The New Kingdoms of Man

[positronics]

@mirja The empire would be your best bet. The stormclocks hate elves more then anything so no sane woodelf would join them, the empire on the other hand has always treated all races equally so long as they where lolly. Also the stormclocks are doomed to lose in the end (if they win the empire will get serious and send a real army to destroy them. Or the empire will fall and the Thalmor will come and crush them). The Stormclock bandits alone stand as much chance against the Empire or Thalmor as a snowball dose against hell.

 

@positronics Alaska is the largest stat in America and 4th least populous. Skyrim Is extremely similar to Alaska geographical specking. So I think it's easy to say Skyrim has a vary small population for it's size and is also not a big part of the Empires recruitment pool.

 

Also you said to look at the map and I did Skyrim is about 900 miles from summerset isles by sea that's about 10/12 days for a fast ship 8/9 days with good wind or magic. Skyrim also has 1,000 mils of undefended cost as well as 9 passes into it 3 of which are in Cyrodiil. So invading Skyrim from the summerset isles would be slightly difficult for most but easy for the magic using Thalmor.

Skyrim is not Alaska. They both have snow, and there the similarities end... Going by the lore in the Elder Scrolls: Arena manual, Tamriel is 12,000,000 square miles. Knowing this, we can look at a map and by doing some basic math we can make an accurate estimate that each "side" of Tamriel is about 3,464 miles long. Skyrim's nearest point to Summerset is west of Solitude about 1 & 1/4 a "side" of Tamriel, so its about 4,330 miles away. The fastest two-masted square sailed brigs, which are what the Thalmor use, in the best conditions (assuming they cast wind spells constantly to keep a good speed) but laden with troops has a hull speed of about 11 knots, but this is not its average speed because those medieval ships had design flaws. The hull speed would be its maximum possible speed. Given this, you in theory could travel about 1,176 miles a week on a Thalmor vessel, but given that this is only the hull displacement value over time and not the actual distance covered, it'd probably be somewhere closer to 705 miles a week. This is with the crew and the Thalmor mages at full blast 24/7. Under these conditions, it'd still take more than six weeks or seven weeks, more than two months, to reach Solitude from Summerset.

 

That's a long time to sail, and meanwhile they'd have to deal with an unrivaled Breton navy for an entire month that isn't weighed down by thousands and thousands of troops, and has strong spellcasters of its own. And two months is plenty of time to prepare for the defense of Solitude, which is in the catbird seat for any ocean-borne defense, with a commanding view of both the sea and the land from its very high and hard-to-reach natural arch. The shoreline of Skyrim is foreboding, and not at all suited for a sea invasion. It's very rocky, much more rocky than Cyrodiil's coast for instance, and treacherous ice is everywhere. Not only that, the terrain beyond the beaches is very steep, with huge cliffs and bluffs all along the northern marches.

 

So no, I don't think a sea invasion is likely.

 

Now, back to your comparison of Skyrim to Alaska... false. First, there is no Sarah Palin in Skyrim. Second, the population of Skyrim is very large. Here is the demographic breakdown of all of Tamriel, according to the excellent methodology of UESP. You can plainly see that Nords are the third largest population in all of Tamriel, and would indeed account for Cyrodiil's largest populated province.

http://images.uesp.net/e/eb/ALL-Demographics.jpg

 

Also, since you brought up chances and hell, there is no chance in hell that the Empire will be in a position to launch a second army against Skyrim. Tulius says so, this is their last shot at it. The blow the Empire takes upon losing Skyrim is a crippling one. The bulk of their entire army was put into play in Skyrim. And it was destroyed. How easy will it be to gather enough resources to force its way through one of two passes while maintaining a plausible defense against the Thalmor? But I relent, you proved my point once again. The Empire is only about retaking its own territory, not about fighting the Thalmor.

 

Ulfric is a flash in the pan. He doesn't hate elves, he's a politician that knows how to throw the red meat to the simpletons that want to gobble it down. Even if you play a High Elf that joins the Stormcloaks, they're much more thankful to you than the Empire is for your help.

 

EDIT: These Stormcloaks aren't upjumped disorganized bandits like you suggest. Many of them are hardened veterans of the Great War, and have years of military experience under their belts. Don't forget, it was a Jonna's Nord relief army that saved the Empire during the Battle of the Red Ring. They know the Empire's tactics, having served in their legions, that's one of the reasons they are able to defeat them.

Edited March 17, 2013 by positronics

[mirja]

thanks to positronics for the massive info post.

 

I'm still not sure what to do though, but I'm starting to lean towards stormcloaks now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[blackninja50]

@positronics NO Skyrim is exactly like Alaska. This is Skyrim, not arena. The lore has changed tremendously over the past 17 years. Whats more the Akavir invaded Tamriel and Tamriel invaded Akavir which is way in the hell harder to do then fallow the shipping lanes from Summerset to Skyrim. The Bretons are part of the empire why would they attack the Thalmor and help the traitor Nords?

 

 

The UESP uses a willed guess compliantly dependent on all regions having the same population density which they DON'T. So you can throw out that silly chart. Skyrim is mountains and tundra, mountains and tundra don't support large populations simple logic says Skyrim has a rather low population for it's size.

 

Also the empire NEVER sent the bulk of it's army to Skyrim that's why they're recruiting locally and have such poor grade troops. The Empire may be weekend but they have a real trained army with real generals. The Stormclocks have no trained army (there bandits) and ulfric's only commanding skill is getting captured and manipulated. So I would say the Empire stand way in the hell more chance against the Thalmor then the Stormclocks. Skyrim's only hope for peaces and being able to warship Talos (an imperial by the way) again is to end the war and start begin rebuilding there strength for the final battle with the Thalmor.

[positronics]

@positronics NO Skyrim is exactly like Alaska. This is Skyrim, not arena. The lore has changed tremendously over the past 17 years. Whats more the Akavir invaded Tamriel and Tamriel invaded Akavir which is way in the hell harder to do then fallow the shipping lanes from Summerset to Skyrim. The Bretons are part of the empire why would they attack the Thalmor and help the traitor Nords?

 

 

The UESP uses a willed guess compliantly dependent on all regions having the same population density which they DON'T. So you can throw out that silly chart. Skyrim is mountains and tundra, mountains and tundra don't support large populations simple logic says Skyrim has a rather low population for it's size.

 

Also the empire NEVER sent the bulk of it's army to Skyrim that's why they're recruiting locally and have such poor grade troops. The Empire may be weekend but they have a real trained army with real generals. The Stormclocks have no trained army (there bandits) and ulfric's only commanding skill is getting captured and manipulated. So I would say the Empire stand way in the hell more chance against the Thalmor then the Stormclocks. Skyrim's only hope for peaces and being able to warship Talos (an imperial by the way) again is to end the war and start begin rebuilding there strength for the final battle with the Thalmor.

I LOL'ed hard. Skyrim is -not- exactly like Alaska.

 

The lore is old, but it's lore and the size of Tamriel hasn't changed since. What am I to take in place of TES canon, your imagination?

 

The Empire did send the bulk of its army. If you chose Imperial Tulius makes it clear to you that this is the only game in town, if his army fails, the war is finished. IE, there isn't another Imperial army waiting in the wings somewhere.

 

Your fantasies are kind of funny... You claim again the Stormcloaks have no trained army, and that the empire has a "real" trained army with "real" generals when the game itself proves you wrong. Go join the Stormcloaks, many are veterans of the very same Empire you say is well trained. Ulfric served in the Imperial Army during the Great War, and led an army of his own during the Markarth incident. Galmar Stone-Fist, Ulfric's second, also served in the Great War. Many of the Stormcloaks were soldiers in Jonna's relief army. So how are they untrained bandits, as you claim? The Old Holds all sided with Ulfric during the initial phase of the rebellion, and those have some of Skyrim's proudest and most seasoned warriors in their ranks.

 

They are also highly organized fighters, if you don't believe me, wait outside Castle Dour and listen to Tulius complain about their tactics.

 

Back to your Alaska claim, once again: Skyrim is not Alaska. And the work that Skywalker and the others at UESP did sure beats whatever unsubstantiated fantasy you are spouting about Alaska. Skyrim isn't a tundra wasteland, go look around Whiterun and Markarth and Riften and Winterhold. They are bustling cities surrounded by arable farmland. Humans landed on Skyrim first, its the wellspring from which the human population flowed through Tamriel. Of course it's highly populated. Five major cities doesn't quite sound like low population to me.

 

The Imperial army under Tulius' command is the 4th Legion of the Imperial Army, from Cyrodiil. Go fast travel to Imperial camps. How many Imperials (folks from Cyrodiil) do you see? Lots of them. So tell me another one about how they are all conscripted Nords.

 

What do you believe, your fantasies or your lying eyes?

[RatcatcherOfKvatch]

 

... once the Empire is in a strong enough position to strike back at the Dominion it will ...

There's the rub: with the Thalmor undermining it from within the Empire will never be "strong enough". All the people who might make a difference will find themselves imprisoned, executed, or otherwise "disappeared". You can't mount effective resistance when all your potential leaders wind up gone before they even have a chance to lead anything.
The whole Talos thing is just a sideshow. The real damage is done with the kidnappings and assassinations of important or potentially important people.

... admit worshipping Talos ...

I didn't know you could provoke Thalmor into attacking you. Nice.

WGC

Given how badly the fighting went for the Thalmor after the WGC and the "official" end of the war it seems more like it saved the Thalmor than anyone else. When the aggressors in a conflict sue for peace it is almost always because they're losing.

 

Let's look at the situation from the Thalmor's perspective: they've been beaten to a draw militarily then won a rather heady political victory with the WGC. The last thing they want is a hot war; they can't fight everyone at once and their ridiculously advantageous treaty puts time on their side. Divide and conquer isn't just a convenience for them but the only way they can survive. Nobody likes the Thalmor; almost everyone hates the Thalmor. Wherever they rule they will do so alone by stretching their military thin.

 

What will defeat them is moral leadership, someone who the people think has DESTINY! at his back. Ulfric, with the help of the Dragonborn, might inspire people with the story of Tiber Septim reborn in the Stormcloaks. What chance does the Empire have to inspire the various peoples and nations to unite? What mythology can they call upon to give the masses that sense of destiny?

 

Not much. There aren't any Septims anymore, no Dragonfires to keep lit, just politics. If the Empire had the ability to inspire it would've inspired by now.

 

If Ulfirc takes Skyrim -- with the help of the Dragonborn -- he can call it "A Victory Against the Thalmor" rather than hoot about how weak the Empire is. Who isn't going to want to unite against the Thalmor? In his Stormcloak victory speech he does just that, and promises to take the fight to the Thalmor. Are there any other nations that hate the Thalmor badly enough to join in? Almost certainly. Hammerfell is a given: the Empire betrayed Skyrim in much the same way it betrayed Hammerfell; the two are brothers in arms before Ulfric makes a single speech.

 

The fuel for the fire is already in place. Fresh leadership is the match that will light it.

[positronics]

Really good points RatCatcherOfKvatch, I hadn't even thought of how quickly the New Kingdoms Alliance could be forged because of Talos being reborn propaganda. I just knew that Hammerfell and Stormcloak Skyrim were natural allies, with the strong possibility of the Bretons following suit due to political expediency. But Tiber Septim reborn, that is something, and the Stormcloaks can use it -- the Empire can't, because A) They banned the worship of Talos, and denounced his godhood and B) The politicians in Cyrodiil vying for the Throne after the Emperor's demise wouldn't allow a legate to rise so high to be in a position of power in their shaky north.

EDIT: Kind of funny, thinking about it, banning the worship of the person who created your own Empire.

Edited March 20, 2013 by positronics

[MightyZ0G]

we can argue about what might happen if this or that happen and try to guess what fictional characters might do when the guy scripting all of this already knows that all of this is irrelevent because the next DLC sees all man and mer uniting against a worse common enemy than Alduin.

but we are better seved by looking at the facts of the current situation.

FACT; the Thalmor are trying to divide the provinces of man and set them against each other so that the Thalmor are in a far superior position.

FACT; Ulfric's Stormcloak Rebellion is a product of the Thalmor and is for the benefit of the Dominion NOT a Nord uprising for the benefit of the Nords.

with those facts known from information gained in the game it is obvious that if you are against the Thalmor then the logical choice is to be for the Empire in the civil war.

joining the Stormcloaks or not getting involved plays into the Thalmor's hands by either weakening the Empire beyond repair or prolonging the war and preventing the Empire from rebuilding to a position where it can take the fight to the Thalmor.

just taking it as a numbers game, if the Empire wins then you have the Empire including the majority of Skyrim to form the core of an anti Thalmor alliance.

if the Stormcloaks win then you have the remains of the Empire without Skyrim standing against the Thalmor and the majority of Skyrim sat twiddling their thumbs until the Thalmor are ready to deal with them or the Thalmor will take Skyrim while it is weakened and the Empire is in no position to or has no desire to help.

 

but that doesn't mean you shouldn't choose the Stormcloaks from a roleplaying point of view.

the Stormcloak side is romantic and emotional and attractive to many Nords.

[RatcatcherOfKvatch]

Your presentation of your point-of-view as the only rational one I will interpret as a failure on your part to understand my reasoning. If you think you deserve better ... so do we.

[mirja]

F**k it, I'm going for legion.

[positronics]

mighty zog, on 20 Mar 2013 - 15:52, said:

we can argue about what might happen if this or that happen and try to guess what fictional characters might do when the guy scripting all of this already knows that all of this is irrelevent because the next DLC sees all man and mer uniting against a worse common enemy than Alduin.

but we are better seved by looking at the facts of the current situation.

FACT; the Thalmor are trying to divide the provinces of man and set them against each other so that the Thalmor are in a far superior position.

FACT; Ulfric's Stormcloak Rebellion is a product of the Thalmor and is for the benefit of the Dominion NOT a Nord uprising for the benefit of the Nords.

with those facts known from information gained in the game it is obvious that if you are against the Thalmor then the logical choice is to be for the Empire in the civil war.

joining the Stormcloaks or not getting involved plays into the Thalmor's hands by either weakening the Empire beyond repair or prolonging the war and preventing the Empire from rebuilding to a position where it can take the fight to the Thalmor.

just taking it as a numbers game, if the Empire wins then you have the Empire including the majority of Skyrim to form the core of an anti Thalmor alliance.

if the Stormcloaks win then you have the remains of the Empire without Skyrim standing against the Thalmor and the majority of Skyrim sat twiddling their thumbs until the Thalmor are ready to deal with them or the Thalmor will take Skyrim while it is weakened and the Empire is in no position to or has no desire to help.

 

but that doesn't mean you shouldn't choose the Stormcloaks from a roleplaying point of view.

the Stormcloak side is romantic and emotional and attractive to many Nords.

Your assumptions need to be couched in reality. The Empire does not take the fight to the Thalmor upon victory, they "bide their time". They don't kick the Thalmor out. In an Empire victory, the result is status quo ante bellum. There are still hostile Nords upset with the Talos ban. There are still Thalmor agents legally infiltrating all of Skyrim (and the rest of the Empire). Ulfric on the other hand hunts down the Thalmor agents, and openly calls for war with the Thalmor after a Stormcloak victory.

 

The Empire doesn't get stronger with a victory in Skyrim, for the reasons I listed above and in my past posts. It gets weaker in either case. From a strategist statistician's point of view, the Empire is in a worse position than before the war began, with the 4th Legion stuck occupying Skyrim and much of their capability depleted. The Nords are clearly not won over in the case of an Imperial victory, and there is still a large insurgency due to the Talos ban. The Empire's strategy is to hold the major cities and starve the insurgency, which doesn't ever really pan out, so your full reintegration of Skyrim into the Empire can't be a realistic outcome.

 

With a Stormcloak victory, the Empire will collapse and Cyrodiil has a chance to reorganize itself into something far stronger. I think people too often hear the term Empire and automatically think strength, but this is not the case with the 4th Era Empire. From Bethesda in their IGN press release: "The Imperial Army or Imperial Legion used to be the strongest fighting force in Tamriel. However, by the time that Skyrim takes place, the Imperial Army had been reduced to a mere shadow of its former self. With the disappearance of the Blades and the emergence of the Thalmor as a military presence, many view the Legion as corrupt and decaying, much like the condition of the Empire. The Legion's main base in Skyrim is the city of Solitude."

 

A Cyrodiil that could concentrate its resources on its own land will be in a much better position to weather a second Thalmor invasion than it would be with half of its forces holding down a hostile Skyrim. It's simple arithmetic. Like RatCatcherOfKvatch said, if the Empire were going to reunite the world peacefully, they would have done so in the face of the first Thalmor invasion. Instead, they fractured it even more, and started attacking their former colonies.

 

Furthermore, the Province of Cyrodiil itself is in a state of collapse. If the Empire has such a chance of reconstituting itself militarily as you claim, then why is this happening?

 

4E 188 - "A war of control being waged by Cyrodiil's two largest skooma traffickers leads to violent fighting within the city. The Lucky Old Lady statue is destroyed in the fighting. The Night Mother's crypt is raided and Alisanne Dupre, Listener of the Dark Brotherhood, is killed defending it. The Night Mother's remains would later come into the care of Cicero."

 

Leyawiin and Bravil to this day are still described as lawless. Banditry is at an all time high in the Imperial Province. Could it be that allowing Thalmor agents to operate within your borders is a colossal mistake of epic proportions?

 

The Empire surrendered to the Thalmor during the White-Gold Concdordant. It wasn't the Thalmor that sued for peace. It was the Emperor. The Dominion went into the war thinking they could bite off a chunk of Hammerfell. They were shocked to find the Empire in such a weakened state, and were so successful that their hurried and unplanned attempt to invade Cyrodiil very nearly worked. The Empire is much weaker now than it was before the war. What do you think a Thalmor invasion of a bandit-stricken Cyrodiil with 50 years of planning, half of the Empire's army stuck in Skyrim, and Thalmor agents all over the place will look like? A lot quicker and bloodier, I'd say.

 

Excerpt the Great War: "The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year. Titus II knew that there would be no better time to negotiate peace, and late in 4E 175 the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion signed the White-Gold Concordat, ending the Great War.

The terms were harsh, but Titus II believed that it was necessary to secure peace and give the Empire a chance to regain its strength. The two most controversial terms of the Concordat were the banning of the worship of Talos and the cession of a large section of southern Hammerfell (most of what was already occupied by Aldmeri forces). Critics have pointed out that the Concordat is almost identical to the ultimatum the Emperor rejected five years earlier."

 

The Empire may have won the last battle of the war, but strategically it lost the war big time, and is setting itself up for a huge and irreconcilable defeat if it continues to attempt to perpetuate itself onto other provinces. To prevent this, it needs to humble itself politically, remove the unpopular overlord sentiment it has towards the rest of Tamriel and reach out to other nations for aid. It needs to remove its troops from other nations so it can defend itself. It needs to recognize Skyrim and the other human provinces as equals, and above all it needs to recognize the Thalmor as it's number 1 priority, not maintaining power over its neighbors. It does -not- do this with an Imperial victory, so how the hell do you expect them to change their minds without changing internally? How can they protect others when they can't even flush out bandits from a town a stone's throw away from the Imperial City?

 

The Empire has to be dismantled before true unity can be forged.

Edited March 22, 2013 by positronics