They're all wrong!

[jaydapie]

Well. I've just spent the past half hour reading some seriously dubious topics about the difficulty of modding, and the dangers of an egocentric project leader.

 

First things first; I've only made a few mods, only one of which I've felt comfortable to release to the public: The Crazy Scientist (available on TesNexus/PlanetElderScrolls). The rest are stored in my own personal modding archive. Neither have I been at it for a long time. I've only been modding for a year(ish).

 

However, the main thing I have learned is that you can never be too ambitious. So you want cheese to talk? It's possible (trust me, I've done it). So you want flying fish? It's do-able (just). So you want an army of sheep? Easy. There is always a way to do what you want done. You may have to spend hours scripting, remeshing or retexturing, but i've not yet come across something which isn't possible.

 

The point is that there are many 'experienced modders' out there who will tell you to curb your enthusiasm and be realistic.

 

If we all did that the all mods would be boring, monotonous, and uncreative...

 

OPEN YOUR MINDS!

[dezdimona]

most modders have open minds and while some team leaders mat fit that discription,I think they're rare. Very nice post though!

[LoginToDownload]

I've been meaning to download the Crazy Scientist... Looks interesting. ;D

 

Most of the "be realistic" posts I've seen, especially when related to collaboration leaders, refer more to scale than originality or creativity. Discouraging new folks against total conversions, for example. And of course, "be realistic" also applies to how much you're willing to learn/work. While there are things that Oblivion simply can't do (or can't do well), that list is getting smaller and smaller with every OBSE release.

[exanimis]

For the most part, I would have to agree with jaydapie's post. I have been told on several occasions that something is imposable or that I would never be able to learn the programs necessary to accomplish a task. I haven't let that stop me and I continue to learn more each day.

I believe that the only thing that is imposable to add to the game is any mod that the maker is not willing to put in the effort to learn to make. If you can think of an idea and if you are willing to spend months going through tutorials and learning the right programs, you can add anything to Cyrodiil.

 

I did learn one thing over the weekend that is imposable but has nothing to do with the game. It's imposable to get two female chihuahuas to go outside to pee with six inches of snow on the ground.

[Vagrant0]

I've been meaning to download the Crazy Scientist... Looks interesting. ;D

 

Most of the "be realistic" posts I've seen, especially when related to collaboration leaders, refer more to scale than originality or creativity. Discouraging new folks against total conversions, for example. And of course, "be realistic" also applies to how much you're willing to learn/work. While there are things that Oblivion simply can't do (or can't do well), that list is getting smaller and smaller with every OBSE release.

I agree for the most part.

While I tend to be more akin to one of those who would be saying that something is possible, alot of it is ultimately relative. For your average fresh modder, who has just done a dungeon tutorial, and suddenly has the inspiration to make a TC based on whatever movie they have just seen, yeah, them starting it with what they know, and what they likely have access to is probably very unrealistic. Not only do they likely not have the experience and familiarity with modding to do even a fraction of what they want, but because of this, they often have to depend almost exclusivly on outside help to even get them started. THIS is the kind of project that most of those threads are talking about, and when they were posted these were the kinds of projects which were constantly being brought up. Do a little digging. A good deal of projects within the first year of the game being out were extremely ambitious, were far reaching, poorly defined, planned, and didn't have anyone who knew what the heck they were doing. Understandably, almost none of these projects lasted a week. Threads like what the OP was referring to were posted around this time to suggest that these people try to be more realistic about what they could accomplish so as to not tie up those few skilled modders with projects that had almost no hope of even being started. Much of the problem of finding help with even a fairly well established product is because even still, modders are hesitant to join groups unless a good majority of the work has already been completed.

 

The other aspect is that just because one mod does something once, doesn't always mean that that system is particularly reliable large scale, or when used to excess. The impossibility of an idea is not related to how unusual the idea is... Far from it, but rather what systems that idea needs to utilize, and how capable those systems are at handling the needs of the mod. All of the examples you provided are ideas which essentially make use of already established systems, so although they may seem far fetched, they don't need much in the way of actual scripting. In contrast, something more mundane as setting up something like a scripted game of tag between the player and several NPCs is something which is far more complicated than you realize, requires scripting several systems to manage, and ultimately does not work particularly well due to how the AI manages itself based on that scripting. OBSE does not solve these problems, actually OBSE is not needed to even get it working. The problems arise entirely due to what systems are being utilized. It is this sort of knowledge that "experienced" modders normally use when they respond to the viability of a project, and eventually they have to explain this several times before the person realizes it... months later, after asking for help repeatedly on several forums. This is not to say that the "experienced modder" is always right, or that some new way of doing things might not be worked out, but rather what that "experienced modder" believes to be the current case, and what that poster is likely willing to deal with to get that exact effect.

[Maigrets]

Not all of us want to recreate the world in seven days and willingness to learn doesn't always equate with ability or state of mind.

Many are also limited by the hardware they have, by language barriers, education levels, and no matter how grand or revolutionary their mod ideas are, they may never be able to accomplish what they would like to do. Lack of desire to learn may have little to do with their ability to create. I take offense to people deciding what I can or cannot learn to do when they have no idea what my circumstances are. I have not asked for help for a large unrealistic project either.

 

I know someone who has had a major heart attack, and he has memory loss and other residual problems because of it. He still tries to make little mods, and I help him out when I can by email, since he lives on the other side of the Equator. No matter how much he wants to "put in the effort" it's not possible, because he has brain damage that affects his learning and memory skills.

 

Until just recently I had to deal with an old six year old system, so no matter what kind of mod I wanted to make it just was not going to happen with such low resources. Except for a few pet companions, a couple of races and some save games, world building was out of the question.

 

There aren't that many people who are experts at scripting, modeling and texture artists etc who are free to work on other projects besides their own. Then there are real life responsibilities as well. You also have to get along with the other people on a team to some extent and that alone could make or break a mod. I have experience there as well and I for one won't be joining another team project. Even if it was a team of two.

 

The reality is some things are out of our control, so saying you can do anything if you put your mind to it is just a sweeping unrealistic statement. Wishing doesn't make it happen if walls are put in your way.

 

I've made some small mods that I'm mostly happy with and have pleased some people. I've taught myself to use the CS in the last few months, with a little help from the Wiki and occasionally the good people at the Official CS forums. I've also been able to help several people out with problems they've been having because of it.

 

That said, there are many limitations to this game engine. Correct me if I'm wrong, but unless things have changed very recently, flowing hair and robes with physics is impossible. A start was made on the robes and curtains etc but I haven't seen that mod progress any further. There could be any number of reasons for that, like time constraints, difficulty, who knows, but the author made a good start.

 

Removing Oblivion Gates from the landscape is difficult if not impossible due to the hard coded sounds and SFX. Creatures using dialogue is not easy, but can be done I believe with a little wizardry and invisible NPC's doing the talking.

 

Plus other things like adding permanent shaders to characters or using a scripted spell to do it. It only works to a point, and I've asked on the Beth CS forums for solutions, but the consensus seems to be it's hard coded. For example creating a spell to make the player or companion a ghost works, until you use a door or fast travel. Then it never works again. Sometimes reloading will reset it, but not always.

 

After all vanilla ghosts and other creatures like Flame Atronachs have no need to use doors or quick travel. I was given a script that should have reset the effect on entering or leaving cells, but it didn't work.

 

Which is related to a new problem I have. Just recently I released a small dragon companion using Saiden Storm's Akatosh Mount.

I unpacked the Sounds BSA and renamed the Akastosh sounds with new IDs and no matter what I do they will not play in game. I have edited them to be softer in Goldwave (Audio Editor), used custom wave clips from free sites, and even used other creature sounds.

 

Because Akatosh features in the Main Quest I believe his sounds are also hard coded and cannot be changed. The custom sounds I created play perfectly fine in the CS, but in game it plays the default dragon's annoying wing flapping and thumping foot sounds and nothing else, except the battle cry. I tried using Daedroth sounds, but they are just ridiculous for a baby dragon.

My next step is to ask on the Bethsoft forums but I don't hold out much hope.

 

Anyway, much more can obviously be accomplished with the Oblivion game engine as can be seen since OBSE came along. But the reality is the engine has limits that can't be overcome without re-engineering it.

Perhaps the perfect dream mod can be made with the TES V engine, the tools to do it and some willingness to learn how.

[SickleYield]

The point is that there are many 'experienced modders' out there who will tell you to curb your enthusiasm and be realistic.

 

I would never, not in a million years, try to discourage one ambitious person from doing all that he or she can take on. This is how things like Lost Spires and Heart of the Dead get made - by one person with energy, drive, and persistence.

 

Negative statements are most often made in response to posts that go like this:

 

SEEKING EXPERIENCED MODDERS FOR HUGE PROJECT!

 

i need five modelers/texturers and someone who can script for a total conversion based on GTA IV also someone has to tell me how we can get the guns and cars to work!! this is going to be awesome!!

 

 

If it appears obvious that someone's starting out with no experience, no idea what they're getting into, and is asking basically to boss around people who have that experience, then yes, some of us are going to respond negatively to that.