Mr Burke and the lack of good old evil.

[Freols]

Just interested in the views of others on this matter really.

 

Was anyone else very surprised and disappointed that Mr. Burke turns out to be a one trick pony?

 

I played through the game as a good guy the first time, and everything seemed to slot into place, I ended up helping a lot of people, and I accepted a whole load of missions from tons of good guys... which was great fun and all... but then... I played it through as an evil character - I was in short very disappointed.

One thing I though Beth. would get right was the whole evil thing, the Dark Brotherhood quests in Oblivion was a master-stroke on their part, yet somehow, in F3 with all it's gore and gritty decisions, the option to be an evil male without a father seemed to be really quite boring.

 

After I nuked Megaton, I was all set up for a long set of quests and deep embroilment with evil with Mr. Burke or Tenpenny... but no, there's nothing... I have to admit I felt a bit cheated, a character of such pure sinister evil, under the control of a sadistic old mad bloke at the top of a tower - I was convinced there would be more, but it all ends with Megaton.

 

That's all I have to say really, I was very shocked and disappointed by it, Mr Burke seemed like something Beth. was going to expand on, but he only ever asks you to do one thing.

 

Anyone else feel the same way? I honestly hoped for a Dark Brotherhood equivalent, the game universe is far more fitting, it was a real opportunity lost.

[grumbler]

Agree. the least they could have done with Burke and Tenpenny was have them guide the "evil" player to Paradise Falls and the slaver quest lines.

[Tchos]

I have not yet tried being evil, but I did fully expect that Burke would have offered an evil quest line of the same length as Moira's Wasteland Survival Guide, so when I heard that no, in fact you still get to do the Wasteland Survival Guide even if you blow up Megaton, it seems there's not even any sinister temptation to be evil, unless you count the better accommodations at the Tower.

 

Looks like a modder will have to fill in for this notable absence of content.

 

Come to think of it, didn't Todd state outright in one of those preview videos where he showed the player nuking Megaton, that "You *could* choose to save Megaton instead, but there are quests here at Tenpenny that you won't get to do unless you blow it up." Was he just talking about the "ghoul problem" quest, or was there perhaps supposed to be more content?

[Conscripted]

I was annoyed how the evil in the game was dumbed down, in general. In many places they try to throw guilt trips at you (your father after he learns that you nuked Megaton, for example) or they force you to be a good guy or otherwise receive no reward. The first two Fallout games had a niche for the evil character, it had shady characters that you could meet and get to know better (Working for Gizmo and Decker in FO1 or becoming a slaver, irradiating everyone in Vaultcity and working for one of the families in FO2). Having a bad reputation opened up certain avenues wherein FO3, it only seems to help you get into the raider camp a little bit quicker (and that's about it). There is no incentive to being evil in FO3, whereas there were completely new story lines and good loot to be had for the evil FO1 and FO2 player.

[grumbler]

I was annoyed how the evil in the game was dumbed down, in general. In many places they try to throw guilt trips at you (your father after he learns that you nuked Megaton, for example) or they force you to be a good guy or otherwise receive no reward. The first two Fallout games had a niche for the evil character, it had shady characters that you could meet and get to know better (Working for Gizmo and Decker in FO1 or becoming a slaver, irradiating everyone in Vaultcity and working for one of the families in FO2). Having a bad reputation opened up certain avenues wherein FO3, it only seems to help you get into the raider camp a little bit quicker (and that's about it). There is no incentive to being evil in FO3, whereas there were completely new story lines and good loot to be had for the evil FO1 and FO2 player.

Agreed. Part of it is probably due to the concerns that roleplaying on the consoles is different, and part of it probably due to the fact that it is simply harder/more expensive to set up dialogues and quests with modern 3D games (you cannot be "evil" in The Witcher or Mass Effect, either, you can just be more surely or less).

 

I think it is more the nature of the gaming world than any conscious decision to eliminate really "evil' characters.

 

With the AltStart mod you can be a slaver or a raider 9allied with those factions) so you get to play the 'evil" role, but without a lot of the quests (and certainly not the main quest, for the raider types).

[Michlo]

Agreed.

[stickemup]

I kind of agree. I mean, there is plenty of opportunity to play as an evil character, it doesn't all hang on Mr. Burke, but I was very irritated that you could only do this one thing for him, I did expect a whole string of quests from Tenpenny tower. (mostly because I thought Moira was dead..... I laughed my ass off when she was alive and still her jolly old self...)

 

and like I said.... pretty much every quest can be solved an evil way and a good way, or at least played an evil and a good way.

[Kellao]

id have to say so

 

keep in mind though. Japan didnt want Mr.Burke in the game because of his ability to give yout he fusion charges to blow up the bomb. if they gave him too much more too do the japanese would miss out on a lot.

[Freols]

id have to say so

 

keep in mind though. Japan didnt want Mr.Burke in the game because of his ability to give yout he fusion charges to blow up the bomb. if they gave him too much more too do the japanese would miss out on a lot.

 

The wonder of politics entering the world of games... I don't believe the Dark Brotherhood was white-washed out of Oblivion. It was just the nuclear references that Japan couldn't handle.

 

I suppose the thing is, you CAN play as an evil character, but only as a chaotic evil character, the type that decides to be a mean male without a father at every turn... the whole idea of a 'law abiding' character without a sense of right and wrong seems to have disappeared. You can leave everyone in the dust and kill all the good characters, but there seems to be a distinct lack of law abiding 'evil' in the game - you know, the opportunity to be evil, but organised and self-interested, the chance to join a guild of assassins, or wage war against the innocent but socially unacceptable mutants etc.

 

Essentially, to be a cold killer, without being seemingly unnecessarily evil even at the expense of self interest...

 

Of course, I look forward to a mod that implements such content, but I really do have to wonder... did Bethesda intend to add such content in the first place? It seems fairly implausible that the creators of the Dark Brotherhood didn't even consider making a comparable alternative in the dark and gritty world of Fallout 3...

[Conscripted]

I was annoyed how the evil in the game was dumbed down, in general. In many places they try to throw guilt trips at you (your father after he learns that you nuked Megaton, for example) or they force you to be a good guy or otherwise receive no reward. The first two Fallout games had a niche for the evil character, it had shady characters that you could meet and get to know better (Working for Gizmo and Decker in FO1 or becoming a slaver, irradiating everyone in Vaultcity and working for one of the families in FO2). Having a bad reputation opened up certain avenues wherein FO3, it only seems to help you get into the raider camp a little bit quicker (and that's about it). There is no incentive to being evil in FO3, whereas there were completely new story lines and good loot to be had for the evil FO1 and FO2 player.

Agreed. Part of it is probably due to the concerns that roleplaying on the consoles is different, and part of it probably due to the fact that it is simply harder/more expensive to set up dialogues and quests with modern 3D games (you cannot be "evil" in The Witcher or Mass Effect, either, you can just be more surely or less).[...]

 

 

I don't think so, if you look at how much voice acting the first and second game had and their scripting system compared to the modern scripting systems (and the celebrity voice cast) that was used in FO3, it would seem to be that much easier to add in quest choices and the appropriate dialogue options to "be evil" than it was in the old days.

 

Modern computer and console games have entire systems set up that will track your reputation amongst every inhabitant of the game automatically via object oriented design, where before you had to manually set up every character and line of code. And keeping track of the various characters (even no-name NPCs) would have been a major hassle, but the computer can group them with preexisting groups (the faction system that Fallout 3 inherited from Oblivion) and make sweeping changes to entire categories, subcategories or individuals at will, with very little coding on the programmer side.

 

So I don't think its the time or money expense that would severely limit the number of quests, more likely the number of unique items (including sounds, meshes, skins, etc) that any quest might require. And as can be inferred by the number of quest mods, everything from the simple errand quest to the complex multiple task/choice quest aren't hard or expensive to implement at all. (Please note that I'm taking into account the history of the scripting system as a whole to include Oblivion, since Fallout 3 is based on it's engine)