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... and this is where I drop out. Have fun with your illusory crusade. Lisnpuppy, thank you for the kind words. It means a lot. :smile: fck it im off too..back home to moddb. you sort your own crusades out. EDIT: well s#*! that was a mistake to post my email here. now i got to change it. PS. just saw this video that someone linked me and that there is no Kabals going on here is such BS. apparently it even has a name AKA "the modders forum" Please delete my account. i do not wan´t anything to do with this site anymore.

First, you've already spoken out against the person in question. Secondly, Dark0ne / SirSalami isn't the person you need to talk to in order to "name drop" anyone - it is the person you're conversing with in PM that would need to give their OK. And if you're not here to stir up a hornet's nest, you're doing a poor job of it. :tongue: oh so there is a hornet´s nest here? that was what i was trying to verify. well then something is wrong in the vicinity.

I've been pushing this so far because it is what the law affords us. I'm going to defend the rights I have under the law because that is the only protection we have for our work. And again, you keep talking about this well-connected "someone" but you won't tell us who it is. All you are giving us is baseless conjecture and you're making outlandish claims to boot about a "kabal". If Dark0ne or SirSalami tells me that it is ok to name drop people and if that is required of me to defend myself then i will. But i am not here to start a war of stir up a hornets nest. i simply just want to do a bit of fallout modding while i wait for Bannerlords to release.

I don't know where you're getting this idea of a "kabal" from, but it doesn't exist. And your overall concern has no evidence - no one that I know of in the community is going to come after you for something as simple as the code snippet you posted / created, unless you name that person that you apparently had a PM fight with. No one should come after you if you recreate a mod they created, so long as you either get permission to use their assets or you recreate everything yourself. From my point of view, with the knowledge I currently have, you're just tilting at windmills. And if you want to share your mods on "alternative channels", go right ahead. No one is stopping you. But if you intend to use those "alternative channels" to flaunt copyright and permissions, you won't have anyone to defend you when those DMCA takedown notices fall into your inbox (or the inbox of the hosting provider). If that is all true - then great! i have no issues. That there is no kabal and that i am just tilting at windmills is exactly what i wan´t to hear. but i am not sure if i am convinced just yet. think i still probably like to hear from SirSalami or Dark0ne. and maybe you like to explain why you have been pushing this so far? when someone "well connected" mod author that is apparently associated with this Elionara/Mod drop gate thingy comes to talk copyright with a nobody like me and issues take down threats for things that i have not even published yet shortly after our public discussion, then it is easy to make assumptions. AND IF i am not wrong - then i think it is really important to have this discussion to really make clear what rules applies to prevent abuse.

I have not simply copy/pasted any ones code. The example i posted came straight from my head, and i wrote it specifically to raise debate as i know it is part of content that your kabal group of people attempts to claim ownership of. I learned papyrus by reading Tutorials posted on this site, watching youtube and by watching other modders. so If i continue too script then i have no doubt that there is going to be many more occasions where i stumble on code used by others. I do not mind seeking permission for major things, but if this is going to be a concern for every single little thing that i want to include in my mods then i feel that is a major issue for my creative process, and if so i would much rather go back to the way we used to do it before modding had gained acceptance and share my mods on alternative channels while claiming fair use until the DMCA notice hits, rinse and repeat. Thanks allot Lady Milla. are you saying that since my script is a method of operation and the only way to achieve the end result that would make it ok? If so that would be great news. i just can´t believe it that you try to push it this far. there is not going to be any more mods on the nexus if you guys start pulling this. :ermm: though i will still make an attempt to argue that changing 2 out of 6 lines in a script would be considered substantial, and therefor making it into a original. . it sure is more than what Marcel Duchamp did to Mona Lisa. But i need to wait for after the weekend to get some more legal advice. Thanks for the reply linspuppy. I would love to talk to SirSalami or Dark0ne. but i hope that you can see that this is a rather public issue and just not a private issue of mine. hence why i brought it here. and i think it would be great if SirSalami or Dark0ne could come here to address the issue as i am sure i am not the only one that does not enjoy feeling a knife on the throat for just creating simple mods. the praxis of this kabal that attempts to pool their mod resources together in order to block other modders not on their white-list i also think needs addressing. I understand that they are only doing it for fear of piracy, but really is this the community that you want? it leaves little power left for management, and i would almost describe it as a "soft" hostile-takeover. TLDR; i would like to see a real public debate about this. Then contact them as they are the only ones that can give you a final answer on the matter. You can debate all you like but their answer (which may be yes, it is fine to put the mod up, I can't say) will be the final word of your particular situation. I have sen´t a PM to SirSalami and asked if he or Dark0ne could address this Topic. but regarding me i would not say that there is any "particular issue", this is a General issue. and IF i decide to host my mods here then i would ofc adjust to their ruling.

all laws are subject to interpretation, so yes they do change. how much more are we going to disagree on ?

i just can´t believe it that you try to push it this far. there is not going to be any more mods on the nexus if you guys start pulling this. :ermm: though i will still make an attempt to argue that changing 2 out of 6 lines in a script would be considered substantial, and therefor making it into a original. . it sure is more than what Marcel Duchamp did to Mona Lisa. But i need to wait for after the weekend to get some more legal advice. Thanks for the reply linspuppy. I would love to talk to SirSalami or Dark0ne. but i hope that you can see that this is a rather public issue and just not a private issue of mine. hence why i brought it here. and i think it would be great if SirSalami or Dark0ne could come here to address the issue as i am sure i am not the only one that does not enjoy feeling a knife on the throat for just creating simple mods. the praxis of this kabal that attempts to pool their mod resources together in order to block other modders not on their white-list i also think needs addressing. I understand that they are only doing it for fear of piracy, but really is this the community that you want? it leaves little power left for management, and i would almost describe it as a "soft" hostile-takeover. TLDR; i would like to see a real public debate about this.

well yea, i need to find some other lawyers then as my current ones does not seem to have a clue. we work in the music industry where things work differently. by the way the EULA from the creationkit also came up in the argument as a way to intimidate me but i suspect this is mainly just a way for Zenimax to make authors eligible for the distribution of the mods, as the owner they are and any possible publishers would also have to take responsibility. and by so zenimax can take direct action without having to go thru litigation. and if it is like you say and only proprietary assets are eligible, then i guess i was right since the eula would mean nothing to an author that holds on to it unless his mods also contains custom assets.

thanks allot for confirming, i was surprised to learn that both syntax and semantics does not hold, but i was just googling around and it seems you are right. from https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ61.pdf but after reading this i feel confused in another way, what exactly then entitles the copyrightable expression in a program? is it only the "hard assets" and the aesthetics in a program that is eligible ? there must be something, else it would just be a giant free for all where the only way to protect yourself would be thru encryption. ?

So i got into a private debate with one of the big guys from this site about copyright after some comments i posted here earlier. now i am getting told that i can´t even use a simple script like, Event OnTriggerEnter(ObjectReference akActionRef) ObjectReference.SetOpen(True) EndEvent Event OnTriggerLeave(ObjectReference akActionRef) ObjectReference.SetOpen(False) EndEvent because that is part of other mods uploaded on this site that has agreement of shared assets and intellectual property, and if i do he will make sure that my mods are taken down. (apparently he is very connected) i disagree and argue that changing the name of the ObjectReference would make it into a derivative work , voiding any previous claim and making it mine. then he argues that it is not the script itself that is copyrighted but the function, and yes you can copyright a function, but to do that you also need to own the mechanic that governs it, and in this case it is the language, and a language can never be copyrighted because it is a fluid medium of expression. but as i put that as my argument he states that because it is in scripted form it is no longer fluid, and yes, he is kind of right about that. you can copyright chunks of language by fixating it. but i point out again that if it would get changed again that voids the previous rule. but he just argues that no i am not allowed to change it now, while i still think that the rule about derivative work applies and that he needs to get a patent for the script if he wants to avoid any tamper with it. at this point we get no further and we just agree to disagree. but if he is right then that is very bad news for all modders here. it means no mods can share functions with each other, even if it is just such a simple function like remote opening a door. :confused: and the only hope we would have left is to claim "fair use", and that is defiantly not a silverbullet, not in court and especially as it seems not here on the nexus.

that was really good FKemman, thumbs up :)

I meant giving them gear with bat files oh i think you need to make that yourself as the item codes are dependent on your load order and can be unique to your game. here is how to do it- open the console and type: help "the name of the item you want to find" 4then look for the reference ID of the item and write it down. after that open a text file and add line equipitem "reference id of the item" without the " , for equip-able item´s or additem "reference id" "number of items" for standard items such as ammo. example: additem 0001f66b 5 ;.308 roundor cf "ObjectReference.AttachModToInventoryItem" "item to attach to" "mod to attach"to attach a mod to a item or weapon. example: cf "ObjectReference.AttachModToInventoryItem" 0011d3c7 2B000BB8save the txt file to your fallout data folder, open the the console and click on the npc to equip, then type "the name of your text file.bat"

here you go Addtofaction 1c21c 1 Addkeyword workshopallowcommand Addkeyword workshopallowmove setpv bcommandable 1 setpv ballowmove 1 setpv ballowcaravan 1

it is your rules and you have the right to choose whatever content you like to host of course, but i can´t help too think that the word "copyright" is being tossed around a bit willy-nilly around here. and i don´t think you should moderate your site under some kind of false pretense. especially not since claiming "fair use" has been the lifeline of this site since the cradle, it feels rather hypocritical. Good Reneer, you found the basics. but did you read it or did you just skim it? in any case let me help you bold some things out. To be covered by copyright, a work must be original and in a “concrete medium of expression. if you don´t want anyone to tamper with your intellectual property, then you need to get a patent for it. and no sane patent examiner is going to grant you one for intellectual property unless it is exceptionally unique or revolutionary.

Exactly my thoughts. As are mine. Which is why I'm not going to respond to someone who is so blatantly wrong. that´s a shame, i was about to bring out my finger warmers in preparation for debate here. I work as a publisher in the music industry by the way. Copyright and Intellectual property are some of my forte´s

Actually, this is completely wrong. Exhibit A, the Creation Kit End-User License Agreement: So, yes, mod authors do have copyright over their mods. does not seem like you know what Intellectual property means. Intellectual property only applies as it is in its unmodified state, and you can only claim a Intellectual property case if someone has taken your work as theirs without doing anything else to it, in other words a plain copy but as soon as they modify it in someway it ceases to be your property and it becomes theirs.

The way this community attempts to uphold these "fictional" copyrights really perplexes me sometimes. Legally non of the content uploaded in the Fallout section is personal property. it is all property of Bethesda. If someone want´s to go ahead and make an unofficial patch for a mod it is Bethesda they should go and ask, not some mod author that attempts to claim copyright of "their" content in violation of the game EULA. and permission already granted - so there so... ofc i will still abide by the community rules while i am here. but that does not mean that i support them.

Back to say what a lovely mod you got there. i sent you some endorsements. I ran it just fine at 60fps (limited) consistently. but that makes me a little worried as you said you had almost a 50% fps drop when running it. kind of makes me think that i have tweaked my system a little to much to be able to reference things...

I have an even lazier way of solving this. making duplicates with their own recipes felt like a huge headache and i see no reason why i should make it hard on myself. what i do is to batch reference enable parent everything that i want to be removable to an Xmarker, then have a terminal disable that marker and give the player a reasonable amount of scrap for disabling it. since i go heavy on layers when i am decorating this process is super easy, i tend to have separate layers for trash/furniture/tools ect, so it is just a matter of selecting all and do the batch reference, and it is easy to setup categories in the terminal for what the player wants to remove.

No that acctually helps, I am a mac guy never even used windows until I installed a bootcamp drive for FO3. I understood some of the technical stuff from your other posts but, I get lost when People start talking about their system spects and whatnot. :unsure: Glad that i could help :) If you want to know what a memory leak is then that is more like when something gets "stuck" in a loop. Like when you leave a program on and you notice that it starts eating more and more memory without you doing anything to it. But there are pretty good failsafes in most systems today to prevent that from happening, and i have not noticed and "real" memory leaks in anything for years.

If you haven't seen this thread you should check it out it contains everything we have learned about the system. Fallout 4 Optimization and Performance System Explained But this doesn't really explain how I could see this on Xbox in vanilla cells, I only run around 30 mods, My Beantown Interiors being the most demanding but, I have it fully optimized with new pre-combined meshes. It can happen in other places besides Ft Hagen, that was just the most memorable. I think it does, note here it is not "your" cell that is at fault, it is what happened before that kind of is the key. let me take you thru an example of what i think is happening. first lets think of the Vram as a basket. and when we are talking about culling it is not so important how large the basket is, but how fast we can put things out of it, how large the basket is only matters at the end. we enter a room and fill the basket with everything in it, we get 50 objects and our basket is halfway full. after that we move to the next room. the trip to the next room takes 1s. and we know we are going to fill the basket again so we should probably throw some things away to make sure we got room. but in 1s we only had time to throw away 20 objects, we also spared 5 special objects because we might need them again further down our trip, so in total we have 25 objects when we arrive to the next room. the next room is allot bigger and we get 60 objects from it, now we got a total of 85 objects and we move to the next room. this trip also only takes 1s, but this time we only had time to throw away 15 objects because we got 5 special useful objects again, and it took us sometime to decide what special objects we should keep from the ones we got from the first room and the last. we arrive to the next room with 70 objects. the last room is allot smaller than the others, and we only find 35 objects, but crap that is 5 more items than what we have room for, and BANG. here comes the slideshow as the system struggles with trying to figure out what to do. Fort hagen as you mentioned i know is an area with allot of objects, and allot of objects means that it has a higher chance of "tipping the basket" it might or might not depending on what you put in your basket previously and how much of it you had time to throw away while going there. sorry if it was very oversimplified. but i am sure now you get the gist. some people would call this a memory leak. but in reality it is a way modern systems optimize to keep the "travel time" low. memory leaks are something else and something that mainly happens in pre-historical systems.

thanks allot Payload i will check it out :) Speaking about Precombines by the way, that is something i cam currently toying with. and if the game indeed has Vram Culling issues then Precombines is something that should really help with that. it goes allot faster to cull 16 objects merged into one from memory than it is to dump 16 individual objects, and the way culling works it might also be that only 8 out of those 16 objects gets culled in one pass and the other 8 remains if they are not merged as one. so maybe this is something to consider when people are reporting slideshows in our mods. it could be that before they entered your cell they were in a cell with many individual objects or in a cell where the precombine system were broken.

that is pretty of interesting to hear that even Xbox vanilla can have those issues, it kind of reinforces my impression that the beth dev´s are taking shortcuts.

well in a perfect world i guess it would be completely avoidable, but culling issues tends to have so many variables to them depending on system setup that i think its very unlikely. I can elaborate a little bit more on what i think is going on if you like to get in deep, taken from my experience of modding other games. most games are designed to cull Vram on scene change, some do a full purge of the Vram but most only does culling to keep load times fast, and the stress of the memory low. and as i understand so does fallout. culling however has the drawback that it always keeps pieces behind that can eventually lead to bloat, and only with a perfect system setup where VRAM, RAM and HD works in perfect sync with no other processes disturbing it tends to work flawlessly. Now culling as the name suggest works by selective purging parts of the Vram rather than doing a full dump that is heavy and time consuming. and pieces that the system did not have time to purge in a designated time frame are put into que to get culled on the the next load, or they are kept around if the game thinks it may need them soon again. Here is where issues starts. this que system can get really messy depending on what system you have. (and a perfect system setup is not something that i think exists in the windows PC world) and in last few years with the introduction of SSD´s the problems with culling has actually gotten worse, some systems actually load faster than the time the GPU needs to cull the que. and one time in particular when this can leads to issues is when swapping between many other processes that hooks the GPU. like i for example think F4SE does, and this is what i think happens when people report those totally random slideshows, they are not random at all. it was some other process that just messed up the culling que by inserting itself into it. and this can ofc happen on any system it does not take much and you don´t need a SSD for it. but the problem can get significally worse with a fast HD and a slow GPU. letting the system pagefile handle some of the que instead to give the system some more time to sort itself can often prevent allot of such issues, but in many cases it will eventually lead to bloating anyway and it is rather common that people does not have their pagefiles setup for that task, or they rather skip it because they think running without a pagefile will prolong the life of their SSD. also not a good idea to rely to much on pagefiles if your HD is too slow. then there is also ofc the age old issue of game developers on their quest for faster load times that takes shortcuts when it comes to culling, sometimes neglecting to assign a que priority to things that otherwise should be culled. (and sadly i think bethesda are among those developers who attempts shortcuts) I have met game developers who thinks that if their game can run for more than a couple of hours without causing bloating that is perfectly fine. the average joe should not be playing longer than that anyways. that thinking ofc just amplified the problems with the introduction of SSD´s and GPU clocks that are not designed to handle their short load times. now lights and shaders in particular are something that usually has its own priority as the GPU reads that data often enough and tends to be culled last, so it is often a issue for bloating if the Vram never gets purged. and it used to cause so much issues that NVIDEA and AMD has attempted to tackle the problem with their shader cache technology, removing most of that load from the GPU and placing it in its own dedicated cache. unfortunately that rarely works out of the box and people have to go to their GPU control panel to set it up as NVIDEA and AMD is not really into collaboration. so there.. i usually think like you Redrocket and like to go for a happy medium. but i am not sure where that is here. some people who got a monster machine might get into severe culling problems by too many shadow casters, others who have setup their shader chache right might be able to run allot of them on a low end machine... so I kind of feel when it comes to PC modding maybe we could just wing it ?

Thanks allot for your input RedRocket. So if its an issue that can appear after time then i guess its a Vram issue. or more precise a Vram culling issue. If that is true then its an issue that is unavoidable even if you so only have one shadow caster, the player just have to play long enough to run into it. limiting the number of shadow casters should increase the time the player can play before he needs to restart the game, but so should limiting the overall Vram load of the cell do as well. Keep the overall Vram load of the cell low and you can get away with more shadow casting lights, and vice versa. does that sound about right?