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Religious Debates Are Banned


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#11
andrus

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sorry i didnt mean to make a religios view i watch my typing from now on.
with minds like these im never gonna put one past lol :D

#12
hundinman

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i am sure that a big part of this is the many flame wars i had with my good buddy peregrine. we went a lil to far in many of our deates. we even went as far as to put each others threads in our signatures so everyone would see them and embarass each other. i loved those days.

#13
VladimIr V Y

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Hm. I think western society is getting way too touchy. You can't discuss this, and that, and that...

As you can understand, that the problems will not solve themselfs, just if you stop discussing them. The tensions will rise, and some day there will be huge problems. Actually - by banning all discussions you just state that there are huge problems.

#14
Ancalagon

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Sorry for the thread necro D0ne.

In reality, banning the religious discussion thread is for the best because it's preventing flame wars of massive scale. It isn't ignoring the problem as much as it is just refraining from talking about it in order to maintain civility. Vlad, you are right that when we Ban it that we are stating that there are huge problems. In the past any time we would open up a religious debate or something somewhat related, the thread would get hi-jacked by people who were not open minded at all and therefore contributed nothing to the debate save for being a lightning rod. All civil tones and manners would be dropped and the thread would ALWAYS get locked because the debate would descend into petty name calling and go nowhere.

Again, they're not ignoring the problem by banning it. If you had actually read this thread and then looked at the religious debate threads that had been locked and led up to this decision, you would understand. And Western society isn't way too touchy, I'd gladly discuss religion (I'm atheist) with you if it weren't for the knowledge that some fundamentalist (from either side) would come along and ruin it for everyone. This is a done deal, and I highly doubt that it will be recinded in the near OR far future.

#15
Evangelion_2014

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So we can't exalt and praise Almsivi's holy name?

Outlander S'wits.

#16
Peregrine

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This rule needs to be changed. There's absolutely no reason to ban religious debates and only religious debates. Your justification that they cause flame wars is just silly, this forum has seen flame wars on everything from politics to video game consoles. I've used, almost word for word, the exact same insults in debates on other subjects. And yet none of those subjects have been banned, or even considered for a banning. There's no reason to give religion a special immunity to criticism, if this forum can't handle debates on religion, it can't handle debates on anything.

As counter-proof to your ban, my friends and I often discuss religion and related subjects. Our views cover a pretty broad range, including completely opposed and mutually exclusive beliefs. And yet your feared flame wars just don't happen, we're perfectly capable of arguing about the subject without anyone getting offended. In fact, I've even convinced at least one of them to completely reverse her beliefs from "devout and faithful christian" to "I can't find anything wrong with your atheist beliefs"... without any hurt feelings. And the book that did the convincing? The God Delusion, a book filled with at least as much hostility towards religion as anything I've ever written here (though I will concede, much better written).

Of course I'm taking the optimistic option here. I hope you're mature enough not to put a ban like this in place just because you disagree with my opinions. So why don't you prove it? If it's just purely about the flame wars, either remove the ban, or just delete the whole debates forum.

#17
Vagrant0

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I believe the main reason is because unlike the console flame wars are rather pointless as few people really identify as a nintendo purist, or such. Religion is part of how people identify themselves, just as you identify as being an athiest, with that comes anger and frustration when someone says something to challenge your own beliefs. You may not fall into this, but most of the world unfortunately does.

Add that to the fact that religious debates are essentially pointless since people will still believe what they want to believe, even when hard evidence is beating them over the head. As some people strongly identify themselves by their religion, when anything somes to question it, it only makes them get defensive. What that ammounts to is essentially two people shouting at opposite sides of a wall without any willingness to listen to the other. Religion isn't something that can be defined through evidence, it is about beliefs. As much as you may feel obligated to change those beliefs, people should be allowed to maintain their beliefs*. Debates about religion in a setting like this (internet aside) just don't solve anything, and only cause people to get upset. You may not care, but I cannot see allowing this to be a good thing. Most people simply aren't informed about their own religion or others for any honest, well meaning discussions to be viable here.

If you want a real discussion on religion, what on God's green earth makes you think a gaming forum is the place to do it? Yeah, can see trying to sidestep it any time evolution, philosophy or ethics comes into play... But seriously, how many people are there floating around here that can talk intelligently and unbiased about those things? Most of the members of this forum aren't even out of highschool, yet you expect them to be able to converse in matters that even college students can't get straight. As much entertainment you may have attacking the beliefs of others, which you can probably prove are wrong, it just wouldn't accomplish anything other than getting people angry.



*beliefs that violate basic human rights aren't covered by this, and people who maintain those beliefs should be either locked away or re-educated. There is no reasoning for this aside from wanting people to try and get along with eachother. If you're happy wih your religion and aren't causing pain to others, or killing those that don't also believe, that is fine with me.

#18
Malchik

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You are right, Vagrant0. Few people on this forum have a clue how to debate any issue and IMO that also includes Peregrine. A proper debate is never one person insulting another. It is the clear presentation of two sides of a case for the purposes of a third party group (an audience) to vote on. Formal debating calls for both sides to present different speakers for and against any motion. Each is given a short time to present their view and may take questions. They may, in some debates, be allowed the opportunity to rebut the points made by their opponents. Any attempts to insult would be dealt with by the Chairperson who has overall control.

You can have discussions among friends on far less formal lines but these are not 'debates' and a gaming forum is not a suitable medium for such discussions. MSN or equivalent perhaps.

Indeed I don't think it is possible to have any real debate in any environment that is not face to face. Too many subtleties and nuances of presentation are missed in the written word.

At the end of the day the best you get are a series of individual opinions. And whilst we may and almost certainly will disagree with some of those opinions (and can say so), we have no right to force people to change their views. There is a famous saying on the lines that 'while I totally disagree with everything you said, I would die to defend your right to say it'. (Something no longer believed in by western society.) It has to apply to belief as well. The fact that it doesn't causes untold grief throughout the world but this forum is not the place to discuss it.

BTW I have been an atheist for years. Peregrine is the only person I have ever met who has managed to make me think that I might be wrong.

#19
Peregrine

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I believe the main reason is because unlike the console flame wars are rather pointless as few people really identify as a nintendo purist, or such. Religion is part of how people identify themselves, just as you identify as being an athiest, with that comes anger and frustration when someone says something to challenge your own beliefs. You may not fall into this, but most of the world unfortunately does.


The exact same thing can be said of politics. Many people identify themselves by their political party and beliefs. But not only are political debates allowed, insulting people over politics is allowed. Recently there was a thread titled "George Bush - Mock him here!", posted with full admin approval. A thread with no purpose other than insulting Bush, and by extension, the millions of people who respect him. Why should it be any different if I made a thread titled "Jesus - Mock him here!"?

If you want a real discussion on religion, what on God's green earth makes you think a gaming forum is the place to do it? Yeah, can see trying to sidestep it any time evolution, philosophy or ethics comes into play... But seriously, how many people are there floating around here that can talk intelligently and unbiased about those things? Most of the members of this forum aren't even out of highschool, yet you expect them to be able to converse in matters that even college students can't get straight. As much entertainment you may have attacking the beliefs of others, which you can probably prove are wrong, it just wouldn't accomplish anything other than getting people angry.



Because not only do I enjoy proving people wrong, but it's just silly that we have to avoid one of the fundamental driving forces in our culture, even when it's directly related to the issue. And the exact same thing is true of politics, why should we expect them to be able to converse in matters that even college students can't get straight?

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You are right, Vagrant0. Few people on this forum have a clue how to debate any issue and IMO that also includes Peregrine. A proper debate is never one person insulting another. It is the clear presentation of two sides of a case for the purposes of a third party group (an audience) to vote on. Formal debating calls for both sides to present different speakers for and against any motion. Each is given a short time to present their view and may take questions. They may, in some debates, be allowed the opportunity to rebut the points made by their opponents. Any attempts to insult would be dealt with by the Chairperson who has overall control.


I know perfectly well how formal debates work. A formal debate has a moderator that keeps people from using poor logic and simply re-stating the same argument while ignoring any counter-argument. In the case of forum debates, the only choice is self-moderating... my prefered method just happens to be lots of profanity directed at people who refuse to listen when I correct them on factual questions.

You can have discussions among friends on far less formal lines but these are not 'debates' and a gaming forum is not a suitable medium for such discussions. MSN or equivalent perhaps.

Indeed I don't think it is possible to have any real debate in any environment that is not face to face. Too many subtleties and nuances of presentation are missed in the written word.

At the end of the day the best you get are a series of individual opinions. And whilst we may and almost certainly will disagree with some of those opinions (and can say so), we have no right to force people to change their views. There is a famous saying on the lines that 'while I totally disagree with everything you said, I would die to defend your right to say it'. (Something no longer believed in by western society.) It has to apply to belief as well. The fact that it doesn't causes untold grief throughout the world but this forum is not the place to discuss it.


Then remove the debate forum. If it's so hopeless, why do we even have a debate forum? There is no difference between a debate on religion and a debate on politics or any other subject. If it's completely hopeless to attempt one, it's completely hopeless to attempt anything more significant than "what kind of pie is best?".

BTW I have been an atheist for years. Peregrine is the only person I have ever met who has managed to make me think that I might be wrong.


Textbook ad hominem argument. Come on Malchik, I thought you were smarter than that... the fact that I'm arrogant and have no patience for idiots has nothing to do with the fact that I'm also right. Which, by the way, is an entirely justified statement.... it's a fair bet I know more than 99% of this forum about science and philosophy, admins included.

#20
Malchik

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Whether you are right or wrong, you believe you know so much more than anyone else. It makes it impossible to debate with you because you are not prepared to accept you may be wrong. Others must be wrong because, perforce, they are less knowledgeable and less intelligent than you are. This assertion is as illogical as anything anyone else can say on any issue. It predisposes me to doubt your arguments before I have even looked at them. However I am too old and wise to actually fall into that trap.

But on the question of debates I agree. We do not have debates. We have opportunities for people to give their opinions which is the best a forum can do. We could call it a discussion forum instead but that is just semantics. But do you think I really take any notice of what a fourteen year old member of the church of christ homophobe Virginia has to say or a twenty something year old from the church of proselytising atheism come to that? You can work out the answer yourself.




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