Kraeten

Well in my perspective, the distinction is rather important. From Torygg's advisers we learn the young King admired and respected Ulfric. So to see Torygg's absence in this regard is rather interesting. Was Torygg disappointed to see Ulfric arrested or was he torn between duty to his people and his duty to the Empire? We just cannot know. Not with so little information available regarding the character. The game itself just doesn't offer anything about Torygg regarding the Markarth incident. I'm sure you own the game yourself, these wiki's are made from the same information available to you. When you look at the Markarth Incident, there really aren't many sources to research. Now we get into some very strong opinion territory. On one hand, you can certainly argue that Torygg was a weak and stupid king. On the other hand, should he really die for that? This is a tricky question especially if we believe Torygg's advisers, who claim that Torygg would have seriously considered splitting Skyrim off from the Empire if Ulfric had simply asked him to. Which begs the question, could the civil war have been avoided altogether? And if it could have, what does that make Ulfric? Does he truly value the lives of his countymen? Or is he really just after power?

Considering scripture/religion has little in the realm of empirical evidence in support of it, I'd rather you didn't use it as proof to back up your argument. And FYI, evil isn't a point of view. All the cultures around the world reach very similar conclusions regarding morality. Theft, Murder, Cannibalism, we tend to frown on these things. :tongue:

And Torygg, to the best our knowledge, was silent. This isn't encouraging evidence, but it is different from the claim that Torygg had Ulfric arrested by his personal order which is all I was getting at.

In this case, what made the one I used more accurate was the fact I had first hand knowledge of exactly where they were getting the information. I simply used their words, since the Markarth Incident was so succinctly explained. This really isn't one of my best explanations, I'm embarrassed to say. :sweat: Well, I'm rather fond of this Skyrim wiki here. All of the important articles have a lot of discussion behind them, making them pretty accurate. Actually, their "Markarth Incident" is quite well put together.

Torygg is of course High King, but he's done little to nothing in terms of actually using his power. For the most part, governance of each hold is left entirely to the respective Jarl. I've played through the Stormcloak quest line a couple of times now, and there is no evidence whatsoever that Torygg was the one who ordered Ulfric's arrest. The responsibility for that lies entirely on Jarl Igmund. The game makes that clear in its own way too, since the Dominion wasn't threatening Torygg for the Talos worship but was instead specifically threatening the Reach. Igmund himself doesn't mention the High King in any way when he speaks of the Markarth Incident. Wiki's can be edited by anyone, so its no surprise some of the pages like the one you cited are a bit dubiously written. I myself edited the UESP skyrim wiki where it was once written that Ulfric was a Thalmor agent, and obviously that was wrong.

I think you're getting Torygg confused with Jarl Igmund here. When Ulfric rescued Markarth from the Forsworn, he demanded Igmund allow Talos worship in return. When the Dominion learned of this bargain and threatened to wage war on the Reach Jarl Igmund capitulated to the Thalmor. Again, that was Jarl Igmund who had him arrested. "When the Thalmor discovered the presence of Talos worship, they demanded the arrest of the Nord militia. Igmund was forced to arrest Ulfric and his men or risk outright war over religious conflict."

You certainly could say that, and I could just as easily counter with the fact the Stormcloaks are fighting not just the Imperials but their fellow country men...and thus weakening both the Empire and Skyrim. Plenty of Nords are still loyal to the Empire, if they weren't there wouldn't be much of a civil war. ;)

Care to explain your reasons in greater length? As they are now, I find them rather poor. The Vampire Lords you're going to be fighting in the DLC aren't a bunch of sparkly Twilight fruitcakes. These are monsters in every sense of the word. They don't just devour your blood, but your very soul. To say "I don't want to exterminate all of them", shows you either give them some unwarranted sympathy or quite frankly you don't understand them. The Dawn Guard meanwhile are doing what is simply the sensible thing, defending mortal life by ruthlessly fighting the immortal undead that would prey on them given the chance. In good classic vampire stories, there is little to no moral grayness in the conflict. Vampires takes the lives of humans to prolong their own. They're evil. The Civil War in Skyrim on the other hand is ENTIRELY different. Both sides are guilty of their own crimes, and you can have a sound moral reason for joining either side. Stormcloaks want the freedom to rule themselves and worship Talos. They want to cast out the Thalmor. There's no escaping the fact Ulfric is a racist however, and more importantly he is more or less responsible for the civil war. From Toygg's councilmen it is made clear Torygg admired Ulfric, and would have likely helped him if the ambitious fellow had only asked. Yet Ulfric didn't, instead killing the young High King and sparking a bloody war that might very well have been avoided altogether. Then we have the Empire. The empire built by Tiber Septim, AKA Talos. Yes they signed the wretched White Gold Concordant, but by doing so they may very well have saved many lives. And unlike the Nords of Ulfric's Stormcloaks the Empire strives to make a society fit for everyone. They've certainly fallen under hard times, but is that reason enough to abandon the Empire? The answer to that isn't easy. Maybe you should do some reading into the lore surrounding the civil war, to help give you some much needed perspective. The vampire vs dawnguard conflict just isn't comparable to the civil war.

Uh, prove it? Ulfric doesn't like foreigners this is true, but he has never abused them. The worst treatment a foreigner can expect is to be ignored. This isn't a good trait, but it really isn't that big of a fault either. So, you think foreigners being ignored is worse than allowing Thalmor agents to violently interrogate/kill your people at will? That's what you're arguing. You assume incorrectly. Ulfric simply doesn't care for foreigners. If he truly took some perverse pleasure in the suffering of elves, he wouldn't allow them to live within his city. Or anywhere near it.

Torygg was either a coward or a stupid boy. Either way he's unfit to rule. A true High King of Skyrim wouldn't leave his people at the mercy of Thalmor agents. Nor would a true Emperor for that matter. Frankly, I don't see where the animosity towards Ulfric comes from. He isn't a homicidal racist. You can point to his poor treatment of foreigners all you want, at the end of the day no one is forcing them to stay in Skyrim.

The king of the north theme certainly entices me most...but then again I love all things heavy armor so I'm a bit biased. :D Whatever you decide, I'm sure it'll be great.

Oh, so Ebony/Imperial/Glass/Leather armor is properly styled for rough and frigid Skyrim? Please. The armor styles in Skyrim are hardly consistent. Fact of the matter is, Steel Plate armor in Skyrim is quite knightly so any of the EXCELLENT medieval themed mods from Oblivion would fit right in more or less. If you want to talk about lore, you should be raging at the gazillion lingerie mods before coming here with such skepticism. I apologize if this comes off as rude. Addressing the topic itself, I agree the tda armory would be a fantastic addition.

Hello there, I would like to think this mod request is a simple one but I'll let you decide. Could someone make a mod which allows the female version of the ancient nord helmet to be wearable by males? IMO it is the best version by far. Thanks for stopping by.

While there have been some excellent plate armor mods like the Hedge Knight armor and Baratheon armor both of which were made by the talented hothtrooper44...none of them have quite sated my considerable appetite for heavy plate. Over the months since the CK's release I've seen some individuals importing mods from Oblivion which got me thinking. Could one of you import the Shiny Knight armor from the tda Armoury? It was easily my favorite armor back in Oblivion, and I'd love to don it again in Skyrim. Here's the armor as it appeared in Oblivion. As you can see, it was really well modeled. Thank you for stopping by. :smile: http://i804.photobucket.com/albums/yy327/Adamant19/25332-3-1245730475.jpg

Oh wow, keep up the spectacular work. :woot:

It's not about sense. It's about a bunch of pathetic morons who enjoy having their character look like a porn star/hentai character. Frankly, I wouldn't be angry about it if it wasn't for the fact people are actually voting for these stupid mods. This SMUT doesn't deserve to be on the front page! For crying out loud just go to a freaking porn website to get your rocks off, instead of flooding the nexus with stupid lingerie mods.