If the BOS wins, is the NCR in trouble?

[cyberpunker1088]

 

The NCR has an actual monetary system and draws on an economy based on agriculture and industry. Their technology is not THAT far behind the BOS, look at their elite rangers and Archimedes. They now have the Hoover Dam as well.

where does it say the ncr won?

 

 

Pretty safe assumption given BoS still there and no mention of NCR losing or Independent Vegas. Plus NCR still has the advantage without Hoover Dam or Archimedes. Their economy and industry just way better.

Edited June 18, 2016 by cyberpunker1088

[RattleAndGrind]

I am not sure that the BoS will ever rise to power anywhere. I fear that the BoS is its own worst enemy.

 

One concern is that the BoS may begin to doubt and distrust itself. The discovery that Danse is a synth proves to the BoS that their Codex inspired sanction against outside recruitment is valid. Such a validation of the Codex could cause the BoS to close in upon itself. Closing its doors coupled with the distrust of those not "born" BoS could cause the BoS to begin to implode.

 

The abandonment of the Codex by Elder Lyons will also grind on the BoS. His overreaching efforts to aid and assist the people in the Capital Wasteland split the BoS into competing factions. Such a in-house coup could cause the BoS to question the soundness of its leaders and how the are elevated.

 

And the implications of Sarah Lyons being "killed in combat" shortly after her fathers death and the string of "ineffectual" Elders following Lyons are ominous. All that sounds like a struggle for the throne which ended when Maxson was elevated to Elder. That implies that Maxson may have conspired with others to take control of the East Coast BoS and may have twisted the Codex to fulfill his aspirations. Such actions could cause further distrust of its leaders and erode the strength of will in the East Coast BoS.

 

I also do not see Maxson submitting to the West Coast BoS leadership. He is too arrogant and self righteous to admit that anyone but he is fit to lead the BoS. Such an attitude would do more to split the BoS than did Lyons' efforts to assist the inhabitants of the Capitol Wasteland.

 

So I do not hold out much hope that the BoS will rise again. Liberty Prime, the Prydwen, vertibirds, power armor and energy weapons are all tools and tools are not what makes you powerful. Intelligent leadership, strength of will, cohesive units, willing troops and the appropriate use of your tools is what make you powerful. An organization plagued with in-fighting, doubt, distrust, fear and a almost religious reliance on the Codex is hard pressed of meeting these criteria.

 

Finally, the BoS are not the most powerful technophyles on the block. It has been demonstrated several times that the Enclave outstrips the BoS in its technology and in the exploitation of that technology, Should the BoS attempt to rise again, it has a old and power foe that is willing and capable of severely crippling the BoS. There is no doubt in my mind that should the BoS attempt to exercise control in the West , the Enclave would do everything possible to oppose them.

Edited June 18, 2016 by RattleAndGrind

[cyberpunker1088]

I think the Western BoS approved of Maxon's status as Elder; as far as we know the Enclave is dead.

Edited June 18, 2016 by cyberpunker1088

[RattleAndGrind]

I think the Western BoS approved of Maxon's status as Elder; as far as we know the Enclave is dead.

The Western BoS is not immune to rubber stamping a fait accompli. Especially for a decedent of Roger Maxson.

 

The Enclave made their way from Navarro to DC. Can anyone guarantee they have not established themselves in between? Chicago, Kansas City, Omaha, New Orleans, Helena, Pierre? And who can be sure they are not too far from Navarro. Seattle, Spokane, Boise, Portland?

 

We are speculating. It is supposed to be fun and based on reasonable guesses.

Edited June 18, 2016 by RattleAndGrind

[bLakZmOkeareOoouYyye]

They all kill each other for a while, then put aside their petty grievances since they all work for survival of human race. Therefore they shall form the imperium of man and head to space thanks to bos and enclave having preserved the technology

[kingwilfre16]

 

 

The NCR has an actual monetary system and draws on an economy based on agriculture and industry. Their technology is not THAT far behind the BOS, look at their elite rangers and Archimedes. They now have the Hoover Dam as well.

where does it say the ncr won?

 

Western BoS survived the Mojave war and managed to get into a position to break radio silence. So either the western BoS left New California to the point the NCR is no longer a threat or the peace treaty between the Mojave-NCR forces ended up being the end of the NCR-BoS war. The only two endings we can theorize as being canon is Independent or NCR since those are the only two where the Mojave BoS aren't exterminated.

 

Independent could mean the entirety of the BoS moved to the Mojave though I doubt that's likely or NCR control the Mojave with a treaty between the BoS.

 

Are you sure it isn't Lost Hills they gained contact with?

[CiderMuffin]

 

 

 

The NCR has an actual monetary system and draws on an economy based on agriculture and industry. Their technology is not THAT far behind the BOS, look at their elite rangers and Archimedes. They now have the Hoover Dam as well.

where does it say the ncr won?

 

Western BoS survived the Mojave war and managed to get into a position to break radio silence. So either the western BoS left New California to the point the NCR is no longer a threat or the peace treaty between the Mojave-NCR forces ended up being the end of the NCR-BoS war. The only two endings we can theorize as being canon is Independent or NCR since those are the only two where the Mojave BoS aren't exterminated.

 

Independent could mean the entirety of the BoS moved to the Mojave though I doubt that's likely or NCR control the Mojave with a treaty between the BoS.

 

Are you sure it isn't Lost Hills they gained contact with?

 

Lost Hills is literally in the middle of NCR-controlled New California. The NCR is the kind of country that has a system to detect radio transmissions.

 

I am not sure that the BoS will ever rise to power anywhere. I fear that the BoS is its own worst enemy.

 

One concern is that the BoS may begin to doubt and distrust itself. The discovery that Danse is a synth proves to the BoS that their Codex inspired sanction against outside recruitment is valid. Such a validation of the Codex could cause the BoS to close in upon itself. Closing its doors coupled with the distrust of those not "born" BoS could cause the BoS to begin to implode.

 

The abandonment of the Codex by Elder Lyons will also grind on the BoS. His overreaching efforts to aid and assist the people in the Capital Wasteland split the BoS into competing factions. Such a in-house coup could cause the BoS to question the soundness of its leaders and how the are elevated.

 

And the implications of Sarah Lyons being "killed in combat" shortly after her fathers death and the string of "ineffectual" Elders following Lyons are ominous. All that sounds like a struggle for the throne which ended when Maxson was elevated to Elder. That implies that Maxson may have conspired with others to take control of the East Coast BoS and may have twisted the Codex to fulfill his aspirations. Such actions could cause further distrust of its leaders and erode the strength of will in the East Coast BoS.

 

I also do not see Maxson submitting to the West Coast BoS leadership. He is too arrogant and self righteous to admit that anyone but he is fit to lead the BoS. Such an attitude would do more to split the BoS than did Lyons' efforts to assist the inhabitants of the Capitol Wasteland.

 

So I do not hold out much hope that the BoS will rise again. Liberty Prime, the Prydwen, vertibirds, power armor and energy weapons are all tools and tools are not what makes you powerful. Intelligent leadership, strength of will, cohesive units, willing troops and the appropriate use of your tools is what make you powerful. An organization plagued with in-fighting, doubt, distrust, fear and a almost religious reliance on the Codex is hard pressed of meeting these criteria.

 

Finally, the BoS are not the most powerful technophyles on the block. It has been demonstrated several times that the Enclave outstrips the BoS in its technology and in the exploitation of that technology, Should the BoS attempt to rise again, it has a old and power foe that is willing and capable of severely crippling the BoS. There is no doubt in my mind that should the BoS attempt to exercise control in the West , the Enclave would do everything possible to oppose them.

The "Sarah's death was planned!" garbage theory is something the fan community came up with because a lot of people didn't like Maxson nor the fact Maxson does a better job then Lyons. It's a bunch of tinfoil-hat conspiracy for the sake of conspiracy, it's Fallout's Denver Airport.

 

The BoS isn't plagued with in-fighting, the outcast schism was the only one and even then the BoS and outcasts didn't really fight each other and that was because Lyons stopped looking for tech, not because he wanted to help people and recruit people but because he stopped looking for tech. It's also a thing of the past because Maxson fixed the schism and the outcasts rejoined his chapter.

 

"Maxson submitting to west coast rule" isn't shown true but Maxson literally has no choice but to follow the West's orders because that's how the Brotherhood works, you listen to your superiors unless the request goes against the codex, then the leader must step down. We've seen this happen with the Mojave chapter, Maxson doesn't have 100% control over his own BoS chapter and he still respects the codex.

 

The Enclave is dead and lost to the BoS twice. Both at Navarro and in the capital wasteland where the remainder of their forces were destroyed, the Enclave is dead and buried, it has cease to be. Like do you even pay attention to the series' lore?

Edited June 18, 2016 by CiderMuffin

[AnvilOfWar]

I think a better question for Fallout lore is, "Do we even need the Brotherhood of Steel anymore?"

They, IMHO like the Enclave has been a recurring theme of Fallout's for several games already. The Enclave at least seems to be dead and buried, thankfully. Isn't it about time the Brotherhood did the same? Fallout is about the post apocalypse, I can't be the only person thinking that seeing new factions fighting over the scraps of the old world, or simply factions we haven't seen before would be more interesting. While playing Fallout 3 the idea behind the institute was one of the then new lore factions that Bethesda added, and something about the faction was different then players had already seen. Before Fallout 4 released, I had discussed my feelings with some friends and said that I hoped the Brotherhood -wouldn't- be making any kind of return, it's a faction we have seen plenty of times already, I'd have been much more interested in new power dynamics in a new area of "the wasteland", rather then feel the need to retread some part of past games yet again.

[CiderMuffin]

Brotherhood is iconic and we most likely won't see them ever going out. They're strong in the east coast with turning D.C. into a possible Ordenstaat, the Mid-western are supposedly still around because Caesar talks about capturing BoS members, they may be hiding out in Baja because the Veteran Rangers were there "looking for ghosts" as an NPC stated in New Vegas, Montana has a chapter and the BoS-NCR war may be over because the BoS broke radio silence when they contacted Maxson.

 

Who knows how many other chapters fled New California and settled in other regions outside of the NCR's control. They're the most wide-spread faction with the training and equipment to make more then a dent in anyone but the NCR due to the NCR having like, 700,000 people.

Edited June 19, 2016 by CiderMuffin

[RattleAndGrind]

 

 

 

 

The NCR has an actual monetary system and draws on an economy based on agriculture and industry. Their technology is not THAT far behind the BOS, look at their elite rangers and Archimedes. They now have the Hoover Dam as well.

where does it say the ncr won?

 

Western BoS survived the Mojave war and managed to get into a position to break radio silence. So either the western BoS left New California to the point the NCR is no longer a threat or the peace treaty between the Mojave-NCR forces ended up being the end of the NCR-BoS war. The only two endings we can theorize as being canon is Independent or NCR since those are the only two where the Mojave BoS aren't exterminated.

 

Independent could mean the entirety of the BoS moved to the Mojave though I doubt that's likely or NCR control the Mojave with a treaty between the BoS.

 

Are you sure it isn't Lost Hills they gained contact with?

 

Lost Hills is literally in the middle of NCR-controlled New California. The NCR is the kind of country that has a system to detect radio transmissions.

 

I am not sure that the BoS will ever rise to power anywhere. I fear that the BoS is its own worst enemy.

 

One concern is that the BoS may begin to doubt and distrust itself. The discovery that Danse is a synth proves to the BoS that their Codex inspired sanction against outside recruitment is valid. Such a validation of the Codex could cause the BoS to close in upon itself. Closing its doors coupled with the distrust of those not "born" BoS could cause the BoS to begin to implode.

 

The abandonment of the Codex by Elder Lyons will also grind on the BoS. His overreaching efforts to aid and assist the people in the Capital Wasteland split the BoS into competing factions. Such a in-house coup could cause the BoS to question the soundness of its leaders and how the are elevated.

 

And the implications of Sarah Lyons being "killed in combat" shortly after her fathers death and the string of "ineffectual" Elders following Lyons are ominous. All that sounds like a struggle for the throne which ended when Maxson was elevated to Elder. That implies that Maxson may have conspired with others to take control of the East Coast BoS and may have twisted the Codex to fulfill his aspirations. Such actions could cause further distrust of its leaders and erode the strength of will in the East Coast BoS.

 

I also do not see Maxson submitting to the West Coast BoS leadership. He is too arrogant and self righteous to admit that anyone but he is fit to lead the BoS. Such an attitude would do more to split the BoS than did Lyons' efforts to assist the inhabitants of the Capitol Wasteland.

 

So I do not hold out much hope that the BoS will rise again. Liberty Prime, the Prydwen, vertibirds, power armor and energy weapons are all tools and tools are not what makes you powerful. Intelligent leadership, strength of will, cohesive units, willing troops and the appropriate use of your tools is what make you powerful. An organization plagued with in-fighting, doubt, distrust, fear and a almost religious reliance on the Codex is hard pressed of meeting these criteria.

 

Finally, the BoS are not the most powerful technophyles on the block. It has been demonstrated several times that the Enclave outstrips the BoS in its technology and in the exploitation of that technology, Should the BoS attempt to rise again, it has a old and power foe that is willing and capable of severely crippling the BoS. There is no doubt in my mind that should the BoS attempt to exercise control in the West , the Enclave would do everything possible to oppose them.

The "Sarah's death was planned!" garbage theory is something the fan community came up with because a lot of people didn't like Maxson nor the fact Maxson does a better job then Lyons. It's a bunch of tinfoil-hat conspiracy for the sake of conspiracy, it's Fallout's Denver Airport.

 

The BoS isn't plagued with in-fighting, the outcast schism was the only one and even then the BoS and outcasts didn't really fight each other and that was because Lyons stopped looking for tech, not because he wanted to help people and recruit people but because he stopped looking for tech. It's also a thing of the past because Maxson fixed the schism and the outcasts rejoined his chapter.

 

"Maxson submitting to west coast rule" isn't shown true but Maxson literally has no choice but to follow the West's orders because that's how the Brotherhood works, you listen to your superiors unless the request goes against the codex, then the leader must step down. We've seen this happen with the Mojave chapter, Maxson doesn't have 100% control over his own BoS chapter and he still respects the codex.

 

The Enclave is dead and lost to the BoS twice. Both at Navarro and in the capital wasteland where the remainder of their forces were destroyed, the Enclave is dead and buried, it has cease to be. Like do you even pay attention to the series' lore?

 

Ok, I will engage.

 

My speculation about Maxson's behavior is based on his description in the Fallout Wiki. In that document, two of Maxson's characteristics are "Diplomatic" and "Cowardly". It is not difficult to imagine that a cowardly diplomat could maneuver others into doing his dirty work and manipulate events behind the scenes to undermine and marginalize his perceived competition. Furthermore, that same document implies that Sarah's death may not be as presented by placing their description of her death in quotes: "killed in combat".

 

The schism that caused the BoS in the East to split was indeed because Lyons stopped collecting and preserving technology. But what did he do instead? He started helping the people of the DC area. First James and his team and later his son The Lone Wanderer. You say potato, I say tomato. The end result was the same.

 

And according to that same Wiki, Maxson did not immediately bring the Outcasts back into the fold but brokered a peace which allowed the Outcasts to return. The implication here is that Maxson did not want the Brotherhood Outcasts back and/or the Outcasts were not immediately enamored with Maxson and did not want to return. Whatever is the case, concessions had to be made by one or both sides before the Outcasts returned to the arms of the Brotherhood.

 

That same Wiki states that some of the Western BoS hold Maxson in an almost godlike status, simply because of his ancestry. Such flattery would appeal to a coward. Particularly one who perceives himself to be "the Savior of the Commonwealth". It is not difficult to imagine Maxson placing himself above the dictates of a group on the other side of the continent.

 

And I will repeat. The Enclave went from Navarro to the Capital Wasteland. I do not know what they did in between. Did they establish new areas of strength out of sight of the BoS? Did they discover some new and esoteric piece of technology which rivals Liberty Prime? Did they establish a center of power and recruit more people to their cause? Are they holed up in Iron Mountain? Neither you nor I know. I just give the Enclave enough sense to diversify their power and not put all their eggs in a single basket.

 

Such speculations are fun (or at least they are supposed to be). Imagination is allowed to ask "What if...?" and draw scenarios based on those imaginings. You do not have to agree. That is your privilege. You are allowed imaginings of our own.

 

But what you are not allowed to is belittle, insult or criticize. Such behavior is beneath us all.

Edited June 19, 2016 by RattleAndGrind