To Join or Not to Join, that is the Question

[daventry]

Yea but Bethesda did an Error on their part, since only Guards realise whats going on when someone Important dies, everyone else act if the Person is still there.

 

I wonder how the Game will be when we get a DLC on the Thalmor War, will we still hear about the Emperor as if his alive.

[TheLoreSeeker]

Well its slightly different if Mede is dead before you join the Imperials.

If you join the Legion before killing Mede, Tullius has you swear to honor Emperor Titus Mede II. If he's dead Tullius just says "The Emperor".

[Anska]

There are some other cases of this, as well as the opposite. The innkeeper of Candleheart Hall is, for example, in total denial about the fate of her waitress, while Brynjolf and Galmar are at one point simply stuck in the dialogue / behavior of their respective questlines. In my eyes that's a minor oddity you can patch yourself rather easily if it bothers you - there are otoh quests that make more sense if you do them in a certain order: The Emperor visiting after Uflric won the CW, for example, sounds odd to me, just as the whole Markarth plot feels more natural under an imperial Jarl in my eyes - even Arngeir's words at the end of the mainquest make most sense, if you finished the mainquest first. That doesn't mean you are supposed to do these quests in a certain order though.

 

From the developer's point of view, you are probably meant to join the DB, simply because they put much more effort in the DB quest than in the option to destroy it. I wouldn't think to much about what you are meant to do, just do what you like, in the order that appeals to you most.

 

On another note, is there something like an official canon for Skyrim? I mean they will at one point have to settle how the CW was decided or if the Emperor died...

[TheLoreSeeker]

I'm pretty sure Mede dying is gonna be the canon.

[pheo3309]

I don't know if I'd really join with the Imperials or not. Not because I think either side is right or wrong, but because there wouldn't be this whole thing if it wasn't for the Thalmor. I mean think about it. The Empire is forcing rules and regulations that the White-Gold Concordat dictates. Ulfric wouldn't have allowed the Empire into his city until they (Imperials) allowed the free worship of Talos. They agreed and the Thalmor tightened it's grip around the Empire. Which gets to my point of why I don't think either side is right or wrong, is that with that treaty the Thalmor are weakening the Empire, it's allies, it's political standing with other provinces, it's morale with other provinces, and possibly effecting imports and exports along with their economy. Joining either to me is walking right into a trap of a war between provinces that was included in the Empire. Hammerfell ceded from the Empire after the treaty was signed. Skyrim was considered part of the Empire until the Skyrim Civil War broke out. Both of those provinces in the past in the Great War helped immensely against the Aldmeri Dominion. For me, going into the war would mean playing right into the Thalmor's hand. Despite who ever gets the victory, it's not a true victory for either side. Instead it's victory for the ones who set the whole thing into motion. Another province falls from the Empire of Tamriel, thus weakening man. At least in my opinion.

[Anska]

If you don't want to help the Thalmor, joining is actually not such a bad idea. They want to make the CW last for as long as possible to weaken the Empire but neither want they Ulfric to win. So whichever side you join, finishing the CW won't make the Thalmor happy.

[pheo3309]

Not really from a political standpoint. I mean when you look at how the Thalmor have been acting, everything that they've done has been weakening the Empire and Man in general. Remember; The Third Aldmeri Dominion's prime focus is to usurp Man so that Mer can rule and the Thalmor being a branch of it, is to unify all provinces under a one-government leadership with Elves holding all places of power, mainly political.

• The banning of Talos worship hits hard to not only Nords, but the Empire itself as Talos did rule in Cyrodiil.
  

• The White-Gold Concordat wasn't truly a treaty, it was the only thing that would end the conflict between the Empire and the Thalmor, which the concordat is the Thalmor's favor, not the Empires. It lists rules and regulations that the Empire are to follow and if they don't, it disrupts the peace.
  

• With that very treaty, Hammerfell ceded from the Empire Provinces of Tamriel, meaning that the Empire had lost a great deal of potential in future war efforts.
  

• As Hammerfell ceded, it also caused great tension between them and the Empire.
  

• With the Civil War erupting, either way; Skyrim cedes from the Empire Provinces of Tamriel, further oppressing the morale.
  

• As the war continues, many in Skyrim see it as instigation from the Empire rather than the Thalmor.
  

• More of a question; What do you think the Thalmor wanted with the Eye of Magnus? Remember, Ancano was ordered by the Thalmor to 'oversee' the studies, yet somehow he knew about the Eye. My best guess would be to use as a weapon if necessary to threaten the Empire to enforce the concordat or possibly command the Dominion efforts himself.
  

• During the Void Nights, the Thalmor used previously unknown Dawn Magicks to restore the moons, thus gaining the allegiance of the Khajiit. That's definitely not in favor for the Empire.
  

• In 4E 22 the Thalmor capitalized their victory with the Oblivion Crisis, claiming that they themselves had ended the crisis all the while overthrowing Imperial administrations in Summerset Isles while the Imperials were still weakened from the Crisis itself.
  

• In 4E 10, the Thalmor persecuted the Altmer Elite and 'purged' Summerset of anyone non-Mer descent.
  

The list goes on and on. If you ask me, they were happy that war broke out. They didn't care at all who won at all. They blatantly didn't offer aid to the Imperials and their goal with that was to weaken the morale of Skyrim rather than support either cause according to the lore that's been stated. Regardless of the Civil War, it not being an Empire Province, it weakens Skyrim's morale from a political standpoint. There's no High King if the Imperials win. If the Stormcloaks win, Imperial loyalists of Skyrim will have poor morale and possibly even be either 'witchunted' for being a loyalist, or/and killed. The province is in disarray. Dragons had terrorized the province which goes in the Thalmor's favor.

Those things and the above definitely say to me that the Thalmor are happy because either way, they didn't need to get their hands bloody. They let Man do all the work for them. If you ask me, I'd love some Thalmor factions that you can destroy, but I think I see why Bethesda didn't include them in Skyrim. I think they have something planned in the future with them, at least I hope. I find the Thalmor and the Dominion fascinating lore wise. Not only did Bethesda make a faction that created a sort of Nirn-ized version of the Cold War, and the superpowers being between the Dominion and the Empire, but they also had them stir the pot for Civil War. If it wasn't for the Thalmor pressuring the Empire to ban Talos worship from Skyrim, I don't think war would have broke out. Not between the Imperials and Stormcloaks at least. I think it would have been a true Civil War of Skyrim itself rather than an Empiric Civil War.

For me, that's why I'd join neither cause because both Imperials and Stormcloaks are pawns on a huge chessboard. As Kreia says in KoTOR II with a similar game, "No game of Dejarik can be played without pawns, and this may prove to be a very long game." Both sides were being played from the start.

Edited April 19, 2013 by pheo3309

[Anska]

I always thought, the Thalmor are rather blunt on the topic in Ulfric's Dossier. They are are happy about the war, want to keep it in a stalemate for as long as possible and don't want Ulfric to win. - Probably because they would loose access to Skyrim this way.

 

Who started the CW over what might be a nice topic of debate but it doesn't change a thing about the fact that currently, there is a war going on, which helps nobody but the Thalmor. The CW weakens both Skyrim and the Empire and keeps them from concentrating on the Thalmor instead, once the war is over, the Thalmor will have to pay a lot more attention to what the Empire and/or Skyrim are up to again. Tullius as well as Ulfric tell you in no unclear terms that they want Skyrim to return to normal as soon as possible once the CW is finished, so I doubt there will be any "witch-hunts". The Moot will name a new High King/ Queen and I wouldn't pay such a high value to public morale either. The people on the loosing side aren't happy, that's true, but they don't seem to give up their lives completely either. I especially liked Ulfric's die-hard fangirl Hermir in this regard. You'd expect her to be among those most downcast after an Imperial victory but instead she goes on with new determination and even helps her teacher to get over the lost war.

 

The Imperials and the Stormcloaks might only be pawns, but then, there always is promotion.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Anska

[daventry]

Are we still talking about witch Quest i must do first, because i think that Question has been answered already, so what are you guys talking about now and thanks for helping me. Edited April 19, 2013 by daventry

[Bhanqwa]

Are we still talking about witch Quest i must do first, because i think that Question has been answered already, so what are you guys talking about now and thanks for helping me.

Any thread that mentions the Civil War Quest will receive a ton of back and forth banter, whether it's relevant to the original post or not.