by some natural or divine disaster soon after the 4E, but apparently they did well with the An-Xileel and took over much of southern Morrowind, including a sack of Mournhold.

Also, its become more clear that the Dark Elves and the Nords have a decent chance of good relations, since its come to light that the Nords gave Solstheim to the Dunmer during the Red Mountain Crisis. This, in my opinion, makes a North vs. South conflict all the more likely, with the Kingdoms at war with the Aldmeri Dominion and Morrowind officially neutral but lending supplies or other aid to the Kingdoms. The South would be comprised of the Dominion and their puppet states, probably including Black Marsh.

Cyrodiil will once again be ground zero in any such conflict, and so is no place for the political authority to be centered. Besides, the Imperials are living in a Third Era fantasy land where they are still policing a willing world. It makes a lot more sense to align rule in the mountainous, removed north. High Rock is a good place to have the binding focused, it being very mountainous, far out of the Dominion's reach, and in the geographic center of a Hammerfell-High Rock-Skyrim alliance. Also, the Direnni Tower is impregnable, having been made out of pure god-metal, and as mentioned in the Charwich-Koniinge Letters, walled towns are the norm in High Rock, even small Breton villages are fortified with a strong wall.

It'd be a mess if the Dominion ever tried to invade a unified North.

I think the thalmor would take their time sowing discord amongst the human kingdoms if the Empire fully collapsed (which would likely come from a Stormcloak victory in the civil war) as the absence of the bureaucracy that was needed to keep potential divisionism to a manageable level, would make any long term alliance very difficult to maintain. I still say a Dovahkiin who sided with the Empire, would have a very good chance of becoming Emperor would be the best defence against the Thalmor, depending on their decisions would have support from some of the finest warriors, a band of powerful mages, a guild of master thieves (I think they would be very good at espionage) and a cult of assassins. Combine with this being a demi-god who can influence the minds of those around them, level small armies with just their voice and an army of dragons, even if the Dragonbron dosen't manage to reconquer all of tameril, it is likely to cause a regime change in the Dominon where the thalmor get overthrown by a faction that is more hospitable towards humans

[positronics]

 

 

I wrote this a while ago on gamefaqs when I first completed the Civil War quests, and now that I'm pretty much done with every quest there is I wonder what you enlightened folk think of it, because I'm still excited about the possibility of it for the next title.

 

 

Note: This topic contains some Spoilers for those who haven't completed Skyrim.

I've been studying the history of the Mede Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion in order to make my decision on whether or not to side with the Imperials or Stormcloaks.

Now, I'm aware that Ulfric is listed as an uncooperative asset for the Thalmor. I'm also aware that he was at one point a willing conspirator with the Thalmor during the Markarth Incident. This makes Ulfric the ultimate cause of expanded Thalmor influence in the region, under the guise of cracking down on Talos worship and enforcing the Concordant.

These things are indicative of Ulfric's ego, of his desire for power, and are completely irrelevant to me. Ulfric's life is a flash in the pan of history.

We know the Thalmor used Ulfric to cause the civil war. We know they want it to continue, and don't want either side to emerge victorious. What I'm trying to determine is which situation would be worse for the Thalmor: an Imperial victory, or a Stormcloak victory?

It is clear that with the ascendancy of Alinor, and the growing rift between Men and Mer, the possibility of a united Tamrielic Empire is nearly impossible. Morrowind is in utter ruin and the Dark Elves are scattered, forced to live in other provinces amongst inhospitable humans. Black Marsh is battered and withdrawn, with ambiguous loyalties. The other new Betmer provinces are pro-Dominion, leaving the entire south under Thalmor influence.

The Mede Empire inherited the Oblivion Crisis and has been crumbling ever since. Should we be surprised? The legitimacy of the dynastic rule over all of Tamriel ended with Martin Septim, and what has come since has been Council squabblers and Colovian warlords. A warlord is basically a bandit with a better bloodline.

At the end of my long study, I came to this conclusion: The Mede Empire is living strategically in the Third Era.They have not accepted or adjusted to the Fourth Era's new world order. If the canon of TESV follows previous installments practice of "all quests happen", Tidus Mede II was taken by Sithis during the Skyrim Civil War, further weakening Cyrodiil's waning power. Who will take over the throne next? Another Count who's claim to fame is being the mayor of Chorrol?

In a Stormcloak victory, Skyrim successfully rebels. it is only logical High Rock - now geographically isolated from the Empire - would follow next. Bretons are notoriously political creatures. They would see the writing on the wall.

Would this spell the end of the Empire? Yes and no.

A lot of posters argue that a Stormcloak victory would spell doom for humans, citing the divide and conquer strategy employed by the Thalmor. A Stormcloak victory would allow the races of Man to face the bitter reality that Hammerfell already knows: the Thalmor want to enslave all Mankind.

If the races of Men are to avoid subjugation, they need a new power base. Cyrodiil is too close to the Dominion and as the Great War proved, too exposed to their power. Divine reasons for the Imperial City as the mortal epicenter are over - the Dragonfires were extinguished centuries ago. Furthermore, Cyrodiil will likely be the first and most hotly contested region during the Second Great War. High Rock or Skyrim would be much better suited for a capital, as both are mountainous and far removed from the Dominion.

The human-dominated provinces need to get real and save themselves, so as a Breton I will be supporting the Stormcloaks.

***

A few notes on what I posted then: For some reason I thought that Black Marsh had been hit hard by some natural or divine disaster soon after the 4E, but apparently they did well with the An-Xileel and took over much of southern Morrowind, including a sack of Mournhold.

Also, its become more clear that the Dark Elves and the Nords have a decent chance of good relations, since its come to light that the Nords gave Solstheim to the Dunmer during the Red Mountain Crisis. This, in my opinion, makes a North vs. South conflict all the more likely, with the Kingdoms at war with the Aldmeri Dominion and Morrowind officially neutral but lending supplies or other aid to the Kingdoms. The South would be comprised of the Dominion and their puppet states, probably including Black Marsh.

Cyrodiil will once again be ground zero in any such conflict, and so is no place for the political authority to be centered. Besides, the Imperials are living in a Third Era fantasy land where they are still policing a willing world. It makes a lot more sense to align rule in the mountainous, removed north. High Rock is a good place to have the binding focused, it being very mountainous, far out of the Dominion's reach, and in the geographic center of a Hammerfell-High Rock-Skyrim alliance. Also, the Direnni Tower is impregnable, having been made out of pure god-metal, and as mentioned in the Charwich-Koniinge Letters, walled towns are the norm in High Rock, even small Breton villages are fortified with a strong wall.

It'd be a mess if the Dominion ever tried to invade a unified North.

I think the thalmor would take their time sowing discord amongst the human kingdoms if the Empire fully collapsed (which would likely come from a Stormcloak victory in the civil war) as the absence of the bureaucracy that was needed to keep potential divisionism to a manageable level, would make any long term alliance very difficult to maintain. I still say a Dovahkiin who sided with the Empire, would have a very good chance of becoming Emperor would be the best defence against the Thalmor, depending on their decisions would have support from some of the finest warriors, a band of powerful mages, a guild of master thieves (I think they would be very good at espionage) and a cult of assassins. Combine with this being a demi-god who can influence the minds of those around them, level small armies with just their voice and an army of dragons, even if the Dragonbron dosen't manage to reconquer all of tameril, it is likely to cause a regime change in the Dominon where the thalmor get overthrown by a faction that is more hospitable towards humans

 

Why do you expect to become Emperor? It's never happened before in TES games, and you're not exactly in the political hierarchy of Cyrodiil by the end of the Civil War quest, you're a Legate, which is a subaltern to the command of a Province.

 

If you -did- somehow become Emperor, you said so yourself, you'd have to reconquer all of Tamriel... and how is that not fracturing potential allies? You're talking about going to war with Hammerfell and Morrowind, with a hostile Dominion waiting in the wings...

 

Your guild and Dragonborn power additions are equally applicable to any Stormcloak victory.

 

The Empire is being policed by the Thalmor already. They're the weaker party in the relationship, and in a position to be manipulated much more readily than a unified race of humans would be.

 

How would the Thalmor sow discord among these new anti-Thalmor Kingdoms? The Kingdoms would be aligned against the dominance of Mer, and their alliance would be naturally immune to Thalmor politicking.

[MightyZ0G]

sowing discord would be easy, do exactly the same as in Skyrim and stir up the extremists and get them to think that the rulers of the province are selling them out to the Thalmor and start another civil war.

 

you are right that Cyrodiil will fall to the Dominion quite soon after a Stormcloak victory in Skyrim but that will make life even harder for everyone standing against the Thalmor. the Dominion just get the civil wars going and pick off each province as the civil unrest weakened it enough and the others are all too busy to offer any assistance.

 

but you do have the right answer

The human-dominated provinces need to get real and save themselves

and that means saving the Empire or watching the Dominion gain complete control over the fate of man (although that will make TESVI an awesome game if you are in an anti Thalmor role)

 

as for who will lead the Empire if the assassination happens whether that quest line is completed by the player or not, there are plenty of rocks for an Emperor to crawl out from under, but it is that continuity and stability that an Empire brings to the table when everyone has a common enemy rather than all the negotiations between all the individual provinces to protect their individual interests.

[positronics]

mighty zog, on 15 Mar 2013 - 17:09, said:

mighty zog, on 15 Mar 2013 - 17:09, said:

sowing discord would be easy, do exactly the same as in Skyrim and stir up the extremists and get them to think that the rulers of the province are selling them out to the Thalmor and start another civil war.

 

you are right that Cyrodiil will fall to the Dominion quite soon after a Stormcloak victory in Skyrim but that will make life even harder for everyone standing against the Thalmor. the Dominion just get the civil wars going and pick off each province as the civil unrest weakened it enough and the others are all too busy to offer any assistance.

 

but you do have the right answer

Quote

Quote

 

The human-dominated provinces need to get real and save themselves

and that means saving the Empire or watching the Dominion gain complete control over the fate of man (although that will make TESVI an awesome game if you are in an anti Thalmor role)

 

as for who will lead the Empire if the assassination happens whether that quest line is completed by the player or not, there are plenty of rocks for an Emperor to crawl out from under, but it is that continuity and stability that an Empire brings to the table when everyone has a common enemy rather than all the negotiations between all the individual provinces to protect their individual interests.

How do you propose saving the Empire? By invading Hammerfell and Morrowind? I can bet they aren't going to go back into the fold peacefully. Hammerfell severed relationships because of the White-Gold Concordant, and you hear from Tullius himself that the Empire's plan is to bide its time, not eliminate the Concordant. So Talos bans will continue, as well as Thalmor policing of Imperial provinces. Morrowind was abandoned during the Red Mountain Crisis, and got more help from the Nord High King than it did from the Emperor. Why would they join Cyrodiil again? Blacklight is doing fine on their own.

 

What does the Empire look like if it emerges as the victor from a Skyrim Civil War? Even more battered and bruised than when it came into the conflict, and their only decent Emperor in 100 years assassinated, and half the population of their largest Province angry with them. Imperial occupation of Skyrim would continue, enforcement of the Thalmor-directed Talos ban will continue, costing a legion or two just to hold the north, while their real enemies lie all along their south. Not good to start. If you start invading Hammerfell or Morrowind to "save the Empire", you'll be even more screwed, because then you're fighting large wars on two fronts on opposite ends of the continent, with a very powerful Thalmor military to the South ready to heave north and split your stretched string. I highly doubt all of the Nords will be so enthused to save the Imperial City a second time around, after the butchering the Empire gave them.

 

Cyrodiil needs to get over itself and align itself as an equal of the other human nations. The Empire died with the last Septim. It was called the Septim Empire for a reason. Its successor, this new Mede Empire has died now with Mede II, who the game points out, has no blood heir. Who's to say this new Emperor won't be a puppet of the Thalmor, or even more beholden to them than those Emperors ruling under the Concordant?

 

EDIT: Also, the Empire is not at all about Man vs Mer. They see themselves as a dynastic rule over all the races of Tamriel, not as the protectors of one race against another. So I see you agreed with my point that the races of Man need to get real. But your insinuation that the Empire would also look to uniting the races of Man against Mer is defeated by even your own premise of reunifying and saving the Empire. The Empire's goal would be to perpetuate itself and reestablish the Empire over --all-- Tamriel, including the Human provinces, leading to Man vs. Man conflict and totally defeating the idea of a united front against Mer domination. The New Kingdoms of Man completely avoids the tremendous loss of resource and life in Man vs. Man wars.

Edited March 16, 2013 by positronics

[RatcatcherOfKvatch]

I was similarly torn, and was even Empire at first for the reasons given most succintly by Delphine: "The war is almost over then *bam* Ulfric is free. The Thalmor must be really partying down at their embassy with their pet dragon right now."

(Okay she may have said it a little differently.)

 

However ... on further reflection I realize I've underestimated the Thalmor. The Empire can't win with guerllias and terrorists legally acting as a secret police force for an enemy power within its borders. They're not just killing Talos worshippers, which is bad enough; they've killed off their counter-intelligence counterparts The Blades, they attempted to assassinate the Archmage of Winterhold to gain control of its reasearch and resources, and they're conducting kidnappings in Whiterun to no doubt nefarious ends. The worst of it is how much of what they do is actually legal.

 

This is in Earth historical fact one of the reasons South Vietnam's government was so weak and ineffective. The Viet Cong guerillas kept lists of names of anyone they deemed an enemy of Communism and targeted those people for assassination, executing them wherever they got the chance. One careless word spoken in public could get a person on "The List", and if the guerillas gained even temporary control of a village their political opposition would immediately be dragged out and shot.

 

The Thalmor are doing much the same thing, a process begun with the Blades and continued with their covert operations in Whiterun and the assassination attempt against the Archmage of Winterhold. Does anyone believe these are isolated incidents? The Thalmor are waging a war of conquest from within and those who don't recognize it are fooling themselves.

 

Under Stormcloak rule Thalmor would be killed on sight. The Stormcloaks might be a bit on the provincial side but at least they understand the Thalmor. Unless the Empire kicks the Thalmor out of its territory, renouncing whatever treaties are necessary to do this, they are doomed. The Stormcloaks may be mismanaged, but they at least have a chance of better than nothing.

 

This also affects you, the Dragonborn, at least if you're the diligent type who kills Thalmor on sight. The idea that perfectly innocent Thalmor killin' could be illegal is as unthinkable as banning the worship of Talos. I'm a law-abiding citizen, but as Dragonborn it's also my duty and destiny to kill Thalmor. I can't deny my destiny nor can I break the law. Only the Stormcloaks can resolve this paradox.

 

Lastly there's the OP's point, that Ulfric's ambition to take the war to the Dominion -- as he promises if he wins the rebellion -- would gain him allies; High Rock, Hammerfell (setting aside old differences to fight a common enemy as the Filipinos did with the Americans against Imperial Japan), and the humble "Stormcloak Rebellion" becomes a New Empire, just as Tiber Septim rode out of Skyrim to create back in his day. It may be a longshot, but the Empire has no chance at all.

[MightyZ0G]

the Thalmor are playing divide and conquer and anyone following the Stormcloaks is helping in this. Ulfric will get no support from the Dunmer considering how they are treated in Eastmarch under his rule. the Argonians probably won't feel like following Ulfric either for similar reasons and the Orsimer are proud to follow the Empire.

 

if the Stormcloaks win, Skyrim will be pretty much alone, the Empire will be over and there won't be a unified force to stand against the Thalmor who can pick each province off with little to no resistance.

 

the Redguards left because of the WGC but all through Skyrim it can be seen that the only people who actually care about it are the Thalmor and a few extremist Nords. everyone else ignores it without making a fuss and it only became an issue after Ulfric became an asset of the Thalmor. even the High King continued to worship Talos. there are shrines everywhere, even in cities where the Thalmor have agents.

 

once the Empire is in a strong enough position to strike back at the Dominion it will and it will be able to do this much quicker than any of the individual provinces could hope to. The Empire also has a chance of bringing Hammerfell back or at least as good a chance of getting them as allies against the common enemy as Skyrim does on its own.

 

as for the lack of an Emperor, Oblivion started with the assassination of the Emperor with no apparent heir, yet a new Emperor was found almost immediately. it won't be long before a new Emperor is found who the people will follow against the Dominion. the only thing that can stop this is if the divisionary tactics of the Thalmor work and prevent the Empire from rebuilding and fighting them on the Empire's terms.

 

edit to add: @RatcatcherOfKvatch you can kill Thalmor agents without breaking the law if you talk to them and admit worshipping Talos. they will attack you and you can defend yourself without having to break any laws and can then free the poor soul being held prisoner once all the Thalmor are dead :biggrin:

 

remember, if the WGC hadn't been accepted by the Empire, Cyrodiil would already have fallen and it wouldn't be long before the whole of Tamriel was under Thalmor control

Edited March 16, 2013 by mighty zog

[mirja]

Wow. This thread is thick with info. I like it. :happy:

 

I'm at the point in the game now where I should choose sides. So I can finish the game.

 

I'm lvl 78 and I've done all the quests and I've been everywhere. (dawnguard and dragonborn included)

I'm also leader of all fractions. (DB,TG,MG,Companions,Vampires)

 

All thats left for me to do now is the random thiefs guild/dark brotherhood quests. (boring)

And some bounty quests, kill the giant and/or the bandit leader. (even more boring)

And get the books for the orc in the library. (don't remember his name, but that is also boring)

Only thing enjoyable nowdays is getting wasted and eat too much cheese in the inns. :biggrin:

 

At the moment I'm reading all these threads here about it, but I still cant decide.

(I even started a new game just to have somethng to do while I decide on what side to join with my high lvl end game char.)

 

Beeing a woodelf I'm thinking about the Legion be caurse Ulfric seems racist towards elfs.

 

I'm not a vamp or a werewolf anymore, I'm just a simple little woodelf girl. ;D

I worship Dibella and don't give a crap about the other gods.

 

Any suggestions what side I should choose?

 

All input is welcome.

 

cheers.

[positronics]

mirja, on 16 Mar 2013 - 18:19, said:

mirja, on 16 Mar 2013 - 18:19, said:

Wow. This thread is thick with info. I like it. :happy:

 

I'm at the point in the game now where I should choose sides. So I can finish the game.

 

I'm lvl 78 and I've done all the quests and I've been everywhere. (dawnguard and dragonborn included)

I'm also leader of all fractions. (DB,TG,MG,Companions,Vampires)

 

All thats left for me to do now is the random thiefs guild/dark brotherhood quests. (boring)

And some bounty quests, kill the giant and/or the bandit leader. (even more boring)

And get the books for the orc in the library. (don't remember his name, but that is also boring)

Only thing enjoyable nowdays is getting wasted and eat too much cheese in the inns. :biggrin:

 

At the moment I'm reading all these threads here about it, but I still cant decide.

(I even started a new game just to have somethng to do while I decide on what side to join with my high lvl end game char.)

 

Beeing a woodelf I'm thinking about the Legion be caurse Ulfric seems racist towards elfs.

 

I'm not a vamp or a werewolf anymore, I'm just a simple little woodelf girl. ;D

I worship Dibella and don't give a crap about the other gods.

 

Any suggestions what side I should choose?

 

All input is welcome.

 

cheers.

That depends on what sort of bosmer you are. If you don't like the Thalmor, having escaped the cleansing in Valenwood for example, then the Stormcloaks are your best bet. The reasons are military and political, on a long-term strategic level. Think about it. Let's say the Empire wins the Civil War. Does the big picture of the world change? Not really, except for a more strained and drained Empire. They'll have lost their Emperor, a good amount of troops, and be forced to maintain a large occupying army in the north when those legions will be desperately needed hundreds of miles to the south.

 

The Talos ban continues, which causes Nord resentment, doubled by those who lost family members and lots of pride in losing the rebellion. This is a big problem since next to Cyrodiil, Skyrim is the Empire's largest territory. Recruitment rates in Skyrim will be a big net negative due to this and the necessity of keeping a high number of Imperial troops in the region. I invite you to fast travel to any Imperial camp in Skyrim. What do you see? Lots and lots of Imperials, that is, humans from Cyrodiil. Those are humans who won't be there to defend Cyrodiil when the next Thalmor invasion lands on their shores. It costs a vast quantity of gold and grain to maintain a fighting force. There are strategic resources of Cyrodiil that will be spent up in Skyrim that should instead be kept at their home.

 

The Thalmor policing of Imperial provinces continues, and leads to huge intelligence failures on the part of the Empire, and intelligence gains on the part of the Dominion. RatcatcherOfKvatch was right on in his assessment. The Empire allowing enemy agents to not only freely roam their lands, but to operate above their own laws and even dismantling the Empire's own authority is a strategic blunder of epic proportions. The Dominion will be able to freely assess troop strength, deployments, fortifications, and has the opportunity to greatly sabotage any defense effort before the first Imperial sword is drawn.

 

Look to the first Great War. The Empire was much stronger then than it is now. And their capital city, the Imperial City, was spectacular sacked by the Thalmor in a relatively short amount of time. This proves that Cyrodiil is very vulnerable to Aldmeri military power, and by that I mean geographically. Cyrodiil has a long, open shoreline very close to the Summerset Isles. And thanks to the Great War the Imperial Province's navy is pretty much non-existent now, so when the Thalmor do land in Cyrodiil, it will be wherever they chose. They will probably also strike up on land through Leyawiin like they did last time, since it's a short run to the Imperial City with a brief stopover in Bravil from there. This war will be worse for the Empire, the Dominion will be smart and not simultaneously invade Hammerfell again. All of its resources will be thrown towards a quick kill in Cyrodiil. But this time when the Imperial City is once again sacked, there won't be a volunteer Nordic army marching south to save the Empire. It will be lights out for Cyrodiil if there isn't a big simultaneous defense put up by all of the other nations. Will the other nations help a dying Empire? No. The Nords won't, not if the Stormcloaks lose, they'll be too bitter. The Bretons won't, High Rock is too far removed, and too politically savvy to throw their arm out to the drowning, flailing giant. The Orcs might, but then again, they tend to follow High Rock in political decisions. Hammerfell probably won't, since Mede II abandoned them in their time of need. Everyone will be looking to their own defenses. Morrowind won't, Blacklight is too far way, and they don't much like the Empire anymore.

 

Even if some nations do lend support to the Empire's defense, ironically Cyrodiil itself will be in a much worse position as an Empire than it would as a standalone nation, given that many of Cyrodiil's boys and girls would be occupying Skyrim to perpetuate this Empire instead of at home bolstering their own defense.

 

The Empire is already dead and just doesn't know it yet. It started dying during the Oblivion Crisis, and its last gasp of it was when the White-Gold Concordant was signed. Those posters who disagree with us Stormcloaks keep throwing around the term divide and conquer, but really it's the Empire's collapse that's dragging the former Provinces down with it, by the Empire lashing out against them and allowing the Thalmor to subvert them instead of saving its resources for the fight against the racist, evil Thalmor hell bent on enslaving everyone and perhaps destroying all of Nirn.

 

With a Stormcloak victory, the equation changes. The Empire will finally be put in its grave. This will be a blessing for Cyrodiil in the long run. Their large capabilities will be put to defending itself against a certain Thalmor invasion, not towards more Man vs. Man conflict. It will give High Rock and Hammerfell breathing room to work out a mutual defense treaty with each other, and recognize the new government in Skyrim. Hammerfell already knows the Thalmor are public enemy #1, and the Stormcloaks hold a very similar sentiment. In a Stormcloak victory, Thalmor agents in Skyrim would be killed on sight, and a big "F U" notice will be sent to the High Elves by the Stormcloaks. You can notice it yourself after a Stormcloak victory, everyone is pumped up to take the fight to the Thalmor next. Those who say that the Thalmor will invade Skyrim must take a look at the map, and then the lore. There are leagues and leagues of separation and a hostile Cyrodiil between the two, and if the Thalmor tried to land by sea they'd have to first deal with the largest navy in the world - the Daggerfall fleet.

 

The pro-Empire posters haven't really said how the Empire will be restored, only that it is a prerequisite to fighting the Thalmor. Any restoration of the Empire will involve Man vs. Man wars, and that will be a very very bad move to make in regards to a future war with the Thalmor. The Empire trying to restore itself in bloody wars that never end is exactly what the Dominion wants. They don't want a quick political realignment that looks to the future instead of trying to hold onto the past.

 

Cyrodiil has a place in the New Kingdoms of Man, just not as the overlord, but as an equal. I think that those who support the Empire should rethink it, not out of nostalgic sentimentalism, but with cold logic.

Edited March 17, 2013 by positronics

[blackninja50]

@mirja The empire would be your best bet. The stormclocks hate elves more then anything so no sane woodelf would join them, the empire on the other hand has always treated all races equally so long as they where lolly. Also the stormclocks are doomed to lose in the end (if they win the empire will get serious and send a real army to destroy them. Or the empire will fall and the Thalmor will come and crush them). The Stormclock bandits alone stand as much chance against the Empire or Thalmor as a snowball dose against hell.

 

@positronics Alaska is the largest stat in America and 4th least populous. Skyrim Is extremely similar to Alaska geographical specking. So I think it's easy to say Skyrim has a vary small population for it's size and is also not a big part of the Empires recruitment pool.

 

Also you said to look at the map and I did Skyrim is about 900 miles from summerset isles by sea that's about 10/12 days for a fast ship 8/9 days with good wind or magic. Skyrim also has 1,000 mils of undefended cost as well as 9 passes into it 3 of which are in Cyrodiil. So invading Skyrim from the summerset isles would be slightly difficult for most but easy for the magic using Thalmor.

Edited March 17, 2013 by blackninja50