Where should a desent Nord's allegiance lie?

[ShannonRutherford]

Futhermore, Ulfric doesn't show any empathy towards the Dunmer refugees or Argonians in his own city. Not to mention, he's racist towards other races maybe even the friendly khajjit which I started out as with my first character. The Dunmer and Argonians are treated like dogs and are totally undervalued. There is one Nord in Windhelm that sees the injustice towards the Dunmer and Argonians but I cant remmeber his name.

 

Those Argonians & Dunnmers are kinda nice, but i heard today that so called victim Suvaris Hag said that argonians are lazy and don't move their tails something like that plus she actually deserves to be slaughtered and humiliated cuz she has a business with a pirates, b&@*$, also that dude Revyn or Nazzem as dark elf is very suspicious. Teldryn Sevro said that he lived there and that place grey q. is filled with bitter dunmers.

[Anska]

You make it sound a little as if you were trying to figure out who the good guys are in this mess of a civil war and who, accordingly, are the badies. - I don't think it works that way. What I like about the CW and why it probably still is such an eagerly debated topic after all this time, is that there are no good or bad guys, there only are people and factions with believes, hopes and ambitions. So, personally, I make my decision by asking myself a couple of questions about my character before joining one side or the other.

 

1. Does the character put more value to the general well being of the people of Skyrim or to the ideals and moral values greatly cherished by the Nords?

The Empire generally argues for the greater good of its people, which most of the time refers to their physical well being. The Stormcloaks on the other hand are willing to endure some hardship to save the values which are are important to them. You could say both sides are trying to make Skyrim a good place to live in.

 

2. What do you make of Ulfric? Does he want power for power's sake or does he need it because you just can't change the world without a certain amount of influence?

Is he really just a powerhungry usurper who saw his chance to grasp for the crown of the High King. Or is he someone who just couldn't bear to sit on his detached mountain and devote himself to the Way of the Voice, while the world below was in turmoil and his people were dying in a great war?

 

3. The Thalmor Question.

An evil to be endured until the time is right to strike or an evil to be wiped back to their island as soon as possible?

 

4. How much does the Nords' low opinion of other races bother the character?

Is he personally affected by it because he himself is a Dunmer/Argonian/Khajiit or his spouse or best friend are? Or is he perhaps secretly quite happy that the Khajiit aren't allowed into the cities because as nice and friendly they might pretend to be, they are thieves, smugglers and drug-dealers after all.

 

5. Does the character reap a personal benefit from joining one side or the other?

For example a Thief from the Guild might consider it quite beneficial to see Maven sit on the throne of Riften and the East Empire Trading Company's Warehouse well stocked.

 

6. Does something in the character's past make a choice for one or the other side more likely?

A life spend as an imperial Legionaire? Thalmor imprisonment?

 

7. Is the character very religious, does Talos worship matter a lot to him?

 

I hope this helps.

 

 

Apart from this... blue is the new red and Ulfric has such a nice voice (I know, shallow reasons... ^^; )

[MightyZ0G]

You make it sound a little as if you were trying to figure out who the good guys are in this mess of a civil war and who, accordingly, are the badies. - I don't think it works that way. What I like about the CW and why it probably still is such an eagerly debated topic after all this time, is that there are no good or bad guys, there only are people and factions with believes, hopes and ambitions. So, personally, I make my decision by asking myself a couple of questions about my character before joining one side or the other.

 

1. Does the character put more value to the general well being of the people of Skyrim or to the ideals and moral values greatly cherished by the Nords?

The Empire generally argues for the greater good of its people, which most of the time refers to their physical well being. The Stormcloaks on the other hand are willing to endure some hardship to save the values which are are important to them. You could say both sides are trying to make Skyrim a good place to live in.

 

2. What do you make of Ulfric? Does he want power for power's sake or does he need it because you just can't change the world without a certain amount of influence?

Is he really just a powerhungry usurper who saw his chance to grasp for the crown of the High King. Or is he someone who just couldn't bear to sit on his detached mountain and devote himself to the Way of the Voice, while the world below was in turmoil and his people were dying in a great war?

 

3. The Thalmor Question.

An evil to be endured until the time is right to strike or an evil to be wiped back to their island as soon as possible?

 

4. How much does the Nords' low opinion of other races bother the character?

Is he personally affected by it because he himself is a Dunmer/Argonian/Khajiit or his spouse or best friend are? Or is he perhaps secretly quite happy that the Khajiit aren't allowed into the cities because as nice and friendly they might pretend to be, they are thieves, smugglers and drug-dealers after all.

 

5. Does the character reap a personal benefit from joining one side or the other?

For example a Thief from the Guild might consider it quite beneficial to see Maven sit on the throne of Riften and the East Empire Trading Company's Warehouse well stocked.

 

6. Does something in the character's past make a choice for one or the other side more likely?

A life spend as an imperial Legionaire? Thalmor imprisonment?

 

7. Is the character very religious, does Talos worship matter a lot to him?

 

I hope this helps.

 

 

Apart from this... blue is the new red and Ulfric has such a nice voice (I know, shallow reasons... ^^; )

 

that is probably the best answer to this question ever.

[RatcatcherOfKvatch]

@Anska: I went through that phase as well, the idea that the "best side" depends on who you are. Most of the calculations kept coming up "Stormcloak". However, I hadn't considered the advantage to the head of the Thieves' Guild of an Empire victory.

 

You've thought it through quite well. Some more food for thought:

 

I recall the Stormcloaks being angry with Ulfric for inviting the Dunmer refugees into Windhelm. He was good enough to do it anyway.

On the other hand how long does it really need to take to assimilate refugees and end their segregation?

 

Tullius is in league with the Thalmor, as is revealed during the Gray-Mane quest. The only Empire elements who seem to be resisting the Thalmor are the Blades, who are technically an outlaw organization disavowed by the Empire. But an alliance with the Blades is mutually exclusive to one with the dragons, there are only 2 Blades, and if any dragons ever did join the war they'd be worth a hundred Delphines.

 

Every Dragonborn at some point gets put on a Thalmor hit list. It's so easy to get on the list half the time I don't know why they show up. In any event, the fact that Tullius actively assists the Thalmor -- remember his letter to the Battle-Borns -- suggests the prudent decision is the same one Avulstein made at the end of Fralia's quest.

 

If your character plays on pure emotion it's a lot easier to make choices either way. "Ralof's my bud," or, "Hadvar's my homey," cuts through a lot of crap. :wink:

[Shubal]

Well, I don't know about you but I have in my inventory the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric.That concludes the matter entirely. In the real world he would be called a useful idiot in the employ of a supremacist ideology weakening his own while garnering points from the Thalmor.

 

I never get immersed in the self loathing Nord thing. All races are xenophobic by nature, only a socialist would pretend otherwise. If Vilja whines once more about the mythical cabbage in a pot elves that make her ashamed of her race, I'll put an arrow in her. I'm still playing a neutral and contenting myself with killing the Thalmor on sight. I like to engage them for their snotty supremacist attitude and then do them in. I also intend to put Ulfric and his band under the soil at the appropriate time. There is no moral dilemma to be dealt with unless you are so morally relativistic that you can't recognize right from wrong.

[stuff444]

How one comes to a conclusion is as if not more important than the conclusion in and of itself.

This is were the stormcloaks fail. They may have aligned themselves with arguably a laudable cause, but that dose not make that choice right. It just makes it an accident.

Edited April 6, 2013 by stuff444

[sisterof]

I'm quite of the mind that it depends solely on the character. We, as gamers, as people outside the TES universe, have no business picking sides. We can have preferences, but going as far as saying "right" and "wrong" is purely naivety.

I recall the Stormcloaks being angry with Ulfric for inviting the Dunmer refugees into Windhelm. He was good enough to do it anyway.

On the other hand how long does it really need to take to assimilate refugees and end their segregation?

 

Tullius is in league with the Thalmor, as is revealed during the Gray-Mane quest. The only Empire elements who seem to be resisting the Thalmor are the Blades, who are technically an outlaw organization disavowed by the Empire. But an alliance with the Blades is mutually exclusive to one with the dragons, there are only 2 Blades, and if any dragons ever did join the war they'd be worth a hundred Delphines.

 

Every Dragonborn at some point gets put on a Thalmor hit list. It's so easy to get on the list half the time I don't know why they show up. In any event, the fact that Tullius actively assists the Thalmor -- remember his letter to the Battle-Borns -- suggests the prudent decision is the same one Avulstein made at the end of Fralia's quest.

 

If your character plays on pure emotion it's a lot easier to make choices either way. "Ralof's my bud," or, "Hadvar's my homey," cuts through a lot of crap. :wink:

The situation in Windhelm is quite strange, as in other cities the Dunmer show no issues with assimilation. I'm not sure what's wrong with Windhelm, or why the Dunmer seem to be less willing to take part in Nord society there while in Riften they simply joined the rest just fine. Maybe Riften had other races for longer, and in Windhelm is a recent thing? I can't remember right now.

The fact that the Empire shows not a single tiny bit of remote inclination to refuse the Thalmor is what makes it very difficult to go to their side for all of my characters, even the ones I purposefully created to join the Empire. For all strength that may exist in numbers, the fact is that the Empire has not a single plan of striking back. Though I initially thought (and I'm still trying to believe) that Bethesda made both factions have pros and cons that made the Civil War utterly ambiguous, replaying the quests is making me feel like they did give the Stormcloaks the upper hand when it comes to a moral/strategic choice.

As for playing in pure emotion... that's the fun of it! We as players may sit back and analyse but the character is immersed in that reality, all he has are his sensations, the things he hear around, the stuff he sees. That's the joy of roleplaying - ignore your own knowledge, sometimes your own morals, and play by those of your character.

 

There is no moral dilemma to be dealt with unless you are so morally relativistic that you can't recognize right from wrong.

"In a way I envy you. The curse of much knowledge is often indecision." - Paarthurnax. :wink:

[Shubal]

Shubal, on 05 Apr 2013 - 20:30, said:http://forums.nexusmods.com/public/style_images/white/snapback.png

There is no moral dilemma to be dealt with unless you are so morally relativistic that you can't recognize right from wrong.

"In a way I envy you. The curse of much knowledge is often indecision." - Paarthurnax. :wink:

 

On the contrary, with much knowledge comes decisiveness. Partial knowledge brings indecision.

[Kayyyleb]

The Emperor is good at acting honorable, but he's really just a selfish old man. He proves that at the end of Dark Brotherhood quest. He seems to think that assassins are his to manipulate, and that just proves to my mind that he's a fool.

 

The Thalmor's strength comes from the fact that their leaders actually care about their people, and that's actually a strike against the Stormcloaks. Windhelm itself is proof of Ulfric's extreme indifference to the suffering of the people. That's just the sort of "leadership" that promotes the cause of the Thalmor.

I'm sorry but no.

 

Firstly, the emperor doesn't try to manipulate the DB at all. When you break into his quarters he calmly accepts that he's about to die and there's nothing he can do about it. All he does is make a last request which the assassin is completely free to comply with or ignore.

 

The Thalmor doesn't give a f*ck about it's people. Any non-Altmer is considered to be a lesser being. Even other Altmer who oppose the Thalmor are hunted down and exterminated. Literally none of your arguments stand.

[MightyZ0G]

the answer is pretty clear cut.

short term goals based on emotion = Stormcloak

long term goals based on logic = Empire

 

Ulfric's argument is emotional and all about Nord tradition and culture and freedom for Skyrim.

Tullius' argument is that Skyrim and the Empire need each other to defeat the Thalmor.

 

neither of these are right or wrong and for all the crap that Beth get for poor writing/scripting, they did a damn good job with this storyline.