The Palastine Question

[Malchik]

postaldudeleo, that last post was bigoted and sounded racially motivated, even if you did not intend it to be. I have deleted it before it led to flames. Should you wish to post a reasoned and sensible argument nobody will object. This forum is read by people all over the world. You may not be unbiased, few people are, but try not to let it come across as intolerance.

 

Thanks.

 

And note the spelling is Israel, not Isreal!

[surian]

Postal, I've been to Israel also, I have also seen palestine and I will agree with you that there is a stark difference between the two places both in terms of economy and in terms of the genral additude of the public (forgive my spelling as it's 4am here). However, let's look at some facts and when you are done reading this you ask yourself this question. WHY are they so angry at Israel and the US? That's the question that we should all be asking, not only why but how. How did they get to a point where they would act this way. Read the following. It took me about 3 hours of research to find this stuff, 3 hours is all it takes to understand what is going on. These points are from websites, encyclopedias, books I own and some webcasts that I downloaded. Websites include Time magazine, CNN, US News as well as sites offering transcripts of interviews with various political figures. Google can help us become more educated ;)

 

___In the Beginning___

 

50 years ago the UN (which at the time had very few 3rd world members) recommended the partition of Palestine into Palestinian and Jewish states. Jerusalem would be internationally split between the two. The jewish minority would gain the majority of the land and the palestinian majority would recieve the minority of the land that used to be theirs. Jerusalem would also gain most of the fertile land while Palestine would gain most of the wasteland. To be fair, some of the fertile land was made so by the jewish kabbutz (sp?) but much of the land was genuinely better than what Palestine was going to get. A civil war and then a regional war broke out and when peace was declared what was left was a Jewish state, but no Palestinian state and no international Jerusalem, it was instead devided between Israel and Jordan.

 

However, the Israelis were not satisfied with just denying a Palestinian state, they began to expell as many Palestinians as possible. This ethnic clensing (defined as forced expulsions directed at a specific group facilitated by acts of terror, which is exactly what happened) drove hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their ancestrial lands to refugee camps. Note that I said ancestrial lands, because they had been living there for thousands of years, even though the Israelis lived there before that, they had been gone for long enough that I would consider several thousand years enough time to become ancestral. In 1967 Israel conquered Jordan's share of Palestine and created a new wave of Palestianian refugees and created an even larger occupied territory.

 

In 1948 over 3/4s of a million palistinians where expelled from their land and today these refugees and their decendants number well over 3.5 million and live in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and other countries in the Arab world. As if they hadn't had enough Isreal invaded Lebanon in 1982, further aggrivating the situation.

 

_____Israeli wars_____

 

In 1956 Israli troops invaded the Sanai Peninsula after Egypt nationalized the suez Canal. They only withdrawl after pressure from the US and the Soviet Union. Please note that this was not a war started by any act of military agression by Egypt (however nationizing the suze canal would have crippling effects on the economy of Israel.

 

1967 really started everything though. In 1967 Israel destroyed the Arab armies of the time (particularly Egypt). Amid threats of Arab invasion Israel launched it's offensive against Egypt, Jordan and Syria. However the roots of the war are much more complicated. It was in 1967 that Israel conquered what is now the occupied territories (as well as more that they gave back). It should also be noted that during this time there was an Israeli attack on a US (yes US) spy ship, USS Liberty which killed 35 crewman and almost sank the ship. No one knew at the time who attacked the ship and the US ordered phantom jets armed with nukes towards the area. Remember, at this time the USSR was still around, we almost got into a nuclear war when, quite suddenly, the pentagon ordered the planes back. It is generally assumed now that this had to do with a plan Israel had to attack the Golan Heights and that they didn't want the US to know about this because the US would have stopped it. Eventually, after the ceasefire ended the war in 1967 Israel attacked the Golan Heights anyway and claimed it.

 

In March of 1979, the US reached a peace agreement between Israel and the Arab nations (Under President Carter). Israel gave back the sinai peninsula and the Golan Heights but kept the Gaza strip. However in 1981 Israel annexed the Golan Heights again.

 

After the war there was an agreement reached called UN-242, this has changed now over the years but originally it stated that Israel would withdrawl all of it's troops and give back all the land it had gained control of since the start of the war. In return there would be peace with Israel from all the Arab world. This was US backed and signed, it was US policy as well as UN policy. However, UN 242 did absolutely nothing for the Palestinians (who were amonst the first to be conquered). There was no referance to them at all except to say that there was a refugee problem that would eventually have to be looked into.

 

The US involvement in this can't be overstated either. declassified documents from this time have quotes referring to the Mid East as "strategically the most important region of the world" and "a stupendous source of strategic power", "the richest economic prize in the world". The reasons are obvious, in fact it's so obvious that people who say it now are treated like they have just said something moronic. The reason is that the Middle East has the largest energy reserves in the world. Not only is it in our best interestes to hold onto it for our own economic security but perhaps even more important is it's strategic and political power. If you control the oil you gian much more veto power over what goes on all over the world. He who controls the gold makes the rules, no?

 

So, when Israel showed that it could deal with the Arabs on it's own the US/Israel relationship began to grow along those lines.

 

in 1982, after terrorist attacks from lebannon Isreal invaded and destroyed the guerrilla force based there. In 1985 Israel withdrawled most of it's forces from Lebannon but kept a security zone along the border that extends well into Lebannon policed by Israeli soldiers and members of the South Lebonese Army. Syria, in response to what they view as a threat to their borders by Israel (who had already annexed the Golan Heights from them) stationed troops inside Lebannon. This region where Israeli police patrol across the border of Lebannon has become a zone of much terrorist activity as well as Israeli military action against civilian targets.

 

____Second Intifada_____

 

In 1993 Rabin and Arafat shook hands on the whitehouse lawn and both sighned a peace agreement that should have allowed both sides to live in peace together. Yet since 1993 to 2000 more than 40 settlements were constructed in the West Bank, East Jeruselam and the Gaza Strip along with over 30,000 new housing placements. This, despite many international resolutions according to the 4th Geneva convention (which outlines the treatment of civilians in a time of war --- a by product of Nazi attocities in WWII). These resolutions state clearly that the Israeli settlements are illegal and Israeli settlers have no right to live in the occupied areas. Yet, even given this, the number of settlers increased by 80% in the 7 years between 1993 and 2000 and about 400,000 settlers lived there.

 

The agreement reached in 1993 was called the Oslo Peace Accords and it ammounts to the following: (taken from an encyclopedia)

# The principles agreed were, in essence, the withdrawal of Israeli forces from the Gaza Strip and the West Bank and the Palestinian right to self-government within those areas through the creation of the Palestinian Authority. The Palestinian rule would last for a five year interim period during which permanent status would be negotiated (beginning not later than May 1996). Permanent issues such as Jerusalem, refugees, Israeli settlements in the area, security and borders were deliberately excluded from the Accords and determined as not prejudged. The interim self-government was to be granted in phases. Until a final status accord was made, West Bank and Gaza would be divided into three zones: Area A - full control of the Palestinian Authority.

# Area B - Palestinian civil control, Israeli military control.

# Area C - full Israeli control.

 

The Palestinians had seen their land confiscated and Israeli settlements built on what used to be their homes, their sons and relatives killed, imprisoned, or deported; their homes demolished; and collective punishments such as the closing of schools and curfews imposed on entire communities. All this after the Oslo Peace Accord was signed. The civilians of Palestine decided to take matters into their own hands.

 

In response to Israel's refusal to honor this agreement palistinians began what became known as the 'intifada' which was mostly large groups of Palestinian civilians taking to the streets with rocks and sticks. However, there was also a very sizable movement of non-violent demonstrations. There was an increase in terrorist activity also, but the main force was litterally just people throwing rocks. Within days, Israeli helocopters (read US helocopters) began to annialate large areas of Palestine and started a 5 day campaign directed at civilian targets. When all was said and done the number of Palestinian civilians killed after 3 months of carnage was more than those killed in the 1987 uprising in which 40,000 where arrested and thousands where killed.

 

During these helocopter attacks (US helocopters with Israli pilots) the pentagon was quoted by the boston globe as saying this: “U.S. weapon sales do not carry a stipulation that the weapons cannot be used against civilians. We cannot second guess an Israeli commander who calls in helicopter gunships.” The US knew this was going on and they did nothing to stop it even though it was within their power to do so. The argument is that they can't tell Israel not to defend itself against militants but in this case it was clear that these were just kids with rocks. In October of the same year Amnesty International published a report that condemned the US for providing helocpters to Israel during and after the afore mentioned attrocities. It wasn't reported in the US. Later they published a report that was much broader in it's condemnation of US support of terror in the Middle East by Israelis and it too was hardly reported in the US.

 

Arafat was the instigator of this bloodshed only as far as he made concessions to Israel that amounted to letting Israel maintain control over the occupied territories both militariliy and commercially (roads, waterways) as well as gaining very little land for Palestine. What little land he was able to get was the most depleted areas and the most war-torn of all the west-bank. No orders from Arafat where needed to bring many thousands of civilians to the streets to protest Israeli occupation.

 

In 2000 Israel finally withdrew it's forces from the Lebannese security zone it set up 15 years go. The newly freed lebannese citizens had celebrations for weeks for the end of the Israeli occupation.

 

In September of 2000 [then] general Ariel Sharon marched into Haram al Sharif with a lot of troops. He didn't actually 'do' anything except be seen by many people and his actions can only be termed as a scare tactic, terrorism if you will. His goal is not clear, but the effect was more than clear. Palestinians began to roit 6, palestinians were killed and over 200 wounded at the shrine known as "Temple Mount to Jews and Noble Sanctuary to Muslims". Over the next 3 months 350 people are killed (most of which are Palestinians) and after 14 weeks of escalating violence Ariel Sharon defeats then prime minister Ehud Barak in the Israeli election.

 

_____Ariel Sharon______

 

On to Ariel Sharon. I am going to spend a lot of time on this because it is important now more than ever to know who this man is, and it goes a long way to show where much of the resentment towards Israel from the Palestinians comes from. He is best-known for his role in Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982, where -- even the Israeli Kahan commision found -- he was indirectly responsible for the indiscriminate slaughter of hundreds of Palestinians in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila. He has been an opponent for many years of any peace negotiations with Palestinians and rejects any Israeli territorial concessions. Now, he is the Prime Minister and leader of the conservative party in Israel.

 

Sharon has been nicknamed the "bulldozer" by Palestinians for his preferance of clearing Palestinians off their land to a peaceful solution to problems. He has one of the most extensive and brutal records of war crimes which spans over 50 years. To Palestinians he represents massacres, bulldozed homes, and a complete disregard for the rights and lives of Arabs in the area. His political party is made up of most of the racist elements of Israeli society.

 

During the time when Israel was still stuggling to become it's own state, Ariel Sharon joined the Haganah (one of the 2 terrorist groups mentioned by postaldudeleo i belive). It was an underground military organization formed by the Labor wing of the Zionist movement. In 1953 he was given command of "Unit 101", whose mission was to lead "retaliatory" strikes against Arab terrorism. However, these missions usually took the form of indescriminate murders and violence aimed at civilians, not at sources of terrorism. Unit 101's first documented assault took place in 1953 on the El-Bureij refugee camp south of Gaza. The reason for the attack was "retaliation" (just like he claims today with his attacks in Palestine as prime minister) despite no evidence of provocation. At least 50 refugees were killed. Bombs were thrown through windows while the refugees were sleeping and when they fled they were attacked by small arms and automatic weapons.

 

Later that year, Unit 101, under leadership from Ariel Sharon again, attacked the village of Qibya inside Jordan. The reason given was that it was "reprisal" for the killing of a mother and two childern in an Israeli village. Jordan condemned the killings and offered to help in the investigation. NO connection between the murders and Qibya was ever established or found. Yet unit 101 blew up 45 houses, a school, a mosque and killed 69 civilians including dozens of women and children. Here is a quote from Time Magazine where they reported that: Sharon's soldiers shot "every man, woman and child they could find. The cries of the dying could be heard amidst the explosions."

 

In his autobiography he claims that he did not know that there were people in the houses that he blew up... however, there was no attempt made to warn any of the civilian population, nor was there any mercy when his soldiers shot the fleeing women and children.

 

After the 1967 war Sharon was ordered to pacify the resistance still posed in the Gaza Strip. Here is a quote from Phil Reeves from the magazine "the independant":

Phil Reeves wrote in The Independent:

 

[T]he old men still remember it well. Especially the old men on Wreckage Street.... The street acquired its name after an unusually prolonged visit from Mr. Sharon's soldiers. Their orders were to bulldoze hundreds of homes to carve a wide, straight street....

 

"They came at night and began marking the houses they wanted to demolish with red paint," said Ibrahim Ghanim, 70, a retired laborer. "In the morning they came back, and ordered everyone to leave. I remember all the soldiers shouting at people, 'Yalla, yalla, yalla, yalla!'

 

"They threw everyone's belongings into the street. Then Sharon brought in bulldozers and started flattening the street. He did the whole lot, almost in one day. And the soldiers would beat people, can you imagine? Soldiers with guns, beating little kids?"

 

Reeves continues:

 

In August 1971 alone, troops under Mr. Sharon's command destroyed some 2,000 homes in the Gaza Strip, uprooting 16,000 people for the second time in their lives.

 

Hundreds of young Palestinian men were arrested and deported to Jordan and Lebanon. Six hundred relatives of suspected guerrillas were exiled to Sinai. In the second half of 1971, 104 guerrillas were assassinated.

 

In 1977 Sharon joined the right wing Likud party which was led by the former leaders of the pre-state terrorist armies Irgun and Lehi. Sharon was given the position of "minister of agriculture" and was put in charge of settlement policy. He was given the task of finding a way to confiscate Palestinian land for Israeli use. Sharon's solution? Redefine private property and state land. Between 1980 and 81 he acquired 31 percent of land area in the West Bank and the Jewish population trippled in the area to 18,000. One investigation done by an Israeli council found that Sharon had "urged Israeli soldiers to beat Arab schoolchildren in the West Bank".

 

In 1981, during the '81 war, Sharon told officers that Palestinian neigborhoods in Beirut should be "utterly destroyed", even though they contained 85,000 civilians. The American Red Cross reported over 10,000 deaths and 100,000 homeless by the sixth day of the attack.

 

This list goes on, he has attacked refugee camps, hospitals, villages, and women and children indescriminately. He is now the Prime Minister of Israel.

 

 

December 2001, Palestinian suicide attacks kill 25 people in Jerusalem and Haifa. Israel, under the leadership of Ariel Sharon, responds with two days of military strikes against the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Israeli tanks and troops roll into the Gaza Strip city of Khan Younis on Dec 7th. It should be noted that the suicide attacks most likely did not originate from the Gaza Strip as it is technically impossible (look at a map of israel to see that Gaza is separated from Jerusalem by a large body of Israeli controlled territory).

 

____Today in Israel_____

 

Today, Israel controls the economic heart of the West Bank and renders Palestine economically crushed. You think that the people of Palestine are they way they are because they are uneducated angry mobs? It's because they have no chance of being anything else due to Israeli control over any source of economic power in the region. Palestinian land has been expropriated and agriculturally destroyed. 72% of the West Bank was declared Israeli "state land" 50,000 acres were seized and 150,000 olive trees uprooted at one point. "Closure" was imposed on occupied territories in which no palestinian was allowed to cross between Gaza and the West Bank (remember.. not all palestinians are terrorists). Jerusalem became off limits to most Palestinians. Unemployment rates are 50% in the west bank and 80% in Gaza. Per-capita income has been down 75% in Palestine since 1993. Much of this area is still under Israeli control and therfor their responsibility to maintain. However, to this day Palestinian sections lack city services and all growth is constrained. Houses are also being demolished continually.

 

Israel has surrounded Palestine with troops, it controls the seaport, airport, airspace and "security" zones. Israel regulates all entry/exit trade. They control the aquifers and divert most of the water to themselves. There is no Palestinian sovereignty over religious and cultural centers and there are over 200,000 Palestinian East Jerusalemites surrounded by Israeli settlements on the West Bank. Ariel Sharon has said that "It's not by accident that the settlements are located where they are... Come what may, we have to hold the western security area, which is adjacent to the Green Line, and the eastern security area along the Jordan River and the roads linking the two. And Jerusalem, of course, And the the hil aquifer." These settlements are there specifically to maintain Israeli control over an area that the UN has numerous times declaired illegal for Israeli settlement, and for just those reasons.

 

Here are some figures for you to mull over:

Annual per capita income: Israel - $27,990 Palestine - $4,284

Unemployment rate: Israel - 20% Palestine - 65%

Population Density (persons/square mile): Israel - 175 Palestine - 1,761 (West Bank) 12,856 (Gaza)

Right to international travel: Israel - Yes Palestine - No

US Military Aid (yearly): Israel - $2 billion Palestine - $0

US Economic Aid (yearly): Israel - $840 Million Palestine - $30 Million

US Loan guarentees (yearly): Israel - $2 Billion Palestine - $0

 

_____Conclusion______

 

Now, you tell me, does Palestine have a right to be upset? I think so. Do you begin to see WHY they live in an area that looks the way it does? Do you understand what has caused this? It certainly isn't that they were just born hating Israel for no good reason or that they are somehow incapable of achiving anything more (which is basically what you claimed postaldudeleo when you talked about how terrible Palestine was). I think it should be clear to anyone that the reasons stem from half a century of Israeli abuse and US backed terrorism. Would things be different if the tables were turned and Palestine had the upper hand? Probably not, but that's not the issue, the issue is that I said Israel is doing some pretty horrific things and I have just shown you some examples of these things, the fact that the other side might do the same is no excuse for the actions of Israel or the US. We as a country, and as human beings should know better.

 

 

Here is a really good source for you to look at if you want to see some "official" docmuments.

UN Commision on Human Rights -- Question of the violation of Human Rights in the Occupied Arab Territories, Including Palestine

[Darnoc]

Very good research, it is just what I would have done. So I can only say

 

DITO!!! ;)

[surian]

What gets me is that what I say that I don't support Israel given all the terrible things they've done to Palestine I'm looked at like an anti-semite.

[Malchik]

It is strange that 'semitic' should have come to imply 'jewish'. The semitic races include both Arabs and Jews.

 

But it is part of this ludicrous concept, echoed among others by the current president of the US, that if you are not with us, you are against us. Grammatically this nonsense is called 'the law of the excluded middle'.

 

If I say I am strongly opposed to the policies of President Bush it does not make me anti-American. And yet there are those who would see it that way. Similarly being against the terrorist nation of Israel does not make me anti-Jewish. Fortunately most of my jewish friends in the UK feel the same way I do. And to be honest I believe many of those who live in Israel are unhappy with the way the leaderhip behaves.

 

IMO only when the US ceases to support Israel will that country face reality and find ways to live with its neighbours. (Although I wonder if it has been terrorising them too long now for the neighbours to be willing to forgive?)

 

At the present, despite the odd waver, I don't see that happening

[Darnoc]

You are not an Antisemite, when you don't support the Israli government. You are an antisemite, when you hate the Jews just for being Jews. The israeli government makes mistakes as any government, when you don't support them this doesn't mean you hate the Jews and therefore you are not an Antisemite.

[postaldudeleo]

Yay, thread on this issue.

 

Great job researching the topic. Yeah sharon is a war mongerer and I agree with that. But he is no worse then some of the saff on palistine's side.

Your not anti-semetic cause that means you dislike jews and muslims because of thier race and you dont, you just dislike the government.

 

But the fact is that jeruselem was jewish built and the cities aaround it were jewish build also should be considered. But it was as I said before, it was taken over by muslims later about after barbarossa's troops took over the city of jeruselem. We are not talking about the same topics though. Your talking about Israels government, surion, Im talking talking about the part of population and the terroists.

 

You where in Israel so you know that the population in Israel is 99% very nice.

Plus much of it is highly educated.

The government in Israel is I agree with you very strict and a few of the leading people have done not such good things in the past. But as you look at Palistines government, you would know that many of those people fund terroists and some even buy arms for terroists. But in government terms right now, both governments are gettign rid of the more harsh people from thier staff. Arafat is already gone and he was proven to give funds to terrorists and so where some of his staff. By the way, he funded terroists and got a medal of nobel peace before the fact that he funded terrorists was found out. Plus ariel sharon will be gone soon.

 

Anyhow, still though the government of israel has to be harsh as thier surrounded by enemies from all sides.....................

 

Mustafa (one of my friends) and I did a debate report for 11th grade speech and debate class. its 12 pages long. If I find It ill try to post it up......................

 

Still though, I bet that if palistine and israel governments were merged then you would get a pretty stablle country as that would end all disputes and terroists would be forced out......................(just a theory)

[surian]

Yes, Israelis are generally very nice people. You are also correct in saying that the attrocities exist on both sides, I've already aknowledged that and it's a moot point because of how well known Palestinian terror is. What's underknown is the Israeli part played in this all.

 

I was trying to explain to anyone reading this thread exactly what had gone on in the past that would get Palestinians and Arabs in general to the point that they are right now. There is much more at play here than just one side being naturally inclined towards war (and don't misunderstand me, i'm not saying you are claiming that).

 

You are right, at this point the situation has gotten so bad that Israel is left with little recourse but to be very harsh. I won't deny that. Yet, the reason it has gotten this bad in the first place is due in large part to the Israeli aggression in the past.

 

But to be fair, Israel has had some great leaders also, Rabin is one of them. It was a tragedy that he was killed and one that Israel may never recover from. He was truely searching for peace in the area and that is rare.

 

As for an Israeli / Palestinian country, I think that would be great. But the problem is how to overcome 1/2 a century or more of absolute hatred by many involved. Neither side trusts eachother and neither side has any reason to do so. There are 4 forces at play here internally. There is the Israeli government, the Israeli population, the Palestinian Leadership and the Palestinian population, and none of them react exactly the same way to any given situation. So it gets complicated very quickly and I don't see them living in peace together any time soon unless both sides can agree to end the violence and terror. I stress the word "Both" because Israel is just as much to blame for this as Palestine, perhaps more in some cases.

[postaldudeleo]

Well we can safely say that since ariel's promise to change things there isnt coming closer to reality so he definetly wont be elected agian.

 

But, there would also need to be a way to remove terroists without resorting to buldozing or uprooting because technically buldozing 1000 homes only to find 80 minor terrorists is not exactly a good thing. The only way to get to remove the terrorist bastards would be to let the populace of palistine stop that. But until they stop then israel cant lower thier military harshness. And if Israel doesnt lower the military then plalistine wont stop the terroism..............

 

Conclusion: Stalemate :( Just like the stalemate in world peace. But who knows..............