Boomers/BoS/Desert Rangers expanded

[devinpatterson]

you are wrong friend it is lore. the maps they use are inaccurate they have no way of actually knowing their boarders aside from big land marks.

They use the same boarders in lore/the fallout world, as our world. This is what you said;

 

you are not using fallout facts, your using real life facts. for example in the fallout universe the states exact shapes are not at all the same.

Here is a pic of the fallout universe's states (from the wiki)

 

 

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100501182149/fallout/images/d/df/Fo_Four_States_Commonwealth.gif

 

 

 

Notice the boarders of the state are exactly the same as ours? Pretty straight forward.

 

you said im incorrect then copied what i said... im confused.

Yep to show your assertion and my response, which I'll list again below;

 

Incorrect as well, the courier or House would own a tiny fraction of the Mojave, specifically NV and a small amount of the surrounding area, by far a minority of the Mojave (most of which is in CA).

For instance in a House faction ending, the portions of the Mojave owned are listed in the order of withdrawal (New Vegas, Hoover Dam, McCarran International Airport, HELIOS One, and the El Dorado substation), he does not own the whole Mojave (whether the in game Mojave or the larger whole).

 

so? that doesn't mean they cared for those lands.

I'm not making the argument they do or they don't, that's your pitch. I'm making the argument they don't want to *die*. That's legion occupied territory. That was the whole point of joining the NCR, as things weren't going well against the legion for the desert rangers in their homeland.

 

I'v posted this before, Dangman has posted this before, you continue to miss it or ignore it....this will be at least the third time. I can explain it to you but I can't make you understand it.

 

i dont think you realize that 10 years doesnt beat several generations.

Several generations ago they were in Texas.

 

we're talking about Desert Rangers, please stay on topic.

Ummm you don't know that many of hte Veteran rangers are former desert rangers? It's really simple, but I'll walk you through it again, because not only is it on topic, it's a key point. I posted;

 

They are members of the NCR army. From the wiki "The NCR Veteran Rangers are elite Rangers in the NCR Army." Some of the veteran rangers were former nevada rangers, some of the veteran rangers were former NCR rangers. No distinction is made between them, no one has a get out of service free card.

1. Many of the Veteran rangers were former desert rangers. 2. The Veteran rangers are part of the NCR army. 3. The Desert rangers are part of the NCR army. Pretty straight forward.

 

the wiki (http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Portal:Fallout:_New_Vegas) and what is in the game itself.

Yep same wiki.

 

did you listen to everybody in game who talked about the treaty? they said the reasons why the treaty were signed and if the NCR loses than they broke the treaty and the Desert Rangers are free to go... im looking at this from a legal standing, that is how treaties work. heres my proof:

Everybody? That's from Chief Hanlon, he is "the head of the NCR Rangers and is one of its longest serving members." The proof is that they are part of the NCR army, in addition there is not contingency clause that this only applies as long as the NCR doesn't suffer a defeat. Your "proof" clearly states "absorbed", not a temporary alliance, unless the NCR looses. It's why we've been quoting it. From the merriam-webster dictionary Absorb "1 : to take in and make part of an existent whole"

 

still wouldn't be deserting. anyways we are talking about the Courier taking over, and odds are he'd be fine with them staying.

Of course it would, they are active military. Desertion; "the act of leaving military service or duty without the intention of returning."

 

we have to remember whos wanting this guys.

Right and wouldn't that mean it the lore would be a fundamental aspect of the mod?

[DylanF1]

With the Desert Rangers in my opinion, I would think that not all of them would agree to be absorbed into the NCR. I would think that the ones who did not agree, would make a small splinter faction with the same name of Desert Rangers, who would still be wandering the wastes and protecting it's citizens in outer vegas from fiends, raiders, vipers, jackyls and such. To the NCR they would be vigilantes, or deserters. So the NCR would be on the lookout for them,and most likely try to hunt them down. Meaning the Desert Rangers only show them selves at night.

[devinpatterson]

With the Desert Rangers in my opinion, I would think that not all of them would agree to be absorbed into the NCR. I would think that the ones who did not agree, would make a small splinter faction with the same name of Desert Rangers, who would still be wandering the wastes and protecting it's citizens in outer vegas from fiends, raiders, vipers, jackyls and such.

I think there were some that wouldn't join the treaty too. I don't know if or how many would be left (things weren't going well for them, and a small group/s or a few individuals would probably be even more at risk) though.

 

To the NCR they would be vigilantes, or deserters. So the NCR would be on the lookout for them,and most likely try to hunt them down. Meaning the Desert Rangers only show them selves at night.

I don't think the NCR would hunt them, they'r not part of hte NCR, so they aren't deserters. I think it's more likely the two factions would work together since they have a common enemy (Legion) and their former comrades are in the NCR.

[DylanF1]

 

With the Desert Rangers in my opinion, I would think that not all of them would agree to be absorbed into the NCR. I would think that the ones who did not agree, would make a small splinter faction with the same name of Desert Rangers, who would still be wandering the wastes and protecting it's citizens in outer vegas from fiends, raiders, vipers, jackyls and such.

I think there were some that wouldn't join the treaty too. I don't know if or how many would be left (things weren't going well for them, and a small group/s or a few individuals would probably be even more at risk) though.

 

To the NCR they would be vigilantes, or deserters. So the NCR would be on the lookout for them,and most likely try to hunt them down. Meaning the Desert Rangers only show them selves at night.

I don't think the NCR would hunt them, they'r not part of hte NCR, so they aren't deserters. I think it's more likely the two factions would work together since they have a common enemy (Legion) and their former comrades are in the NCR.

 

I could see your point. I was just thinking like they weren't deserters, but they were unwanted, or unneeded, so the NCR saw them as a nuisance. But I mean they would be needed where the NCR is not protecting the citizens, like Outer Vegas.

[DoctorKaizeld]

 

Here is a pic of the fallout universe's states (from the wiki)

Spoiler

 

Notice the boarders of the state are exactly the same as ours? Pretty straight forward.

you missed my point completely but whatever.

 

 

Yep to show your assertion and my response, which I'll list again below;

 

For instance in a House faction ending, the portions of the Mojave owned are listed in the order of withdrawal (New Vegas, Hoover Dam, McCarran International Airport, HELIOS One, and the El Dorado substation), he does not own the whole Mojave (whether the in game Mojave or the larger whole).

again thats what i said... you need to realize we're on the same page on this topic and drop it.

 

 

I'm not making the argument they do or they don't, that's your pitch. I'm making the argument they don't want to *die*. That's legion occupied territory. That was the whole point of joining the NCR, as things weren't going well against the legion for the desert rangers in their homeland.

 

I'v posted this before, Dangman has posted this before, you continue to miss it or ignore it....this will be at least the third time. I can explain it to you but I can't make you understand it.

im missing a point? the Courier took over and the OP has stated that his Courier would let them stay and would work with them. so why would the Legion pick a fight with the Courier again and kill the Rangers? the Rangers have his backing plus they have the Dam and any allies the Courier also chooses to bring in on the deal, such as his robot army (in the case of the OP he doesnt have one).

 

 

Several generations ago they were in Texas.

i know, we're talking about the Nevada Rangers not their ancestors from Texas.

 

 

 

Ummm you don't know that many of hte Veteran rangers are former desert rangers? It's really simple, but I'll walk you through it again, because not only is it on topic, it's a key point. I posted;

most are not Desert Rangers, most are newer NCR Rangers who were trained by the Desert Rangers. to avoid confusion lets refer to them with their appropriate names.

 

 

Yep same wiki.

good now we know our sources.

 

 

Everybody? That's from Chief Hanlon, he is "the head of the NCR Rangers and is one of its longest serving members." The proof is that they are part of the NCR army, in addition there is not contingency clause that this only applies as long as the NCR doesn't suffer a defeat. Your "proof" clearly states "absorbed", not a temporary alliance, unless the NCR looses. It's why we've been quoting it. From the merriam-webster dictionary Absorb "1 : to take in and make part of an existent whole"

Chief Hanlon wasnt a Desert Ranger he was just an NCR Ranger from Redding.

 

 

Of course it would, they are active military. Desertion; "the act of leaving military service or duty without the intention of returning."

still not deserting. they can resign and the treaty was broken. they can leave if they want to. and no one here besides you has stated they can just walk away. i guess you keep forgetting the whole resign from the military part.

 

Right and wouldn't that mean it the lore would be a fundamental aspect of the mod?

yes of course, thats what we're discussing.

[Degby1]

People it's as simple as this, as soon as the NCR have been kicked out, the Courier will go on a recruitment mission to track down and hire/convince/emontially blackmail the REAL Desert Rangers into staying. How this will happen, well there will be a mission where you have to go Camp Golf and steal the DR roster. From there you go the DR's and recruitment them, dependent on speech/barter/strength/terryfing presence skills and perks etc.

 

Some will be easier to convince than others for example a DR could be more attached to the Nevada region and not want to leave, easy hire. Another is still attached to Nevada, but also attached to his NCR pension and retirement home in Redding - he will be harder to convince but with a speech/barter skill it can be done. A certain group of DR's want to defect from the NCR but they also want to attack the Courier for f*cking their sh^t up, so you will need to tell them to pipe down with strength/guns/explosives/terryfing prescene skills and perks. Others will be so up the NCR's a^se that they will take a considerable amount of convincing.

 

I dunno about what you lot did in your playthroughs but I destroyed the Securitron army, humans can be reasoned/bargained with or intimidated, securitrons can be hacked remotely. Having the securitron army at the end of the main storyline would have implications into the Desert Rangers staying also, and where they would be deployed.

 

The biggest debate should be on how the Desert Rangers would work with both the Boomers and the BoS and happens after that. I'm sure the NCR will still feel like they've been mugged off and want to retailate, whereas new groups may want to try and muscle in on Nevada, particually the Strip!

[DoctorKaizeld]

 

People it's as simple as this, as soon as the NCR have been kicked out, the Courier will go on a recruitment mission to track down and hire/convince/emontially blackmail the REAL Desert Rangers into staying. How this will happen, well there will be a mission where you have to go Camp Golf and steal the DR roster. From there you go the DR's and recruitment them, dependent on speech/barter/strength/terryfing presence skills and perks etc.

 

Some will be easier to convince than others for example a DR could be more attached to the Nevada region and not want to leave, easy hire. Another is still attached to Nevada, but also attached to his NCR pension and retirement home in Redding - he will be harder to convince but with a speech/barter skill it can be done. A certain group of DR's want to defect from the NCR but they also want to attack the Courier for f*cking their sh^t up, so you will need to tell them to pipe down with strength/guns/explosives/terryfing prescene skills and perks. Others will be so up the NCR's a^se that they will take a considerable amount of convincing.

 

I dunno about what you lot did in your playthroughs but I destroyed the Securitron army, humans can be reasoned/bargained with or intimidated, securitrons can be hacked remotely. Having the securitron army at the end of the main storyline would have implications into the Desert Rangers staying also, and where they would be deployed.

 

The biggest debate should be on how the Desert Rangers would work with both the Boomers and the BoS and happens after that. I'm sure the NCR will still feel like they've been mugged off and want to retailate, whereas new groups may want to try and muscle in on Nevada, particually the Strip!

seems reasonable to me

[dangman4ever]

People it's as simple as this, as soon as the NCR have been kicked out, the Courier will go on a recruitment mission to track down and hire/convince/emontially blackmail the REAL Desert Rangers into staying. How this will happen, well there will be a mission where you have to go Camp Golf and steal the DR roster. From there you go the DR's and recruitment them, dependent on speech/barter/strength/terryfing presence skills and perks etc.

 

Some will be easier to convince than others for example a DR could be more attached to the Nevada region and not want to leave, easy hire. Another is still attached to Nevada, but also attached to his NCR pension and retirement home in Redding - he will be harder to convince but with a speech/barter skill it can be done. A certain group of DR's want to defect from the NCR but they also want to attack the Courier for f*cking their sh^t up, so you will need to tell them to pipe down with strength/guns/explosives/terryfing prescene skills and perks. Others will be so up the NCR's a^se that they will take a considerable amount of convincing.

 

I dunno about what you lot did in your playthroughs but I destroyed the Securitron army, humans can be reasoned/bargained with or intimidated, securitrons can be hacked remotely. Having the securitron army at the end of the main storyline would have implications into the Desert Rangers staying also, and where they would be deployed.

 

The biggest debate should be on how the Desert Rangers would work with both the Boomers and the BoS and happens after that. I'm sure the NCR will still feel like they've been mugged off and want to retailate, whereas new groups may want to try and muscle in on Nevada, particually the Strip!

Why would the Courier go through so much effort to track down and recruit the Desert Rangers? Also any method that involves blackmailing, threats, and any form of against one's will to recruit is kind of f*#@ed up as it means that those particular Desert Rangers recruited in that method may not end up fighting all that well. If someone blackmailed you to join the U.S Army, are you honestly going to try to be the best member of the U.S Army possible? Would you not harbor resentment in the way you were recruited?

 

Plus you still have to develop valid reasons for the Desert Rangers to keep continuing to risk their lives for a region while they're now a lot older and now have families.

 

In my playthroughs, I usually side with NCR but in the few Independence playthroughs, I upgraded the Securitron army. I don't think this is an either/or type situation where you can only have a human army or a Securitron army. Why not a combination of both? Humans require constant logistics to be kept alive, requires months of training to become actual soldiers (if you actually want an effective militia), requires you to fund their armor, weapons, and ammo purchases, have families, their morale can be broken, requires strong leadership on and off the battlefield, and there's going to be more Securitrons than humans. So there's just as many cons to an all human army as well.

 

The BoS are not going to work well with the Boomers on account of the fact that BoS wants to horde technology whereas the Boomers have the technology and aren't going to give it up. In addition, the BoS are rather too few in number (around 100 IIRC) to dramatically affect the safety of the various roads and settlements in the Mojave.

[Degby1]

 

People it's as simple as this, as soon as the NCR have been kicked out, the Courier will go on a recruitment mission to track down and hire/convince/emontially blackmail the REAL Desert Rangers into staying. How this will happen, well there will be a mission where you have to go Camp Golf and steal the DR roster. From there you go the DR's and recruitment them, dependent on speech/barter/strength/terryfing presence skills and perks etc.

 

Some will be easier to convince than others for example a DR could be more attached to the Nevada region and not want to leave, easy hire. Another is still attached to Nevada, but also attached to his NCR pension and retirement home in Redding - he will be harder to convince but with a speech/barter skill it can be done. A certain group of DR's want to defect from the NCR but they also want to attack the Courier for f*cking their sh^t up, so you will need to tell them to pipe down with strength/guns/explosives/terryfing prescene skills and perks. Others will be so up the NCR's a^se that they will take a considerable amount of convincing.

 

I dunno about what you lot did in your playthroughs but I destroyed the Securitron army, humans can be reasoned/bargained with or intimidated, securitrons can be hacked remotely. Having the securitron army at the end of the main storyline would have implications into the Desert Rangers staying also, and where they would be deployed.

 

The biggest debate should be on how the Desert Rangers would work with both the Boomers and the BoS and happens after that. I'm sure the NCR will still feel like they've been mugged off and want to retailate, whereas new groups may want to try and muscle in on Nevada, particually the Strip!

Why would the Courier go through so much effort to track down and recruit the Desert Rangers? Also any method that involves blackmailing, threats, and any form of against one's will to recruit is kind of f***ed up as it means that those particular Desert Rangers recruited in that method may not end up fighting all that well. If someone blackmailed you to join the U.S Army, are you honestly going to try to be the best member of the U.S Army possible? Would you not harbor resentment in the way you were recruited?

 

Plus you still have to develop valid reasons for the Desert Rangers to keep continuing to risk their lives for a region while they're now a lot older and now have families.

 

In my playthroughs, I usually side with NCR but in the few Independence playthroughs, I upgraded the Securitron army. I don't think this is an either/or type situation where you can only have a human army or a Securitron army. Why not a combination of both? Humans require constant logistics to be kept alive, requires months of training to become actual soldiers (if you actually want an effective militia), requires you to fund their armor, weapons, and ammo purchases, have families, their morale can be broken, requires strong leadership on and off the battlefield, and there's going to be more Securitrons than humans. So there's just as many cons to an all human army as well.

 

The BoS are not going to work well with the Boomers on account of the fact that BoS wants to horde technology whereas the Boomers have the technology and aren't going to give it up. In addition, the BoS are rather too few in number (around 100 IIRC) to dramatically affect the safety of the various roads and settlements in the Mojave.

 

Well why wouldnt he? The Desert Rangers are combat tested, know the area, all round tough and unlike the Securitron Army, follow a chain of command which i'll get into later. The whole being forced in the U.S Army is bit of a moot point, there is conscription in the real world, U.S did it during the Vietnam war and China continues to do it today as do many other European countries. The whole idea of having them protect the Mojave is that they would want to protect their homes and families as opposed to letting some wet behind the ears farmer kid like the NCR do it. Plus my Courier like many others arent squeeky clean in terms of karma and blackmailing someone who's out to get them and have them work for you isnt beyond most peoples moral standards.

 

My beef with the Securitrons is that Yes Man can give orders and upgrade them, whilst Yes Man can be hacked into by any 2 bit hacker. The way he "helped" the Courier raises red flags for me, if anything i'd rather have a small number of robot soliders to patrol the Strip and if anything goes wrong with them then, it aint like your gonna have to carpet bomb them to deal with them. However ur right in that wouldnt be a human or robot security force, but there would be a couple of characters who have their doubts, maybe a high speech/barter/strength check would smooth things over again.

 

Besides this would be a team effort between the DR's, BoS and Boomers. The Khans could be included too, given that they helped defend the dam as could the BoS. Plus the BoS have power armour and energy weapons and the Courier is a member (in my playthrough atleast) and also helped defend the Dam so why not involve them in a defense force. The Boomers provided air support and have an emmense amount of respect for the Courier aswell so some impartial mediation could be used to get the three groups to team up again, as could the Great Khans.

 

As for funding, I wiped out the White Gloves so I got dibs on their casino , I now own the Lucky 38 and reactivated it, robbed the Sierra Madre, looted both The Big MT and Divide, and reactiavted the Bison Steve casino aswell. Theres not even a word for how much money my character has still need to count it all.

[devinpatterson]

you missed my point completely but whatever.

You said;

 

your using real life facts. for example in the fallout universe the states exact shapes are not at all the same.

 

 

That's not the case, they do use the same state boundaries, and it is important/pertinent.....you'll see why below.

 

again thats what i said... you need to realize we're on the same page on this topic and drop it.

 

If you understand the courier owns a minority portion of the in game world, which is in itself a fraction of Nevada.

 

 

im missing a point? the Courier took over and the OP has stated that his Courier would let them stay and would work with them. so why would the Legion pick a fight with the Courier again and kill the Rangers? the Rangers have his backing plus they have the Dam and any allies the Courier also chooses to bring in on the deal, such as his robot army (in the case of the OP he doesnt have one).

 

Yes, your missing the point that I and Dangman have presented over and over, to you. The courier doesn't control Nevada, he can't make the land (that you claim the desert rangers will never leave), safe for them. The reason they joined the NCR is because of the Legion and it was going bad for them 10 years ago.....how much worse is it now? Your claim that they would desert (and yest it deserting, see below), because they would never leave their homeland has been; 1. untrue for over 10 years, 2. is nonsensical in light of the legion presence and 3. not backed up by any shred of evidence in lore.

 

They are having a rough go of it in Nevada with a super power (the NCR has nearly 3/4 of a million) and one of the two most powerful militaries on the west coast, but somehow jumping on board with a courier that owns a tiny fraction of Nevada seems like a far more sensible course? Really?

 

All the problems that caused them to abandon their homeland is still there, but now it's far worse.

 

Maybe a visual aid will help. The area in green is the area the Courier would control in and independent ending or a House ending.

 

PIC;

 

 

http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u404/devinlpatterson/Nevada_zps74a6b7f9.jpg

 

 

 

i know, we're talking about the Nevada Rangers not their ancestors from Texas.

Right and you claimed they would never leave their homeland (even though they have been away for as long as 10 years), if that was the case they'd still be in Texas where they started out. They aren't going back to their homelands until the Legion is defeated or greatly reduced, it's why they joined the NCR. If they would never leave their homeland, they'd be dead already.

 

most are not Desert Rangers, most are newer NCR Rangers who were trained by the Desert Rangers. to avoid confusion lets refer to them with their appropriate names.

No. Seriously dude, you have to know the definition of Veteran. "experienced soldier: a long-serving member of the military who has had much active service" They are not newer rangers, they are Veterans, hence the name "Veteran Rangers". And yes many of them are desert rangers.

 

Chief Hanlon wasnt a Desert Ranger he was just an NCR Ranger from Redding.

Right since he came from Redding and he's just an NCR ranger he couldn't possibly know what the treaty means. I mean just because he's chief of all the rangers & one of the oldest serving rangers (if not the oldest), he wouldn't have any idea why or how, many of the men that serve directly under him came into service :rolleyes:

 

still not deserting. they can resign and the treaty was broken. they can leave if they want to. and no one here besides you has stated they can just walk away. i guess you keep forgetting the whole resign from the military part.

Dude seriously, do you know anything about the military? They can resign during an active tour of duty? In a conscription army? During wartime? Do you want to think that statement of yours over again?

 

It's great that they can leave, now all those poor NCR troops that thought they were stuck in the Mojave can just go home. It's got to be a huge relief.

 

Look you'v made a little bit of progress. At least now you understand they are NCR military (otherwise you wouldn't have stated they could retire), but you really need to think some of these things through.

 

And while your at it, please show us the contingency clause in the treaty that you keep claiming. Don't see anything about it being contingent on victory or defeat. And that's *if* they wanted to leave. It's pretty obvious that the best chance to defeat the legion lies with the NCR.