Static replacer mesh not replacing. [help needed]

[chucksteel]

That's true Ethreon but standard mesh replacers will not work in FO4 in the same way as they did in other games due to the Pre-combined meshes. The replacer will appear to work in the CKit but in game the Pre-Combined wins over the mesh replacer unless the Pre-Combined meshes for the cell have been disabled by making an edit to an object included in the Pre-Combined mesh itself.

[Impytus]

The problem is because of the Pre-Combined meshes to get your replacer to show you will need to edit the building itself. This will disable the Pre-combined for the cell and your new mesh will show.

 

Edit: just move any object in the cell that is included in the Pre-combined mesh create an "ITM" for your test and you'll see what I mean.

 

I'm sorry, I don't understand.

 

So i just move the object, and then what? i now have a red rocket roof that isnt on top of the building anymore?

 

Can you give a bit of a brief step by step on what i need to do?

 

I've tried a search on this but cant seem to find anything.

[chucksteel]

OK just do this,

 

1. move the Red Rocket Roof (doesn't matter how far)
2. Ctrl + z it back into it's original spot.
3. save and load the game.

Your mesh replacers should be working and showing properly in game. This is because by editing the roof you have disabled the Pre-combined meshes for the cell. Now I'm not advocating you just go around and create ITM's but this is a test for you to see what's happening and why it's happening.

 

Edit this is also assuming your mesh is working properly and shows in the Ckit.

 

Edit#2: if you want to send me the mesh replacer I will make a sample for you so you can look at it and see what's exactly the problem.

[VIitS]

OK just do this,

 

1. move the Red Rocket Roof (doesn't matter how far)
2. Ctrl + z it back into it's original spot.
3. save and load the game.

Your mesh replacers should be working and showing properly in game. This is because by editing the roof you have disabled the Pre-combined meshes for the cell. Now I'm not advocating you just go around and create ITM's but this is a test for you to see what's happening and why it's happening.

 

Edit this is also assuming your mesh is working properly and shows in the Ckit.

 

Edit#2: if you want to send me the mesh replacer I will make a sample for you so you can look at it and see what's exactly the problem.

A good example of what chucksteel means is the esp for my Repaired Red Rocket mod. I do the trick he mentions* on every cell containing a Red Rocket so it will show my fixed up mesh instead of the "damaged" vanilla one. Feel free to use the Worldspace section of my mod if you'd like, it contains the relevant cells for every single Red Rocket in the game. It probably includes a few extra your mod won't touch, since I fixed up the smaller versions of it as well. If you want your mesh edit to apply to all Red Rockets, make sure to edit RedRExtAll01.nif as well as RedRExt_Workshop01.nif (or RedRExt_Workshop02.nif, depending on what part of the building you messed with). You'll just need to add in the cell for the Nukaworld Red Rocket (if you want to include that one).

 

A better way to do it (with no identical-to-master ITM records), is to make some edits to the relevant Cell records directly. This can't be done in the CK, to the best of my knowledge (Bethesda doesn't like you to be able to mess with that sort of thing, as it would indicate their way isn't always the best way). You want to delete the VISI, RVIS, PCMB, and XCRI (and XPRI, where relevant) data from the cell record you want your changed mesh to show up in. If you want an example of what I mean, look at the Worldspace section of Scrap Everything. In addition to not leaving extra ITM records in, this will let your mod still work even if someone has the bUseCombinedObjects=0 ini edit, which disables the previs part of the workaround (not something that is likely to matter, since your mod isn't deleting/moving anything, but good to know regardless). I think chucksteel has actually had a few "bug reports" due to precisely that issue (previs remaining from scrapped/deleted objects previously in a combined mesh results in disappearing environment/objects).

 

Your mod will need to go at the end of the load order. Mods like Scrap Everything will work fine before or after your mod, as they make the same change to the cell and won't interfere with each other. Another mod that touches the same cell but without the edits (or without triggering the workaround) will cause the same issue you are seeing now.

 

 

*The reason it works is due to a workaround Bethesda implemented that disables precombined meshes and previs for any cell in which your mod touches a placed object that is part of a precombined mesh. That's why it is hard to find anything about it, since there is no official mention of it that I know of beyond some response posts from devs on their forums. I myself learned about it by trying to figure out how SpringCleaning.esm enabled full scrapping.

[chucksteel]

Just an FYI the only recurring bug I have is when I forget to set the "no Pre Vis" flag which is why some but not all have the occlusion issues. Other then that your 100% correct and I was trying to keep it simple to start with so the issue could be seen and understood.

 

Edit: another FYI I've also found that if you set the "No Pre Vis" Flag without making an edit to disable the Pre-combined meshes You will break sprinting in that area. I think it's a 3x3 grid that will have sprinting disabled. Haven't fully tested but it feels right from trying to figure the issue out.

[Impytus]

Thanks for the responces. I really appreciate it.

 

I've been having a bit of a play around with all this. Some of the terminology ive had to look up and some of it was still gibberish to me and made it hard to follow. I'm still having some difficulty understanding some stuff:

 

OK just do this,

 

1. move the Red Rocket Roof (doesn't matter how far)
2. Ctrl + z it back into it's original spot.
3. save and load the game.

Your mesh replacers should be working and showing properly in game. This is because by editing the roof you have disabled the Pre-combined meshes for the cell. Now I'm not advocating you just go around and create ITM's but this is a test for you to see what's happening and why it's happening.

 

Edit this is also assuming your mesh is working properly and shows in the Ckit.

 

Edit#2: if you want to send me the mesh replacer I will make a sample for you so you can look at it and see what's exactly the problem

 

I followed your instructions. It worked i can see the replacer has made the changes.

 

What I'm unsure of is, are you saying that its bad to have ITM's? and when you say this is a test to see whats happening, what do i do for it not to be a test, rather as something i will actually use?

 

(As for your offer. I'm actually just testing a few things at the moment. what im working on isnt actually anywhere near a finished state, I just wanted to know how to solve this to see if things like the collisions were working ok. more on that lower down. Id only be too happy for you to look at it once its nearer something i will actually use.)

 

Past this point everything you and Vlits said kind of went over my head a bit. not your fault. im still learning.

 

 

 

A good example of what chucksteel means is the esp for my Repaired Red Rocket mod.

 

I had a look, the data details more or less show the same i created in my plugin following chucksteel's instructions. I only want to affect the player settlement building though so it was slightly more condensed.

 

 

A better way to do it (with no identical-to-master ITM records), is to make some edits to the relevant Cell records directly. This can't be done in the CK, to the best of my knowledge (Bethesda doesn't like you to be able to mess with that sort of thing, as it would indicate their way isn't always the best way). You want to delete the VISI, RVIS, PCMB, and XCRI (and XPRI, where relevant) data from the cell record you want your changed mesh to show up in.

 

Now this is where i got a bit lost. I havent the slightest idea where to find those things, what they are or how to delete them and more importantly what this is for and why I need to do it?

 

 

In addition to not leaving extra ITM records in, this will let your mod still work even if someone has the bUseCombinedObjects=0 ini edit, which disables the previs part of the workaround

 

Can you ellaborate on this? again i did a search on it but nobody seems to use layman terms an im really struggling.

 

 

Just an FYI the only recurring bug I have is when I forget to set the "no Pre Vis" flag which is why some but not all have the occlusion issues. Other then that your 100% correct and I was trying to keep it simple to start with so the issue could be seen and understood.

 

Edit: another FYI I've also found that if you set the "No Pre Vis" Flag without making an edit to disable the Pre-combined meshes You will break sprinting in that area. I think it's a 3x3 grid that will have sprinting disabled. Haven't fully tested but it feels right from trying to figure the issue out.

 

Where do i set the no Pre-Vis flag, and what is it for? what does the bug do if it is left?

 

 

 

Also (and I'm about to change the subject a little here but better than starting a new topic I think), now that I can finally test my objects in game. Ive noticed that the collision is a little undesirable. It seems to be present and doing what basic collision should do but very more aesthetic things like shooting at it dont seem to present the same results that the vanilla has. namely the bullet holes, explosion marks.. etc..

Do you have any ideas as to why this might be the case?

I have been using 3dsmax with the havok tools... etc...(as outlined in the only tutorial/guide videos i know of)

[chucksteel]

People will say the mod is "Dirty" They see the ITM, ITM's are Basically "Non-Edits" and mostly caused by accident.

 

What I would do in your case is to.

 

1. set the original form you want to replace to "Initially Disabled"
2. Duplicate it back in the same spot
3. Rename the duplicate so something mod specific
4. change the file path to your replacer mesh
5. Save as a new form.

This will keep people from hounding you about "Dirty Edits" and keep them from breaking the mod by cleaning out the ITM's themselves.

 

Don't worry or think about the "No Pre-Vis" Stuff I talked about. That was for Vlits and I should have talked to him about it in a PM or another thread. i didn't mean to confuse you and it is nothing you would likely need in your mod.

[Impytus]

People will say the mod is "Dirty" They see the ITM, ITM's are Basically "Non-Edits" and mostly caused by accident.

 

What I would do in your case is to.

 

1. set the original form you want to replace to "Initially Disabled"
2. Duplicate it back in the same spot
3. Rename the duplicate so something mod specific
4. change the file path to your replacer mesh
5. Save as a new form.

This will keep people from hounding you about "Dirty Edits" and keep them from breaking the mod by cleaning out the ITM's themselves.

 

 

So what you are saying is that there is nothign inherently wrong with ITMs, they wont break the game or reduce performance. Its just that people don't like them because they interefere with their own mods?

 

 

One other question, the steps above, are they needed if something else is changed in the cell besides the replacer? I suspect i will need to anyway. like for instance, the bush that is growing on the roof. that will need to go. Will the mod still be dirty and need the above steps doing if i deleted the bush?

 

 

Also did you have any thoughts on my collision problem?

[chucksteel]

No they won't break the game mess up save they just conflict with other mods.

 

 

Your other question, That all depends on what they do and edit in the cell could be a conflict both ways (ITM or Disable and replace) But you need to make an edit to get your replacer to show.

[VIitS]

Sorry about getting a bit technical, the things I mentioned are not visible in the CK. They aren't really needed for the most part, the method chucksteel mentioned will work fine for your mod.

 

The previs stuff me and chucksteel mentioned doesn't matter for your mod, since you are editing a mesh and not deleting one. Unless you significantly alter the shape of the building (by removal, adding stuff can't cause previs issues), you can ignore it.

 

For the collision, I think you have to create the different collisions (wood, metal, etc...) individually, and combine them all in your model (either using 3ds max, or nifskope). This is based off of the only meshes I have seen made using Bethesda's tools (which are not even close to the ones Bethesda themselves use, no matter what they say).

 

Also, if the mesh you are editing includes the supports for the rocket, you won't be able to shoot through the "holes" unless you edit the mesh to actually have holes. Currently it uses something related to alpha channels to make that part transparent, and when using their plugin it won't be able to tell that there should be no collision there.

 

If you want an attempt at a clearer explanation:

 

 

bUseComebinedObjects=0 is a line people can add to their Fallout4Cutom.ini file, and it will disable combined meshes in the entire game. This causes performance issues, but is useful for people who use mods like Conquest that let you build a base anywhere (and thus, it would be helpful to be able to scrap everything everywhere).

 

The method chucksteel recommends (which is the one I use in my own mods) makes use of a workaround Bethesda built into the game engine. For some reason I don't understand, Bethesda made it so the workaround is disabled if you have the above mentioned ini edit. Because the workaround disables "occlusion planes"*, this can cause problems for scrap mods especially that make use of the workaround.

 

Again, this is only really a problem for mods that remove/move or let you move/remove objects. If you are just editing a mesh (without introducing holes in formerly blocking walls), you can use the workaround without worry.

 

*occlusion planes are a performance saving method the engine uses, it causes things that would be blocked from view to not be rendered. This is easier on your computer, but can cause things to flicker in and out if the object that was attached to the occlusion plane is removed while the plane stays there, since you will be able to see the things disappearing.